I will post some links tomorrow—not by my laptop. The decline of the vaccine is due to the reduction in antibodies. Antibodyproduction is the primary immune response. Our bodies naturally do not want to continue producing antibodies as it has an energy cost and if they no longer see the threat it will stop production. This is why most vaccines come in multiple doses. What you are talking about with flu is the memory effect. Even though the flu is not exactly the same our bodies will remember, (this is called the secondary immune system) and be able to produce antibodies much faster than an initial exposure. This is also why they think the vaccine works against serious disease even though the initial antibody response has waned. The body has kept a blueprint of how to produce those antibodies so it can reduce response time by 4-7 days. This is all the time needed with most Covid patients as they stop the infection before it cycles out of control.
Do We Need a Control Group?
- Thread starter Bob B
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Bob B
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I don't want to get too far into the weeds on this .... I think maybe we are thinking different about what makes up an immune system. To me, if the antibodies are fading and need to be boosted .... that means the immune response was getting weaker.
Yep. Wikipedia does a much better job than I can. If you are interested google immune response. What I am talking about is the difference between our innate immune system and our adaptive immune system. What you were describing with the flu is our adaptive immune system.
Bob B
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This post will inevitably take this thread in a different direction ..... but, I just want people to watch this video.
Robert F Kennedy Jr is far from a right winger ...... I would characterize him as a "classic liberal."
If you try to totally vilify Robert F Kennedy Jr before you have even had time to watch the video .... or immediately post a bunch of articles of what other people think about him and his new book .... I will simply ignore your comments.
I want to know what ... You .... think about this video after actually watching it.
Robert F Kennedy Jr is far from a right winger ...... I would characterize him as a "classic liberal."
If you try to totally vilify Robert F Kennedy Jr before you have even had time to watch the video .... or immediately post a bunch of articles of what other people think about him and his new book .... I will simply ignore your comments.
I want to know what ... You .... think about this video after actually watching it.
MurphyGuy
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What causes people to be so foolish as to take advice from celebrities or from those without education in the subject they are discussing?
If my position in an argument was so flawed and weak as to cause me to resort to posting information from unqualified sources, I think I might be inclined to reevaluate my position..
I don't need to watch the video.. Don't care if it agrees with my position or not.. I don't accept information from quack-a-doodles trying to broadcast their ignorant opinions.
Who's up next? Maybe Lindsey Lohan or Jennifer Aniston? Or maybe you should look up and see what Thor has to say about things he's not qualified or educated enough to discuss...
Bob B
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I should just ignore this post because you didn't watch the video ... If you actually had you would realize he is NOT a celebrity and knows more about what he is talking about than pretty much anyone else.
He is a lawyer who has successfully won suits against people like Monsanto.
It's a shame that some like you are SOOOO close minded and immediately jump to incorrect assumptions.
MurphyGuy
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That was never going to happen, and I knew it when I posted it. Of course, now that I turned the light on for you, that card probably won't work again..
Yes, he is a celebrity who uses the name of a very well known former president who was shot and killed to make his way through life. My guess is that he tried politics and failed so resorted to just being a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that....
He is an environmental lawyer.. if you have environmental questions that pertain to legal issues concerning...... wait for it.. THE ENVIRONMENT, then you might want to consult with him. Otherwise, he's just another quack-a-doodle on youtube spouting off his unqualified and uneducated opinion...
Maybe his opinion is correct, maybe its not.. don't know. I have an old fashioned clock that shows the correct time twice a day, that doesn't mean I look at it when I want to know what time it is.
I am very closed minded when it comes to science, facts, etc. "Keep an open mind" is just code for "You're an idiot and I want to fool you"...
Have you ever heard a scientist say "Keep an open mind" ??
Now, if you want to talk art, fashion, sexual experiences, music, or any of the other subjective areas of life, then I will keep an open mind..
The lesson: The source of the information is the most important part of the information, in the same way that the foundation of a building is the most important part of the building.. When you screw up the fundamentals, the rest is garbage.
Bob B
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You are beyond hope ...... and seem to be able to conjure up all kinds of fiction to keep yourself from being exposed to a little reality .... I'd be OK with that except that your goal seems to be to keep other people from that reality as well.
