Adding storage to my Enphase system

[svetz]

Any new wireless chargers? Is there anything new in the house that might be running from 1:00 to 2:30?
(I like where he said... my neighbor had a wireless charger).
Have I mentioned I like my SDR dongle? ; -)

 

[GXMnow]

Any new wireless chargers? Is there anything new in the house that might be running from 1:00 to 2:30?
(I like where he said... my neighbor had a wireless charger).
Have I mentioned I like my SDR dongle? ; -)

I have not added anything recently, but maybe my neighbor has. He uses his garage as a "Man Cave" with a TV and Foosball table etc. The wall of his garage is just 7 feet from the wall of my garage. Our breaker panels face each other.

 

[svetz]

Hmmm... You've listed two times, around 11:15 A.M. and 1:30 P.M. and it doesn't sound like it happens every day.

If your neighbor works during the day it probably isn't them turning stuff on/off. Summer though, his kids are probably out of school and could be the culprits. If it was something like your neighbor's pool pump I'd expect the interference to last longer. It is around lunchtime, suppose their microwave could be leaking? Meh... that would be a 17th harmonic and with a leak that big your neighbors would probably glow in the dark by now. ; -)

Some inverters are notorious for noise, but you've been running that XW for a long time without issue. You also don't invert with the XW at that time of day (the charger is running though). If it was the mini-split, I'd expect to see it happening more often.

As it's around solar noon it might be a marginal microinverter generating noise due to both solar and heat. If there's a correlation with the temperature you could probably confirm/deny it by covering them up when it happens. That'll be tough to find as intermittent as it is. If you have a FLIR you might be able to spot it.

Assuming it is noise rather than something else; if it turned out to be something on the grid-side of the Envoy (or from inside of your home) ferrites are a cheap fix, the math is impressive. As the Envoy needs those signals you can't use them on the PV side, but they might clean up external noise. Not sure what you'd do if it's the PV cables absorbing RF, although if it's RF it's affecting everything; so ferrites on the grid side might work was you'd be cutting the noise from all the other "antennas" and greatly reducing the dB. Idk, the HAMs on the forums would have more insight.

 

[Hedges]

Assuming it is noise rather than something else; if it turned out to be something on the grid-side of the Envoy (or from inside of your home) ferrites are a cheap fix, the math is impressive. As the Envoy needs those signals you can't use them on the PV side, but they might clean up external noise. Not sure what you'd do if it's the PV cables absorbing RF, although if it's RF it's affecting everything; so ferrites on the grid side might work was you'd be cutting the noise from all the other "antennas" and greatly reducing the dB.

Still worth a try. Ferrites attenuate AC signals, more effectively for higher frequencies. Might improve signal to noise, with lower frequency communication and higher frequency interference.

That is when putting ferrite around a single wire, trying to block differential mode. (I expected high low frequency or DC differential mode to saturate ferrite and make it ineffective, but some benefit toward passing FCC tests has been seen.)

Putting ferrite around both wires, the differential signals cancel each other and are unaffected. Common-mode is blocked. That could be effective at reducing some interference. Differential mode comes from a loop antenna (e.g. PV array having area between positive and negative wires.) Common mode comes from whip antenna. Common mode riding on a pair of wires carrying differential signal affects signal recovery, both by conversion to common mode and by rectification of RF causing DC offset.

 

[GXMnow]

Checking the logs just now, it did happen again yesterday, but this time it only lost comm for 4 minutes, but it was all 16 inverters again. The first one went offline at 4:36 pm, the last one was logged by 4:38 and the first one was back online again at 4:40. And at best, they only try once a minute. So this was a vey short glitch.

The inverters powered up from sunlight and started to communicate this morning as early as 5:55 am. And they were making useable power as early as 7:10 am. Power production got high enough to start charging the batteries at 8:15 am.

Out of curiosity, I also compared this time frame with the log from the XW-Pro. This is more than 20 minutes A/C shut off, so it had nothing to do with that big power draw change. The solar was then also producing more than the house needed, so the Enphase was exporting a bit of power, and the XW-Pro was just in standby, no charging or inverting. The A/C did not kick on again until about 5:20 pm, over a half hour after the comm returned. I also do not see any sign of other large load. Certainly no use of the microwave near that time.

So I don't think it is a device in my home causing this issue. Losing comm for less than 5 minutes, just once a day is not a big issue. But the other times it lost it for over an hour, that could be a problem. I still have not heard back from Enphase. I work all day Monday, maybe I can call them Tuesday and see if they have any suggestions. If I was a "normal" customer, only watching Enlighten on the App, I would have no idea this is even happening. So it will not surprise me if they say it is perfectly fine from what they see in the data.

