Why not CIGS?

[TwilightZone]

Well... I finally got back to my project. I have a shiny new victron 150/70 laying here. And I got one panel attached to my backer with 100% coverage of thermally conductive tape. Some night when I have a moment I'm going to swing by to grab a couple tubes of dicor to seal around the edges. Then it will all be set up in a ground mount for testing before mounting. Hope mine live longer that the Rich's. They certainly don't appear to be manufactured similarly..

 

[kaid]

Bringing back this thread - I'm curious to hear recent experiences with CIGS panels. Has taping the edges prevented delamination? Rich Solar told me today that their inventory is the same manufacturing run as when this issue first came up but the tape seems to have resolved the issues from a return/warranty perspective.

And now we have BougeRV's recently introduced CIGS panels. I have a support email thread with them where they confirm their panels are manufactured by MiaSole and they have indicated that the MiaSole warranty (5 year workmanship, 20 year power) would apply to them, though I have not yet heard how to go about accessing it if needed. Unfortunately the support person I am talking to does not seem to be aware of delamination history, unsure whether that is due to the level of information support has or whether it's because these panels aren't any different than the Rich panels. They have said the panels are IP68 waterproof - but what does surviving 30 minutes submerged in water tell us about long term exposure to wet/damp environments that seems to be there recipe for delamination?

In any case, I'd love to hear any updates about their performance. While crazy expensive, they could be a great solution for curved installations like my fiberglass Scamp travel trailer.

 

[K8MEJ]

In any case, I'd love to hear any updates about their performance. While crazy expensive, they could be a great solution for curved installations like my fiberglass Scamp travel trailer.

You might also look at the Trailblazer series by Merlin Solar. They are PERC cells, not CIGS. They are also expensive, but less so than CIGS panels. I've only installed them once so I don't have any long-term recommendations for you. Just something else to consider.

 

[erickeezer]

BougeRV CIGS panel update from their support chat:

• 100 and 200 watt CIGS "adhesive" backed panels will be available mid-October 2022
• CIGS panels with drilled mounting holes will be available late-October 2022

You can reduce the CIGS cost like this: use BougeRV coupon code (12%-20% off), use a cash-back credit card (1-2% off), take the US federal Investment Tax Credit (30% off in 2022), use your state's incentives (6%+ off)

 

[Swagon]

Hi, just wondering about why CIGS panels haven't really taken off for RV use in particular.

I've seen that with many discussions of CIGS flexible solar panels that folks seem to get them conflated with some of the drawbacks of flexible crystalline panels, focusing on the 'flexible solar panel' part; namely that they're fragile and have low yield efficiency - but not necessarily...

CIGS seem to be:
* Durable - not prone to microcracking, cells are robust to the point of puncturing. Seems better suited to the 'rolling earthquake' of an RV roof.
* Efficient - while overall efficiency may be less than crystalline, they're more effective in the shade (one company even advertises that each cell has a bypass diode so you really only lose the power of the one shaded cell, not the whole string) - a trade-off that seems better for RV/vehicle use
* Better at handling high temperature power losses
* Better at utilizing a wider spectrum of light - more power production during overcast days and low sun angles
* Have warranties comparable to rigid crystalline panels

I've heard @Will Prowse mention them in passing in a video, I'd love to get a more in-depth analysis though - for my RV I've been hesitant to get flexible panels due to the drawbacks others have mentioned, and can't seem to commit to heavy rigid panels that will need to be drilled to my TPO roof, and may not do as well in shaded/overcast environments. The CIGS flexible panels seem to be the goldilocks solution...am I missing something?

I bought 2x 80W CIGS from Rich Solar. Put them on my DIY van. In less than a year, they were delaminating badly. When I bought them, there was no advice regarding this, but now they advise to seal all the edges once you’ve stuck them on your roof. Regarding shade and overcast, I did some testing, and they produce very little power (only a few watts) when partially shaded or on overcast days. It doesn’t seem any different from a crystalline panel. They are discrete and aerodynamic, though. However, even with sealing the edges, I’m not sure they will last 20 years. I am in process of putting on a Flat Line Van rack and two 100W mono panels. I bought the new Renogy 100w ones that are half-cell and 9 bus-bars, very similar to the new panels from BougeRV. Like most glass panels, they have a 25 year warranty. Rich Solar, by the way, I will never buy from them again. It was a nightmare to get them to honor their warranty. They right away said they would, but then they wouldn’t follow through. I had to call so many times and talk to management. I had to get angry to make them do anything. They suck. And also on every little order, such as for the cable glands, they would screw something up. They have lost all my future business.

