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Best solar pipe heating system for winter?

BPeachy89

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Dec 8, 2021
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Hello all,

My fiance has always dreamed of living off grid and we are looking for plots in northern Wisconsin. We know it gets pretty cold in the winter and want to know what is recommended for pipes leading to a well so they don't freeze in the extreme temperatures. I looked at pipe tape on Amazon but we don't really want to run the risk of it failing and having to go through the pain of digging it up to replace it if that happened. Any and all advise on winter solar heating is greatly appreciated!
 
want to know what is recommended for pipes leading to a well so they don't freeze in the extreme temperatures.
Typically here in Vermont you bury the well water pipe very deep. Under driveways frost can go as deep as 8’ to 10’ so you avoid that. 8’ burial with 2” of foam board over the pipe is roughly equivalent to 10’ of burial, and you bring the pipe up under the slab or basement floor so that it typically won’t ever freeze.
Heating to avoid freezing uses a lot of energy and that may not be sufficient anyway so a deep burial makes the most sense.
Is this a dug, surface well? Or a drilled pumped well, or artesian? A dug well designed properly for water pipe depth can be accomplished but you have to plan well. Well diggers and drillers usually can handle the local needs.
 
My well pipe is made from pex 1” pipe and is sitting on solid rock 24/30” down .
My well is about 800 feet .
I get below 0 temps for a few weeks every year .
My well head is enclosed and insulated
the pipe is covered in insulation 4‘ pieces taped together and that runs thru 4” pvc pipe from under the garage floor
15’+- to the well head .
The pvc ic buried in sand and 3” of Lowe’s poly styrene is over the top about 4‘ wide I just did not want to blast or jack hammer the rock out .
I pump into a tank in the house so if the pipe freezes all the Pressure should be relieved so I’m hopping the pipe won’t split .
My cabin is not heated but is heavily insulated and the pipes get drained this time of year .
I think if some one was using water a few times a day it would warm the water up enough to keep it from freezing .
If the water freezes they make a heat cable that slips into the pipe 1” or larger and can run to the well head but not thru the pitiless adaptor in a drilled well .
The cable only heats in the area that is below freezing and turns it self off /on Automatically .
You just add a tee in the line with the heat cable all hooked up and plug it in .
I think it cost about 300 bucks .
I’m off grid so I may just plug it in to thaw it out once frozen , it dosent use much power but I would use it with the generator when charging the battery’s .
 
Tad further North than anyone in the US (except Alaska).
Frost Depth can reach 4' deep here.
1" Pex is within an insulated conduit pair, 5' deep from Pumphouse/Powerhouse to house. This was done as there is an electrical conduit running within the same channel.

Common practice here is to bury at least 5' deep. IF not possible then either enclosing "Conduit" within Foam Insulation or placing a frost barrier sheet above the pipes works quite well and commonly done. Frost Barrier is a 2" Thick 2' Wide XPS Foam Sheet directly over the pipes which cuts frost creep (soil must be well drained or ice formations can be a problems, this is subjective to land in which it is installed).

Conduit ?
In this particular instance, we use 4" or 6" Non-Corrugated O-Pipe as shown below, In my installation I run dual 6" pipe, 1 runs the water lines inside and the second for the electrical (all wires are NMWU Rated).
1639062988185.png
 
Always, always, always bury pipes below the frost line. In northern Wisconsin that's up to 80" deep:

Your local building codes may provide guidance or requirements. Whoever drills your well will do this automatically - you'll have to give them special instructions if you want the pipe buried above the frost line, and they probably won't warranty their work if you do.

If you plan on digging/drilling the well yourself, and want to do it cheaply without a lot of hand digging, then I can understand the desire to heat the pipe, but I'll tell you now - it will eventually freeze, and you'll end up digging it out and replacing some or all of it at some point in the future. The heating cables have a limited lifetime, and everything breaks down over time, not to mention power problems. For instance, in the dead of winter you're going to get maybe 3-4 hours of quality daylight. If you have a long pipe that's poorly insulated, it may take hundreds of watts to keep it from freezing. That means your solar array and battery has to work correctly, in sub freezing temperatures, with a capacity larger than you might think for those cloudy, cold, December days when you get little sunlight.

It really is best to bury it.

All that said, if you're determined to go above the frost line a regular heat cable with at least 1" of insulation will keep your pipe from freezing:

Read the FAQ and instructions carefully - Don't use it on hoses or PVC, it's only appropriate for schedule 40 plastic pipe or metal pipe. Don't overlap it.

If your needs are more complex, use a heat trace cable calculator, such as this one:

For instance, entering 0.75" pipe, 10 feet, minimum ambient temperature of -37F (wisconsin minimum record), holding temperature of 40F, and 1" of fiberglass insulation you'll find that a 4 watt per foot heating cable is more than sufficient for the task. The above frost-king cables are 7W per foot, and they are temperature regulated when properly installed, so they should meet your needs, and can be found at Home Depot and other hardware stores.

For a 10' pipe, that'll be up to 70W continuous power draw, so you'll consume nearly 2kWH each day on the coldest days. You'd want it to last for a few days in a row of bleak weather and snow covering (and remember, you will need to clear the panels every day if the snow sticks to them!) so you'd want 8-10kWH of battery. Then you'll want 4kW of panel or more so when the sun does shine for 4 solid hours you can fill your bank, and when it doesn't you can, on average, keep up with the 2kWH/day you need. This may seem oversized, but if, when it fails, you lose water and have to fix a burst pipe in the middle of winter, outdoors, you'll really be cursing yourself for not oversizing the power system.