MurphyGuy
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I am beyond hope.. we can agree on that point.. You will NEVER EVER sucker me into your youtube reality of conspiracy garbage, so yes, give up hope because it won't happen.
Ask yourself if either one of those knuckleheads are scientists or medical doctors.... let me know what you come up with, then tell me why you would be willing to listen to someone's opinion when they have no education in the field they're discussing.
Bob B
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Discussing this further gives you credibility .... and compared to the 2 guys in the video ... you have none.
I am 1 minute in and the guy uses terminology that is unhelpful in any reasoned thought process. For example "a generated crisis", what does that even mean? 1 out of 6 Americans have had covid and 800,000 Americans have died from it. If you let it run it's cause the deaths would be in the millions. In comparison, 9/11 saw"only" 3000 Americans die.
September 11 attacks - Wikipedia
Just so we agree on the definition. "Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market, civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on limited government, economic freedom, political freedom, and cultural liberalism."
Classical liberalism - Wikipedia
I did not watch the the whole video, I hooked off after only 5 minutes.
I don't care if some one is left wing or right wing, I am quite happy to listen to reasoned arguments from ALL sides, but judging from the little I saw, that video is made by anti vaxers for anti vaxers. To date I have not seen a single valid argument why you would not want the vaccine. The arguments for vaccination is that the unvaccinated are ten times more likely to die from covid
BTW, I had my booster yesterday, (a month early) as I am out of the country for some time. I was motivated to take it sooner(6 months) rather then later (9 months) after listening to the crazy conspiracy theories by anti vaxers and secondly I would have had to take my booster abroad and a I suspect that a few government employees, in two countries, would have to try to square up the documentation, or I could have just taken a 4th dose.
Bob B
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The video isn't about wanting .... or not wanting to take the vaccine ... another bad ASSumption.I am 1 minute in and the guy uses terminology that is unhelpful in any reasoned thought process. For example "a generated crisis", what does that even mean? 1 out of 6 Americans have had covid and 800,000 Americans have died from it. If you let it run it's cause the deaths would be in the millions. In comparison, 9/11 saw"only" 3000 Americans die.
September 11 attacks - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Just so we agree on the definition. "Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market, civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on limited government, economic freedom, political freedom, and cultural liberalism."
Classical liberalism - Wikipedia
I did not watch the the whole video, I hooked off after only 5 minutes.
I don't care if some one is left wing or right wing, I am quite happy to listen to reasoned arguments from ALL sides, but judging from the little I saw, that video is made by anti vaxers for anti vaxers. To date I have not seen a single valid argument why you would not want the vaccine. The arguments for vaccination is that the unvaccinated are ten times more likely to die from covid
BTW, I had my booster yesterday, (a month early) as I am out of the country for some time. I was motivated to take it sooner(6 months) rather then later (9 months) after listening to the crazy conspiracy theories by anti vaxers and secondly I would have had to take my booster abroad and a I suspect that a few government employees, in two countries, would have to try to square up the documentation, or I could have just taken a 4th dose.
Hedges
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But it needs to be double-blind.
The ones who got saline only would qualify (you know, who got saline because it would be suspicious if everybody started dying at the same time.)
Although admittedly, to the unvaccinated, being unvaccinated is perfect for exhibiting the placebo effect.
Certainly immunity waned from the initial shots. 3 or 4 weeks was known to be short before it was used, but enough to get a boost.
Maybe with the booster at 6 ~ 8 months, protection will be permanent. More likely, antibodies always wane, but T-cells are forever.
Could be constant re-boostering will be the official position until the pandemic fades (or the administration changes, whichever comes first.)
The unfortunate problem is that even though T-cells kick in to fight off the infection, it still has about as much chance as leaving you with Long Covid as if you were unvaccinated.
A vaccine teaches your immune system so it can respond more quickly to the disease. If the virus/bacteria wasn't already multiplying inside you, there wouldn't be anything to fight off. Unlike some slow-moving illnesses, this one manages to cause symptoms and sometimes damage before the immune system defeats it.