 

[jameshowison]

Bringing back this thread - I'm curious to hear recent experiences with CIGS panels. Has taping the edges prevented delamination? Rich Solar told me today that their inventory is the same manufacturing run as when this issue first came up but the tape seems to have resolved the issues from a return/warranty perspective.

And now we have BougeRV's recently introduced CIGS panels. I have a support email thread with them where they confirm their panels are manufactured by MiaSole and they have indicated that the MiaSole warranty (5 year workmanship, 20 year power) would apply to them, though I have not yet heard how to go about accessing it if needed. Unfortunately the support person I am talking to does not seem to be aware of delamination history, unsure whether that is due to the level of information support has or whether it's because these panels aren't any different than the Rich panels. They have said the panels are IP68 waterproof - but what does surviving 30 minutes submerged in water tell us about long term exposure to wet/damp environments that seems to be there recipe for delamination?

In any case, I'd love to hear any updates about their performance. While crazy expensive, they could be a great solution for curved installations like my fiberglass Scamp travel trailer.

It would be helpful if they gave more guidance on which tape to use. I found that the eternabond tape stuck well to the fiberglass roof of our rPod, and stuck ok to the white sections of the CIGS panels, but stuck poorly to the blue panel edges (3 of 4 edges). The panels get very hot (in Texas sun) which may be another reason. I looked for high-temp pressure sensitive UV protected tape, but I couldn't find any supported for long-term exposure. Even the HVAC UV protection tapes are intended for reinstallation every few years. The UV stable building tapes are all black (open joint cladding) often with writing on them.

We caulked the edge of the panels with silicon caulk, reasoning that the goal is to stop water getting to the edges. That also helped with the issues we had with the butyl separating (on highly curved sections), forming fish-mouths. Driving with those seemed to cause them to grow. The silicon helped with that.

Unfortunately we have delamination that is spreading. It is worse on a flat section where I think water pooled from the rooftop RV AC (even though that edge was taped with eternabond. It's hard to know if "immediately and always" taped would have truly prevented this, but that advice wasn't available when we installed them. I know that taping or caulking once delamination starts has not seemed to stop it.

Note that the warranty on these panels is somehow only 1 year (!!!!) ... so if you have these installed you might want to stick a calendar alert in your calendar.

Another thing unrelated to delamination is that routing cables for these panels is irksome, since they don't have undersides to route. So you are either using many penetrations to bring the cables inside, or you are routing them on the surface. We did that and covered the cables with strips of eternabond. It's ok, I guess, but it's a bit ugly, sort of looks like scar tissue. Very hard to cover the MC4 connectors, needs a lot of tape. Also considered using conduit (or split UV stable PVC conduit), but it definitely ruins the smooth look and then you have to figure out how to bend the PVC to match the curve. The flexible cable covers, for TV cable routing etc, aren't UV stable. Ideas welcome!

I would avoid the super tough cables like temco, which was very hard to get to lay flat and fights the tape. Since the eternabond top is white, but the adhesive is grey this gets real ugly real quick (and picks up lots of pollen etc).

 

[erickeezer]

I read a study about possible CIGS delamination causes. From what I read, it happens from "moisture ingress" or moisture seeping in under the top layer of the panel. During manufacturing, if the vacuum laminating machine isn't hot enough or the top layer material is poorly manufactured, the seal can open to air and eventually moisture. Even a pin hole in the lamination can cause moisture to enter the panel after time. In the study, it started within 1000 hours of use inside an 85% humid, 90 degree controlled space. The power output was cut in half eventually.

