fromport
Solar Addict
Californians are paying billions for power they don't need
We're using less electricity. Some power plants have even shut down. So why do state officials keep approving new ones?
www.latimes.com
Adding storage to my Enphase system
- Thread starter GXMnow
- Start date
www.latimes.com
If you see any other than a semantic distinction with your statement, please elaborate.
dougbert
Solar Addict
I have to agree with 400bird. California electric rates are all over the place. I actually have 3 options just from SCE. I am a bit torn on the "EV" rate option. It has cheaper off peak and super off peak rates, but then the on peak is higher and the fixed monthly charge is also more, even if you use no power. As long as I can keep time shifting away and not using any 4 pm to 9 pm power, I think I could end up saving a little on the EV rate, the added fixed fee just seems wrong to me. And the jacked up peak time rate can really catch you out if the solar does not produce enough.
Between the CPUC and the state taxes, all California utility rates are a bit higher than most of the country. When they shut down the San Onofre nuclear power plant, they smacked us with extra charges to help SCE pay for decommissioning the plant. We had no say in their choice and yet they are making us pay for what I feel was the wrong decision. They spent $680 million to replace the leaking steam generators, then ran the plant only one more year until the new ones were starting to leak. Mitsubishi built faulty steam generators, they should have had to replace them properly under some kind of warranty. Would you scrap your car because a new heater core was leaking again? True, the steam generator was leaking radioactive water into the turbine steam, but it should have been fixed properly. But no, let's just make the customers pay to scrap it all instead. I don't know how the whole legal mess ended with SCE and Mitsubishi. Here is a newspaper story about the mess.
It is crap like this that has caused our electric rates to jump over the years. They screw up and blow a crap load of money, so they jack up rates to cover their loss and make a record profit the next year. And we all end up paying for it.
It’s not just the steam generators that failed
Four years after San Onofre shutdown, questions remain about flawed projectwww.sandiegouniontribune.com
well rate payers should pay for all the costs in generating and distributing and maintaining the system, BUT......BUT
the payments for replacements should have started on DAY ONE of the new operations decades ago.
Rather then that, they charge the prices at the END of LIFE event
and as you point out, paying for stupid screw ups is wrong.
Does not CA have laws that says you MUST be connected to the grid?
I mean, if one had land, or roof space and batteries, run a house totally off-grid without even a meter, yet I understand that CA wants ALL aspects of power generation under their control. Is that a correct assertion?
dougbert
Solar Addict
yet, 5 years LATER, they are short of energy - or that is the story
Californians are paying billions for power they don't need
We're using less electricity. Some power plants have even shut down. So why do state officials keep approving new ones?
GXMnow
Solar Wizard
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I agree that the cost of generating and delivering the power should be in the rate charged for the power, and they are entitled to also make a profit. That is all fine. The big screw up with San Onofre nuclear generating station was that it was meant to last another 30+ years. So the "End of life" came far too soon because of some bad decisions and a design flaw on a major replacement part. So instead of having the cost of the plant and it's eventual decommissioning covered over another 30 years or more, it was reduced to, "This is happening NOW!".
I honestly don't know if there is any kind of sate or local rule about needing to be connected to the electrical grid. I really doubt that is a thing. There are plenty of stories online about people living in "Off Grid" cabins and such in California. Maybe cities could have some kind of rule, I don't know. I don't want to go truly off grid. I like having that solid dependable source of energy available when I need it. And I am totally fine with having to pay a bit to keep it there and ready for use. And I will also admit that my primary reason for installing PV Solar was to save money, I also feel good about helping reduce emissions. My one house using very little power is a tiny drop in a very huge bucket. But if even half the houses and 1/3 of the businesses could all cut their grid power consumption and use storage to flatten the load curve like I am doing, then the amount of fuel needed to keep the grid power can be greatly reduced. But if it is all done with just solar, then we do have a problem. If a large area is covered over by heavy clouds and the solar production tanks, the demand on the grid could spike when all these PV Solar power systems fail to provide enough power. Even with extra storage like I have, extended cloud cover can still run them out. Hopefully those heavy clouds also come with some wind to help make some power, and maybe the pumped hydro system had enough warning to get some extra water pumped up to the high reservoir before the power was needed. So here is the problem is a "renewable powered future". How do w deal with a lack of "clean energy"? when those events happen? I had it happen here last summer. During the crazy heat wave, I had to fall back onto grid power and even buy some on peak time energy to stay comfortable. Grid demand was way up, and they kept it running. My $97 electric bill was worth every penny to be able to have the A/C running during those 3 hot weeks. So having a "Minimum Charge" on the bill is not a bad thing. I want to keep people employed at So Cal Edison, so they can maintain the lines and keep the power plants ready to cover the load. But I also feel we should do our best to reduce the load on the system. But it also needs to be fair. A person with enough PV solar to not need any grid power should obviously pay less than the person running on just grid power.
fromport
Solar Addict
Off-grid electricity used to be illegal in California under Title 24. The law required residential homes to have an “interconnection pathway.” However, the law has recently been updated and now specifically allows off-grid electricity.