I don't think that invalidates it as a vaccine.
At least with Chrome on Windows ...
^a ^c, open a Wordpad blank document, ^p
Enjoy reading plain text with no pictures or advertisements.
MurphyGuy
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You want to talk about credibility?
It would seem your credibility is in need of repair, not mine.
Your statements are not credible so it really isn't a surprise you post youtube videos with characters who are also not credible.
Birds of a feather...
Personal choice based on individual circumstances and weighing relative risk. If you don't get the vaccine you might get COVID and you might even die from it. If you do get the vaccine you still might get COVID but you probably won't die, or you might experience side effects from the vaccine itself. Both choices carry some level of risk.
Some people get COVID and barely know they have it. These people tend to be young, healthy, and are not overweight [one of the more serious comorbidities]. If a person is in that group they may view their risk of remaining unvaccinated as lower than that of putting what they see as an unnecessary drug into their bodies.
I do not see this as difficult to understand even though I made the choice to get vaccinated.
My doctor is in the best position to asses that risk. However from my own observations there is no age group where the risk of taking the vaccine outweighs the risk of not getting the vaccine, not even close.
Both the vaccinated and unvaccinated can get covid and die from it, the unvaccinated are over 10 times likely to die from it (2%)
Even the vaccinated have a 98% chance of surviving it, so you probably won't die, question is if you prefer a 98% chance of survival over a 99.8% chance of survival.
What side effects?
The risk of taking the vaccine is so small it is nearly impossible to detect.
Very true, the vaccinated are even more likely not to have symptoms.
My sister in law got it in April this year and nearly died, she is still on supplemental oxygen, her husband who is roughly the same age, was asymptomatic.
They may view that, but they'd be wrong, the data is out there.
I tried to explain this before, fear is a powerful emotion. For example I do not fear death, but I am terrified of heights. When people are led to believe the vaccine is not safe (it is safe) it is difficult to take that step. I recognized that my fear is irrational and confront my fear, sadly lots of people are not able to and miss out on some amazing views.
My problem is the misinformation around the pandemic and the vaccine, not the right of people to accept or reject the help that is offered by our respected governments and medical professionals.
Hedges
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Do you find that your doctor knows as much about your body, or even about Covid, as you do?
In all fields I think many people are just technicians, or operators, who look at a dial and turn a screw according to instructions. Doctors no exception. A good doctor is of course good.
It isn't clear to me that for children, especially teen males, that risk from Covid outweighs risk from vaccine.
Perhaps the issue is what percentage of injections enter a vein. The procedure was deliberately dumbed down so all patients get equal treatment, rather than some receiving an injection performed according to best practices.
For the elderly with comorbidities, quite clear.
That would be the U.S. figure?
Wonder why it is the U.S. has > 10% of Covid deaths but 4% of population?
Is that due to underreporting? Overreporting? Poor diet?
One of the "debunked" anti-vaxer claims is that the hospital & ICU deaths are caused by Remdesivir.
Their claim that it killed 54% of Ebola patients is of course bunk. If Ebola kills 90% without treatment but about 50% when treated with Remdesivir, it would seem the drug saved net lives. It could be the drug kills a percentage with certain organ issues, and should only be used when risk from the illness is much greater. Like all other evaluations, we need a control group. Probably there is better treatment for Covid patients than one-drug-fits-all.
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
The problem with many doctors and hospitals today is they no longer practice medicine but instead have become revenue generators. The new Mercedes, the fancy house with swimming pool and grand piano, the trophy wife, etc.
At one point a few years ago, I had a doctor appointment at least once a week for 2 years. In that time, I experienced some doctors that excel at their craft, others I wouldn't take my dog to. The best live a simple life, are interested in their patients. The others are merely looking at the financial side.
When you understand this, it becomes much easier to see why you see the current situation.
At one point a few years ago, I had a doctor appointment at least once a week for 2 years. In that time, I experienced some doctors that excel at their craft, others I wouldn't take my dog to. The best live a simple life, are interested in their patients. The others are merely looking at the financial side.
When you understand this, it becomes much easier to see why you see the current situation.