I thought Trex Protect Butyl tape around the edges might work, but after reading your post, maybe not. This 3M Solar Edge Tape 1060 looks promising, since it's designed for solar panels. Not sure where to buy though...

 

[wmsilva]

I have just ordered 3 160 watt cigs panels from Rich. I am hoping that eternabond tape or Dicor around the edges will help prevent delamination. I am using a Renogy DC-DC with mppt which has a maximum input of 25V so BougeRV is out. I will eventually add more panels to a second mppt so depending on how these go I may try BougeRV next.
Rigid glass panels would be best from an energy standpoint but I am also concerned with weight and usable space on my smallish RV roof (Thor Vegas 25.3). I can occasional walk on the cigs with a soft soled shoe for maintenance so I can cover more usable space.

 

[curiouscarbon]

every one of my flexible cigs panels from richsolar have delaminated severely

 

[curiouscarbon]

the delamination on my richsolar cigs panels has only progressed about 2-3 inches inward max. hoping that applying some sealant into the gap around the edges might reduce further delamination. might try some eternabond on both front and back to further reduce additional delamination.

it's a shame because the panels are otherwise robust enough to walk on, and produce good power and are pleasantly resilient in dappled shade with power production.

good luck!!

 

[0rion]

OP here, nice to see this thread is still going. I stepped away from the discussion because to reevaluate our solar needs, but always remained curious of the CIGS performance vs the mono's - so in the end I got a couple 110w panels made by MiaSolé a couple months ago, the FLEX-02 110N model.

I wanted to do some performance testing vs my 200w rigid mono suitcase panels but the weather turned lousy here in Canada. I'll be sure to report back here in spring when we see the sun again!

Initial thoughts, I can see why folks might prefer mono cells with a higher efficiency...to me it didn't matter, you're paying for a 110w panel regardless, but it makes my CIGS panel very large at about 8 feet long! I'm ok with it though, more footprint to catch some stray rays.

Regarding the delamination issues that were discussed, I don't think this is a fault of CIGS-cell panels per se, but the manufacturing process of the panels. I noticed that my MiaSolé panels have a very strong seam around the edge and don't expect it to be an issue. Seems to be more of a brand thing.

Here's a pic of me test fitting them on our RV...

 

[curiouscarbon]

OP here, nice to see this thread is still going. I stepped away from the discussion because to reevaluate our solar needs, but always remained curious of the CIGS performance vs the mono's - so in the end I got a couple 110w panels made by MiaSolé a couple months ago, the FLEX-02 110N model.

I wanted to do some performance testing vs my 200w rigid mono suitcase panels but the weather turned lousy here in Canada. I'll be sure to report back here in spring when we see the sun again!

Initial thoughts, I can see why folks might prefer mono cells with a higher efficiency...to me it didn't matter, you're paying for a 110w panel regardless, but it makes my CIGS panel very large at about 8 feet long! I'm ok with it though, more footprint to catch some stray rays.

Regarding the delamination issues that were discussed, I don't think this is a fault of CIGS-cell panels per se, but the manufacturing process of the panels. I noticed that my MiaSolé panels have a very strong seam around the edge and don't expect it to be an issue. Seems to be more of a brand thing.

Here's a pic of me test fitting them on our RV...
View attachment 124848

thank you for sharing!

i got some miasolé 50W CIGS flex panels, and the seam appears to be more robust on those ones.

may i ask where you found/sourced the miasole 110W panels? kind regards!

 

[0rion]

thank you for sharing!

i got some miasolé 50W CIGS flex panels, and the seam appears to be more robust on those ones.

may i ask where you found/sourced the miasole 110W panels? kind regards!

DM Sent

 

[curiouscarbon]

thanks! much appreciated

 

[K8MEJ]

the delamination on my richsolar cigs panels has only progressed about 2-3 inches inward max. hoping that applying some sealant into the gap around the edges might reduce further delamination. might try some eternabond on both front and back to further reduce additional delamination.

it's a shame because the panels are otherwise robust enough to walk on, and produce good power and are pleasantly resilient in dappled shade with power production.

good luck!!