GXMnow
Solar Wizard
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I looked at that article, and I do agree with some of it, but there is a problem. That article is from 2017, so yes, 5 years old. That was long before this push towards EVs and the banning of gasoline lawn equipment, and even gasoline car sales in the near future. What was enough power for California in 2008 to 2017 may not be enough energy now. The 2008 recession was bad. A huge number of people were not able to pay their bills. In the years leading up to 2008, electricity demand was climbing fast, so they made the decisions to build more power plants. It takes years to plan for that, and they typically plan for a bit extra. But then 2008 wiped out the future demand growth for more than a decade. Add in LED lighting and more efficient appliances and even computers and TV's using less than half what the old models needed, and the energy demand climb leveled off. Planning to build additional power plants back in 2001 to 2007 was not a bad idea. The future just didn't go quite as planned.
Now add in 20% of the cars in California going to some form of plug in electric, and our electric power demand is going to increase. All new houses having no gas appliances! Using electricity to make heat in a dryer, water heater, oven, stove, and water heater are all a huge waste of energy. Burning the gas directly under the pan, is so much more efficient than having that gas burn in a power plant to spin a turbine to generate power to then send through miles of cable to a heating element to do the same thing. Using a huge amount of electricity to just make heat is just silly. Especially when most of our power plants are also burning natural gas.
And I plan to keep my gasoline lawn mower running for many years to come.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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I just realized that wealth customers who have a home with a yard are unfairly making poor people bear the burden of a water system they rely on.
When it rains, wealthy people get free water from the heavens. Poor people who rent apartments have to pay for tap water for their house plants.
But during dry periods, these wealthy people use tap water.
It's not fair!
To make wealthy people pay their fair share of the municipal water system, I propose a "raindrop tax" to be assessed on square footage of yard space.
fromport
Solar Addict
I have been driving ev's since 2011, same year I started with solar even though I was renting at that moment and permitted solar was not possible.
You make a statement without explaining why!?
I have a 40 gallon hybrid electric water heater and it uses a lot LESS energy measured in BTU's than the gas water heater it replaced.
Excuse me?
Up to 90 percent of the energy produced on an induction range is transferred to food, compared to about 74 percent on a traditional electric range, and 40 percent on a gas range, according to a study published in the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy’s Summer Study on Energy Efficiency in Buildings.
or this article: https://www.leafscore.com/eco-frien...e-energy-efficient-gas-electric-or-induction/
How many miles of gas lines, pump stations to re-pressurize that uses energy is used for gas cooking?
If you look at BTU used for a heat pump vs a central gas heater, electricity is much more efficient.
Natural gas is still subsidized: https://www.eesi.org/files/FactSheet_Fossil_Fuel_Subsidies_0719.pdf
And of course, then you use electricity we know it is not 100% fossil fuels we are using.
Can't say that from natural gas. That will always be 100% fossil fuel.
Not to talk about poisoning the earth by injecting chemicals in order to do fracking in order to get "cheap natural gas"
2021 Total System Electric Generation
That is your choice. I am saving for a li-ion based EGO riding mower with li-ion batteries.
I haven't used my gas powered in years. I have been using my electric self propelled li-ion electric mower instead.
More work/time but no fumes, less noise.
Last edited:
400bird
Solar Wizard
Why is the electric lawn mower more work? I prefer mine because the music doesn't need to be as loud in the ear buds and I never have to go the gas station. Plus, it starts every time.
fromport
Solar Addict
Double deck on the riding mower vs single deck (and smaller blade)
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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How about a drone lawn mower?
Then it won't use any of your time.
(or are all of these getting bought up and donated to Ukraine?)
Then it won't use any of your time.
(or are all of these getting bought up and donated to Ukraine?)
fromport
Solar Addict
Would need 50 charges for 1 acre ;-)
That looks more like it.
What my dream would be:
Riding Mowers with the Power and Performance of Gas | EGO
Power Like No Other ZTR on the market. Peak Power+™ Technology delivers the power & performance of gas without the noise, fuss and fumes. Customizable mowing experience with LCD interface, including three driving modes. Experience power without limits - add more batteries to cut as many acres as...
egopowerplus.com
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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"Working area capacity (±20): 1.25 acre"
Think that's based on one-way distance out and back (beyond that is range anxiety?)
"Area capacity per hour: 2,239 ft²"
Ok, so it'll take 20 hours to mow your acre!
"That looks more like it."
Oh, your comments were about the first, an $800 toy. vs. the $3300 Husqvarna "Beast"
"Cutting width: 9.45in"
Smaller than my Echo cordless weed wacker!
Think that's based on one-way distance out and back (beyond that is range anxiety?)
"Area capacity per hour: 2,239 ft²"
Ok, so it'll take 20 hours to mow your acre!
"That looks more like it."
Oh, your comments were about the first, an $800 toy. vs. the $3300 Husqvarna "Beast"
"Cutting width: 9.45in"
Smaller than my Echo cordless weed wacker!
GXMnow
Solar Wizard
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Here is the "simple" description.
Main panel has 20 amp back feed breaker feeding the AC "grid" input of the Schneider XW-Pro inverter.