So you're looking at as much as $6,000 for your solar power system just for the 10' of pipe, which is easily 10x the cost of burying it.

Bury it below the frost line. Do it right, or do it repeatedly until you do it right.
 
think if some one was using water a few times a day it would warm the water up enough to keep it from freezing .
Probably. And with your insulation that’s equivalent to like five or six feet. Probably fine if you were using it.

Water temps: basically the water volume of the freeze length of the underground pipe in gallons times four is the minimum flow rate per hour to keep a buried ~1” water line from freezing in vulnerable locations for every ~25’ of vulnerable line.

I’ve heard of other ‘calculations’ for this. Deep is the best method.
Funny story. Funny to me anyway. I know a guy with about 1400’ of buried waterline from a spring. At one point 400’ out the line is exposed for 30’ over a ravine of a brook. He runs a mop sink in his heated garage about a gallon a minute trickle. He still has frozen the line a couple or maybe three times in 10 years and has to haul and reservoir water until spring. One year (2016?) it didn’t thaw until like the first week of May. I’d have zero tolerance for that myself LOL
 
Hmmm I’ve heard that I” of polystyrene is worth 12” of dirt .
I have 3” so 3 feet worth of dirt , plus 2 feet of cover at the closest point so 5’ but it’s really cold up there and I think the dirt freezes all the way to the rock If I have to I can truck some water up from the spring and pump it into my tank .
I should know in about 6 weeks .
 
This looks good I mite give it a try .
I can’t really cut thru 3 ‘ of rock .
I can add dirt on top and mound it up a little .
A3AF999E-B972-47BE-BDD7-49291A0E0B9D.jpeg
 
Oof, rock? Sounds like burying is going to be more expensive!
 
Ya rock is tough , I had a jack hammer for the weekend but it’s solid ledge .
Even if I had a excavator and a hydraulic hammer it would take days to hammer a 2’ deep trench
I know this was a problem but it was the only place I could put the well
 
Trenching rock is best done with a different machine.

People with RVs drain them when not in use.
What if you only send water from well through pipe to holding tank as a brief surge. Heat the (insulated) pipe, run the well pump, have a vacuum breaker to let pipe drain into tank.
 
Hedges , this could work my plan was to drill a hole in the well drop tube so the pipe would drain back into the well but I decided agents it at the last min , and I did not have the time to get the equipment for a drain back system
We put the pump in at the last min before for the snow.
 
What if you only send water from well through pipe to holding tank as a brief surge
That’s fantastic and I agree.
Some, ahh, jurisdictions shouldn’t probably know about that method because water isn’t supposed to be able to go “backwards” by codes as it’s looked at as contaminating the source. (That’s why washing machine drains and water treatment purge lines have an air gap drain, even)

So it’s easily done, just maybe should be done “quietly.” Like with a second (even 3/8”) line T’d in below the frost line with a valve day lighted in the house/basement wherever. If the 1” well line in a basement is lower than it’s exit from the well casing that makes it sortof easy. And probably not break some rule.
 
Hedges , this could work my plan was to drill a hole in the well drop tube so the pipe would drain back into the well but I decided agents it at the last min , and I did not have the time to get the equipment for a drain back system
We put the pump in at the last min before for the snow.
It's not too hard to pull the pipe/pump up 10 feet, add the drain hole, then put it back in place.
 
Hmmm I’ve heard that I” of polystyrene is worth 12” of dirt .
I have 3” so 3 feet worth of dirt , plus 2 feet of cover at the closest point so 5’ but it’s really cold up there and I think the dirt freezes all the way to the rock If I have to I can truck some water up from the spring and pump it into my tank .
I should know in about 6 weeks .
Doesn't work that way. You take the depth plus half the width of the insulation centered over the pipe, how ever thick it is.
 
Doesn't work that way. You take the depth plus half the width of the insulation centered over the pipe, how ever thick it is.
Hmmmmmm , could you elaborate ?
I’ve heard a bunch of things , I’m not sure what will really work .
I did what I could under the circumstances .
I had a smallish tractor to dig with so I did what I could at the time .
How much insulation and how wide will stop it from freezing ?
I can add more foam about 20” down and go wider ?
I’ll have my excavator up there next year for my shop build so it will only take a couple hours .
 
This whole living off-grid thing is looking harder and harder!

Next time he should buy land with a natural spring...
I had a different piece of land with water bubbling out of the ground , there is a 11/2 pipe running down the road on top of the grass there must be 12 houses feeding off it but wifey did not like it . ☹️
 
It's not too hard to pull the pipe/pump up 10 feet, add the drain hole, then put it back in place.
The problem with just drilling a hole in the pipe is the water would be pressurized and shooting out in to the rock bore hole , the water would be supper aerated and the oxygen in the water would make every thing corrode.
The pipe , wire , pump , water is about 800lb so it’s no easy task pulling the pump .
I did try pulling it up just to see if the pump puller could lift it , but I’m hoping that I’ll never see that pipe again .

I’m not really worried about the pipe freezing I’m more worried about the brass pitiless adaptor freezing and cracking and dropping every thing down the well ☹️
 
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