Right now all 16 panels are reporting and producing between 112 and 122 watts. 1.87 KW total from the whole array. 900 watts of it are going into the battery. The house is using the other 900 watts.

 

[svetz]

...it was all 16 inverters again...

Interesting that it's all or nothing. Can't be a loose wire or you'd lose power too.

The first one went offline at 4:36 pm, the last one was logged by 4:38 and the first one was back online again at 4:40.

So that might blow the "marginal inverter" theory... if it was a microinverter generating a harmonic due to heat/solar-PV, I'd expect it to always be around solar noon. Just because you ruled out the big devices doesn't mean it can't be a small device, that's the problem with 144 MHz - from that video linked earlier cheap milliwatt chargers can cause it. But the timeframes are odd.

Don't suppose you've seen the power company working on the lines anywhere near the house?

... If I was a "normal" customer, only watching Enlighten on the App, I would have no idea this is even happening. So it will not surprise me if they say it is perfectly fine from what they see in the data....

Actually, you can see them from the Enlighten Manager with the link below (change your site ID of course ; -): https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/systems/<siteId>/events?status=cleared&event_type=15



But, unless you can get them to run a noise check during an actual live disruption event they might not be able to see it... not sure they store that data. Either way, as there's no actual power disruption they probably won't get too excited about it.

 

[ko6kL]

Hmmm... You've listed two times, around 11:15 A.M. and 1:30 P.M. and it doesn't sound like it happens every day.

If your neighbor works during the day it probably isn't them turning stuff on/off. Summer though, his kids are probably out of school and could be the culprits. If it was something like your neighbor's pool pump I'd expect the interference to last longer. It is around lunchtime, suppose their microwave could be leaking? Meh... that would be a 17th harmonic and with a leak that big your neighbors would probably glow in the dark by now. ; -)

Some inverters are notorious for noise, but you've been running that XW for a long time without issue. You also don't invert with the XW at that time of day (the charger is running though). If it was the mini-split, I'd expect to see it happening more often.

As it's around solar noon it might be a marginal microinverter generating noise due to both solar and heat. If there's a correlation with the temperature you could probably confirm/deny it by covering them up when it happens. That'll be tough to find as intermittent as it is. If you have a FLIR you might be able to spot it.

Assuming it is noise rather than something else; if it turned out to be something on the grid-side of the Envoy (or from inside of your home) ferrites are a cheap fix, the math is impressive. As the Envoy needs those signals you can't use them on the PV side, but they might clean up external noise. Not sure what you'd do if it's the PV cables absorbing RF, although if it's RF it's affecting everything; so ferrites on the grid side might work was you'd be cutting the noise from all the other "antennas" and greatly reducing the dB. Idk, the HAMs on the forums would have more insight.

I am a ham radio operator and wondering what the communication protocol and frequency is for the noise'e micro inverters placed on rooftops... would be WONDERFUL to be able to transmit shut done code from off site to reduce RFI for the neighborhood.

 

[GXMnow]

I am a ham radio operator and wondering what the communication protocol and frequency is for the noise'e micro inverters placed on rooftops... would be WONDERFUL to be able to transmit shut done code from off site to reduce RFI for the neighborhood.

Let's be honest here. The signal is carried on the wires. Sure, a little might leak, but I am having data loss issues with a purpose built receiver connected directly to the wires. It is a tiny signal, it's not going to mess with your ham radio. On the other hand, your ham radio could be knocking out my data stream. My friend back in Illinois could transmit at up to 600 watts on his rig. He would talk to friends in Japan. When he sent at full power, you could hear his voice from a chain link fence. I don't remember what frequency ranges he used. It was a long time ago. Most of the time, he would run under 50 watts, but even that is massive compared to the milliwatts used to send data down the powerline from the solar panels.

 

[ko6kL]

if your micro inverter is talking on the AC power lines it's not going to get past any line noise filter ( like inside of good power strips...) something like this or other noise on the line from switching power supply ( like in my microwave oven or most battery chagers ) could be jamming the signals.
you could monitor the frequency on a AM or shortwave radio and track down the noise... if it is a WIFI signal used for the communication, this is a VERY busy band and literally every home is on one or more of the 16 channels... and many new phones and cars to....

on my sunny boy 7.0 inverter, i have a 100amp AC line noise filter on the AC output going to the grid to keep any RFI off the ham bands...