Output of XW-Pro inverter feeds 30 amp "main" breaker in a backup loads sub panel.
Enphase Combiner3 and the 16 iQ7 inverters with 300 watt panels feed into a 20 amp breaker in the backup loads panel.
I currently have 4 20 amp circuits from the backup panel feeding the house. the "essentials" Refrigerator, Furnace, lighting, PC, etc.
XW-Pro is connected to a 720 amp hour 14S Li NMC battery bank, Fused Class T at 250 amps.
New DC panels, total 1,000 watts is using a DC charge controller straight to the battery bank, fused at 30 amps.
System control is being done with a Triangle Research Nano-10 PLC. The PLC reads the power (watts) on the Grid, Output, and Battery connections of the XW-Pro inverter and also reads a pair of power meters measuring the consumption from the main panel. The PLC then decides when to activate charging in the XW-Pro to only use excess PV Solar production from the Enphase inverters. Charge current is adjusted every 5 seconds to maintain near zero export, and no consumption. I have it set to allow a little power export, so I know the battery is only being charged by solar, never from grid power.
The XW-Pro is programmed to block charging at 4 pm to 10 pm to make sure I am not taking any power when the grid is on the higher time of use rate. Once the battery is charged to full (or after 4 pm) the PLC will then command the "Sell to Grid" current in the XW-Pro inverter to cover the loads that are back in the main panel still. It uses the same 5 second update loop. It is capped to 16 amps back to the main panel, due to the 20 amp breaker. That is all I can use for back feed for now as it is a 100 amp panel with a 100 amp main. 20 amps puts me at the "120% rule" limit. Most of my constant loads are in the backup panel, so that power can be on top of the power going to the main panel. I have pushed it to over 5,000 watts with loads in the main panel as well as the backup panel, and the battery bank is still just coasting along.
Currently the PLC, the XW-Pro inverter, and the Enphase system are not aware of the new DC panels in any way. That system just pushes it's power directly into the battery bank. The XW-Pro stops charging at 57 volts, which is about 90% charged. The BougeRV DC charge controller can charge up to 57.6 volts or about 93% charged. It has not been able to hit that yet with just 1,000 watts of panels. It only reaches about 12 amps of charge current into my 720 amp hour battery bank. Full 100% charge would be 58.8 volts, so I am still well short of that. On a few very sunny days, I did see the battery voltage rise to 57.2 volts from the DC charging after the XW-Pro stopped charging at 57 volts.
I don't have a decent current line drawing of the system, but I will try and put one together in a few days. The power connections are fairly straight forward. It really the PLC software that makes it work. Feel free to ask any questions. I know the thread has gotten crazy long, so it can be hard to follow it all.
Thanks for that. Seems the PLC is a key part and would probably be my barrier to entry.
I like the DC for charging the batteries.
If you wanted more than 20A to backfeed the main you could derate your main panel breaker.
When off grid how does everything function? I assume the xw uses frequency shift to shut off enphase inverters…
It looks like you don’t have consumption monitoring from enphase? Why not?
I finally got my enphase system installed with Controller 2 and one Encharge 10T. Now attempting to wrap my head around adding third party batteries to my backup loads panel. I believe my Ensemble system could be the grid reference and a grid-tie storage inverter/charger could play nicely but not sure. I have considered connecting an off-grid storage inverter to the generator input of the Controller2 but, again, more questions…the generator input employ a CT to prevent backfeed to the “generator“ so a DC coupled architecture could be a solution…
After reading through some posts I saw mention of potential Automomatic Transfer Switch failure. To solve this for my dad(he was worried) I ran a breaker directly from main panelboard to backup load panel lugs and told him to CALL ME if something quits working so I can guide him through the switching order. This would allow him to bypass the ATS if necessary.
Again, thanks.
WL
I like the DC for charging the batteries.
If you wanted more than 20A to backfeed the main you could derate your main panel breaker.
When off grid how does everything function? I assume the xw uses frequency shift to shut off enphase inverters…
It looks like you don’t have consumption monitoring from enphase? Why not?
I finally got my enphase system installed with Controller 2 and one Encharge 10T. Now attempting to wrap my head around adding third party batteries to my backup loads panel. I believe my Ensemble system could be the grid reference and a grid-tie storage inverter/charger could play nicely but not sure. I have considered connecting an off-grid storage inverter to the generator input of the Controller2 but, again, more questions…the generator input employ a CT to prevent backfeed to the “generator“ so a DC coupled architecture could be a solution…
After reading through some posts I saw mention of potential Automomatic Transfer Switch failure. To solve this for my dad(he was worried) I ran a breaker directly from main panelboard to backup load panel lugs and told him to CALL ME if something quits working so I can guide him through the switching order. This would allow him to bypass the ATS if necessary.
Again, thanks.
WL
Attachments
Don’t joke…
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Or bend the 120% rule with your eyes wide open.
If you fully understand the circuit, you can prevent overload.
"Lugs"
If backup load panel had a main breaker fed from ATS and interlocked "generator" breaker fed from main panel-board, I think that would be fool-proof.
(Except for the better fool who removes breaker panel cover and interlock with it.)