Even the Merlin Solar panels require seam sealing tape around the edge and they are advertised as fully waterproof. I would most definitely use Eternabond around all the edges at time of installation and you likely won't have any delamination issues.

 

[curiouscarbon]

Even the Merlin Solar panels require seam sealing tape around the edge and they are advertised as fully waterproof. I would most definitely use Eternabond around all the edges at time of installation and you likely won't have any delamination issues.

merlin solar is new to me, they sell CIGS panels?

thanks for the tip, eternabond seems like a popular choice to protect the edge seam seal. cheers

 

[K8MEJ]

merlin solar is new to me, they sell CIGS panels?

thanks for the tip, eternabond seems like a popular choice to protect the edge seam seal. cheers

No, they sell silicon PERC cell modules. Developed for the military but they also sell commercially.

 

[curiouscarbon]

thanks!

 

[curiouscarbon]

You need to get your money back. Let me know how they respond. Ask for Andy and show them this thread.

finally got around to emailing rich solar. got a positive initial response indicating the panels can be replaced, and also requesting photos. i will take new photos and send them along and update this thread with the result

 

[asot550]

OP here, nice to see this thread is still going. I stepped away from the discussion because to reevaluate our solar needs, but always remained curious of the CIGS performance vs the mono's - so in the end I got a couple 110w panels made by MiaSolé a couple months ago, the FLEX-02 110N model.

I wanted to do some performance testing vs my 200w rigid mono suitcase panels but the weather turned lousy here in Canada. I'll be sure to report back here in spring when we see the sun again!

Initial thoughts, I can see why folks might prefer mono cells with a higher efficiency...to me it didn't matter, you're paying for a 110w panel regardless, but it makes my CIGS panel very large at about 8 feet long! I'm ok with it though, more footprint to catch some stray rays.

Regarding the delamination issues that were discussed, I don't think this is a fault of CIGS-cell panels per se, but the manufacturing process of the panels. I noticed that my MiaSolé panels have a very strong seam around the edge and don't expect it to be an issue. Seems to be more of a brand thing.

Here's a pic of me test fitting them on our RV...
View attachment 124848

Reviving this thread as I just became aware of CIGS panels and the (honestly pretty amazing) various options out there with cell level bypass diodes. Were you able to run any tests with your CIGS panels in partial shading?

Just doing some math... half cut solar panels can help alleviate some of our shading problems in mobile applications, but they're still susceptible to losing entire strings with even small bits of shade. The 200w bougerv CIGS panels have a rated output of 0.09 W/in^2, rigid solar panels seem to average ~0.13 w/in^2. That means that you'll need roughly 1.44x the surface area for CIGS to match the rated output of the rigid. Put another way, the same area of CIGS will only generate ~70% the power of the rigid.

Now to think about shading performance:

A pole or branch that shades across the width of a half cut cell would lose you 50% of its output, but only 10-20% (maybe even less!) on the CIGS. In that scenario, your CIGS would give you 56-63% of "equivalent area" full-sun half cuts beating the rigid panels.

Vertical shading is much worse unfortunately. Half cut will only drop down to 66%, but you'd lose half on the CIGS (35% of full sun half-cut).

Angled shading is a mixed bag and really depends on the angle and width of the pole, you could drop down into the 0-33% range on the half cut, and maybe 0-50% on CIGS (0-35% of full sun half-cut).

Things like stray leaves and bird poop type shade can lose 33-50% of output (50-66% full sun) on half-cuts for relatively small amounts of shade on the panel. CIGS in those situation would only be losing 5-15% or so, for a total output of 60-66% of a full sun half-cut.

I think the only MAJOR winner is when you're parked under a canopy of leaves or other "diffuse" shade, where the half cuts drop down to near zero but the CIGS still give you 50% (35% full sun half-cut).

I was actually expecting the CIGS to put up a better fight, comparatively. They definitely perform better in most shaded situations, but their lower w/in^2 mitigates that nearly entirely. There's also the cost consideration, with CIGS panels being 3-5x or more of the cost I'm not sure they make much sense unless you've got some really curved surfaces like on a teardrop.

Anyone else have thoughts?