100A 3-phase Power Line Filter, 2 Stage

3-phase 3-wire or 3-phase 4-wire power line filter with dual stage configuration, 100 Amp rated current, 250V/440V AC rated voltage, high performance in EMI/RFI shielding with favorable price and high quality.

www.ato.com

it was about $100 on ebay. EVERY ONE SHOULD HAVE ONE.... it will also keep spikes from getting into the inverter protecting it !
here is how to install micro inverters if you don't want some ham radio guy tracking you down....

http://valleymedia.org/satchat/k1kp-416-34-35.JPG

kind regards.

 

[svetz]

... if you don't want some ham radio guy tracking you down....

If any ham guy hunted him down for his 10 microwatts/m² WiFi powerline signal, I suspect they'd weep for joy, kiss him on both cheeks (if french), and pin a medal on him. Then possibly complain about his TV, CFL porch light, the mercury lights on the street corner, the other neighbor's 15-year-old car alternator, and so on.

It's probably because the signal is so low that he's having the occasional problem. Speaking of which, how regularly are you getting the noise now? Is it still every day, once a day between noon and 5 for about 45 min?

From his prior posts, given the incident times, I suspect he's ruled out anything internal. Could be coming in from outside on the AC wires. Could also be his off-the-roof wires (240V @ 60 Hz power & 144 MHz powerline WiFi) are acting as an antenna and occasionally getting bombarded by something generating 144 MHz or a harmonic or it. Ferrite beads on the AC grid wire would probably solve the issue if it was coming in from the grid. If it is the solar side wiring I suspect he'd need some sort of shielding. Or just ignore it, not like the microinverters won't catch up and in the event of a grid outage most likely what's causing the noise will go out. A lot of noise is from equipment starting to die, so it's possible that it'll die and be replaced before too long.

This guy's story is horrifying:

I saw over 1 watt ... my 144 MHz feedline!

This guy has been measuring 144 MHz from the sun. There has been a lot of sunspot activity... but if that were the case I'd expect mine to act up more than they have too. Well perhaps not... my down run is on the west, so there are two 6" slabs of concrete between them and the sun for a lot of the wiring run for most of the day. Plastic conduit on the roof, so no shielding there. Not sure if the IQ cables are shielded or not.

 

[svetz]

Just for grins, here's 102.1 MHz (an FM station at -8 dB) and 144 MHz (-40 dB) in my area:

I do see a very sharp peak at 120 MHz that's -13 dB, 144 MHz is very active (-15 dB),

 

[GXMnow]

Speaking of which, how regularly are you getting the noise now? Is it still every day, once a day between noon and 5 for about 45 min?

Checking the logs...

It actually happened again today, but I didn't notice it. Just in the logs. It only lasted 2 minutes, from 1:12 to 1:14 PM.

Looks like it didn't happen yesterday. I was out at work all day, no indication of signal loss in the logs for the 13th.

Does not look like any drop out on the 12th either. That's as far back as I can go in the 500 log entries. So it made 2 days without a drop, but then a short drop today.

I don't know where it came from, but my panels are crazy dirty again. Looks like brown dirt, not the white ash from a fire. As bad as they look, production is still decent. I am ahead of last year for the same day. Should make about 27 KWHs by sunset. My son got a cheapo pressure washer. I wonder if I just shoot it up and let it fall on the panels if it will rinse down as good as I did with the hose up on the roof??

 

[Hedges]

here is how to install micro inverters if you don't want some ham radio guy tracking you down....

http://valleymedia.org/satchat/k1kp-416-34-35.JPG

kind regards.

That which makes a bad transmit antenna ... makes a bad receive antenna.

 

[svetz]

...my panels are crazy dirty again. Looks like brown dirt, not the white ash from a fire. As bad as they look, production is still decent.

I was up on the roof the other day and just happened to have a wet rag, the panels looked clean but figured I'd wipe one anyway. When finished the rag was black and grimey (coal dust from Cuba?) - all from only one panel. I'm thinking oh oh... checked the panel stats at the end of the day for a few days and compared with other panels. The total difference was ~20 watt hours for the day. Admittedly that's a few AA batteries worth of energy, but pretty much noise compared to the panel (< 1%). I figure the next hurricane will scour them clean.

My son got a cheapo pressure washer. I wonder if I just shoot it up and let it fall on the panels if it will rinse down as good as I did with the hose up on the roof??

Doubt it. Also wouldn't use it directly on the panels unless by cheap you mean it produces about regular hose pressure (< 60 psi).

 

[pvdude]

I use this foam tool and the detergent on my pressure washer to clean the panels.
(Home Depot)
Spray the foam on, wait for the surfactant to operate, hose off.
Even better results if I use a long RV wash brush to scrub the surfactant before rinsing it off.

 

[GXMnow]

It is a small electric Ryobi pressure washer. It claims 1,000 psi to the nozzle, but I doubt it. I was not planning to aim right at the panels, just spray from the ground in an arc so it fall son the panels on the upper roof. It would be like a strong rain. But the angle would be going up the slope. When I have rinsed them in the past, I get on the roof with just a garden hose from the top and let the water and gravity do the work. The first two times I did it, I got about 6% back the next day. The last time after the close fire, I got a solid 10% back. And yes, that is total watt hours for the day. It went from just over 26 KWH to almost 29 KWH for the whole array in a day. It did 26.8 KWH yesterday. My guess is I am down in the 6% range, even as bad as they look. It's odd how much dirt can be on them, and they still make this much power. We are still hitting mi to upper 90's, but at least the air has not gone over 100 for a few days.

Only one time did I use any cleaner. And I only used some generic windex type stuff to get off a few bird droppings. And one time I used the car wash brush, but it didn't really do much better than just the rinse. Most of what we get here is just dry dust. I was able to vacuum it off, but the hose is faster.

 

[GXMnow]

Day after day of 100F + heat is taking it's toll.

My solar array just can't keep up under these conditions. Each day, I am barely able to get the battery bank up to 54 volts, my normal full charge is 57 volts. So I am only getting half the power into the battery that I want to. Yesterday July 16th was the worst day yet. I ended up having to buy 19.48 KWHs from So Cal Edison, and 6 KWHs of it was at peak rate too. My goal of adding another 2 KW of solar panels is not enough on days like this. 1 or even 2 days like this, I was able to cover, but this is a week straight of topping 100F. It only got down to 75 overnight, so even with the windows open all night, I was starting the morning with a 75 degree house. At 11 am, the air temp in the shade is already pushing 95F (35) again. Forecast says it will hit 103F (39.5C)

Air temp in my garage is at 87F (30.5C) and my battery temp sensors all show 30C to 31C so the cells are matching the temp in the garage. Charge rate is currently up to 34 amps. The old battery bank is showing 16 amps, just under half of it, as expected. The BMS mos temp is a little warmer at 33C. Cells are still all balanced within 5 millivolts. The old bank has now been powered up over 2 full years. The full capacity has been cycled 150 times. That's 54,000 amp hours have gone in and back out of that bank of cells. The BMS says it is currently 74% charged, but it is really more like 64% because I have been stopping charge at 90%, so it thinks that is 100%. The pack is down 26% of 360 amp hours from full. So it needs a little over 93 amp hours to top it up. The other bank is in parallel with just slightly better specs, so it probably would need 95 amp hours to top up. So 188 amp hours at 54 volts = 10 KWHs to get the whole bank full. It would be doable, except that the A/C is going to have to kick on for at least another hour while the sun is up, and it will take most of the solar production while it is on.

All of my panels are currently making between 190 and 200 watts out of the Enphase inverters, and it is nearly 2 hours until solar noon. The last few hot days like this, it has been topping out just under 220 watts per panel, or just over 3,300 watts for the whole array of 16. The panels are dirty again, but these numbers are in line with other hot days. A good cleaning will only get me about 5%. The only cure is MORE PANELS.

 

[Hedges]

Were you using PV, avoiding grid power, at times other than peak?
If you ended up buying some power at peak, and your battery wasn't getting fully charged, I think charging should be made a priority.
All available PV goes to battery when not at peak times, drawing grid power as needed to power A/C. If not forbidden by utility rate terms or prevented by hardware/software, also charge battery from grid off-peak.
The fact battery was never full tells me that was a missed opportunity to power A/C from battery rather than grid during peak rates.

 

[Hedges]

In the following thread we discuss cooling with water, or enhancing efficiency of A/C with water:

using spring water for heating/cooling?

We have a mountain spring on our property that puts out 68F spring water, flow is slow, about 1/4 gallon per minute. Wondering if this could be fed though a water to air heat exchanger in the house to cool a small room a little in the winter and heat a little in the summer. Not expecting...

diysolarforum.com

 

[GXMnow]

With my current programming, when the A/C comes on, it is dropping my charge rate to just 5% (7 amps) while the A/C is running. I am still buying a little grid power to run the A/C, but it is letting the solar help too. I could force it to hold a bit higher charge rate.