How to get solar when you can't afford it

[Lt.Dan]

I will say that Americans are wasteful for sure. Most of it from ignorance of knowing how to save electricity and fuel.

Hell, I drive a 99 Toyota Rav4 - 30mpg highway, and I drive 30miles/day to work and back. My wife gets in the car and consistently gets 24mpg. She just doesn't know how to conserve fuel correctly, where I have been practicing for years.

There are a lot of Americans doing their part to be less impactful on the planet, but since its so cheap to just keep it the way we have it, nobody is going to change. I say it all the time about people complaining about lawn/grass in your front and backyard, and how wasteful it is to water it and keep it alive. The only reason I still have it is because my water bill is cheap, only $30 this month. It doesn't make sense for me to pay someone (or even myself) to scrape it all out and replace it with desert landscape or something else that looks stupid.

The only time there is going to be change, is when its forced, unfortunately.

 

[OffGridForGood]

On this forum we see large daily consumption for electric in the posts of those that live in areas requiring significant A/C - Texas/Arizona/Nevada/SoCal etc. these can be 40-60kWh per day homes, while places like the UK typically don't need (much) A/C and have far lower daily loads. I suspect a lot of the food waste numbers are related to distance, trucking, grocery stores toss a lot of produce before any customer ever sees it.
In Canada we see very high numbers (compared to the rest of the world) for heating and transportation, and this is a geography thing, generally.
I can tell you there have been parts of my life where I worked 2000 miles from home, but travelled home regularly. Our climate varies depending where you live but in my area we have 6 months of winter, one month of spring three of summer and two of fall, repeat. Heating is a big deal here, and not all homes are well insulated efficient buildings. If I lived in Surrey BC, I wouldn't even see a real winter.
Pushing the EV market, in Ontario where gasoline is expensive, but off-peak electricity is cheap (and generally 'green') operating an EV is pennies compared to my ICE Truck. Like someone else stated earlier, I mostly use the pickup when I need to haul something or pick up materials/equipment where the EV is just not going to cut it. A 75km trip in an EV is about 5% of the cost of the same trip in my 3/4Ton Ram.

 

[BuffaloTrace]

The only time there is going to be change, is when its forced, unfortunately.

So....burn it all?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

This whole conversation started with showing you electric usage and saying you don't know how anyone could possibly live on less, they must be VERY frugal

When in fact you're probably in the top 5/10% of the world in residential electric use

I was also speaking to Americans.

You still didn’t answer my question either.
What is your heat source?
What is the temperature in your home year round?

What is your weather like?
Do you have central AC heat or zone heat?

We are not blowing our heat out into the wild here.

We might be in the top 10% of electrical use but it’s not because we are wasting it.

You chose to live in a 1200 sqft house with 5 people.

I didn’t and because I can afford it suddenly I’m a bad guy?

It’s not waste. It’s a different living standard.

 

[OffGridForGood]

So....burn it all?

I would say, the only time there is going to be significant change is when there are alternatives that are better.
There is an interesting quote "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones"
And the fossil fuel age will not end due to running out of fossil fuel, it will change where there are better options.
I believe we are living the change right now. And more will come, things we have not even imagined yet. Change certainly takes time though, not overnight. I am thinking my grandkids (10 and under today) will one day years from now tell me "I remember when your place was one of the only ones around here with solar grand-pa"
I am excited to see what comes in the next few years, 10-years, longer...heck just seeing the new EG4 18/12kPV is pretty exciting. I am sure that is the tip of a very big iceberg...

 

[BuffaloTrace]

The more efficient my own life gets, doesn't necessarily increase my savings per say either. One can get more efficient but it doesn't mean the resources will not be used, until of course ..... burn it all...than for sure something else will be used.

I often think of 'Jevons Paradox', not as an argument against increased energy/resource efficiency, but in many cases it all gets used regardless, whether it's having more children as with some demographics, or living a more per capita energy hungry lifestyle as with others. My "savings" and increased efficiency will basically allow me to use more elsewhere in my life.

One thing I stress is to buy used and buy local, which should overall reduce the cost to getting started in solar adventures. There's plenty of solar stuff out there for sale at reduced prices and one is right here on the forum.

 

[SamDeleted]

It’s not waste. It’s a different living standard

Haha yea call it what you want ...

I just think it's very sad that many people in this world don't have enough, and a select few take FAR more than their fair share...

You chose to live in a 1200 sqft house with 5 people.

I didn’t and because I can afford it suddenly I’m a bad guy?

It's actually quite a big house for a family of 5 here lol.

But no,, I'm not trying to say your a bad guy... you seem to be taking this very personally and that wasn't my intention ... Im sorry you took it that way .. . I can't apologize for what I've said cause it's the truth, but I do not want to argue with you , and certainly didn't mean to upset your day ....


God bless it's been nice talking to you, been informative

 

[Nobodybusiness]

This whole conversation started with showing you electric usage and saying you don't know how anyone could possibly live on less, they must be VERY frugal


When in fact you're probably in the top 5/10% of the world in residential electric use

Interesting read.

This is the most overweight nation in Western Europe

Around 27 per cent of Britons are now clinically obese, and another 36 per cent are overweight

www.independent.co.uk

 

[SamDeleted]

Interesting read.

This is the most overweight nation in Western Europe

Around 27 per cent of Britons are now clinically obese, and another 36 per cent are overweight

www.independent.co.uk

Haha yes the UK is almost as bad, it's terrible.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

D

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I just think it's very sad that many people in this world don't have enough, and a select few take FAR more than their fair share...

Take?

We generate the electricity here.
How exactly are we taking electricity from other countries?

Your also confusing American Government with its citizens.
Not even remotely the same.

 

[JeepHammer]

If you can get your wife to live a buried house you are doing better than most of us.

I wanted a Monolithic Dome home but no that would be ugly.

And there it is, judgment without education...

'UGLY' is in the eye of the beholder.

Think loaf of bread, but with one LONG SIDE showing, all windows.

An unsupported arch with several hundred tons of dirt on it needed a center support... So I added a chimney for traditional combustion heating.

I restored a big, old enameled cook/heating stove. It's never been lit, makes a flat space random crap catcher, but the wife likes it and it's functional should everything else go to crap.

With ambient ground temp between 63°F and 68°F it's not like we are going to freeze...

Using natural stone accents/retaining walls outside, and with a slight tilt to the widows/low E coating reflecting the ground colors in front of it, it almost looks like its organically growing from an exposed rock formation.

With 15 foot tall glass, no shortage of light, and it's like any other home with a domed ceiling with the exception there aren't any square corners. Square corners are crack points in concrete...

I guess that would be bad if you had some compulsion for square corners, but that would be a YOU problem, not a structural problem/general population problem.

I had to fit all the cabinets/bookcases to the walls, but that's not a big deal since I'm a DIY type.

My wife put sea shells, stars, different things on the form so we have little 'Accents' in the ceiling that would drive anyone trained to live in a square box crazy...

Kitchen, dining room, living room one great room across the front, with one bedroom (office/hobby room) being the only thing walled off in the front.

I can't speak to your wife's preferences, but about everyone thinks *Basement* when I say earth sheltered.
It's anything but with 15 foot ceilings, 15' X 60' of glass, wide open spaces, lots of bright colored/patterned tiles, light colors...

I just knocked the hill top off, pit in foundation/drainage to divert ground water, poured the home, put the dirt back on. The only difference between me and any other wide open floor plan home is I mow my roof.

I had to add coverage outside because my wife thought it was TOO wide open. Some blocks just off the patio, an 8 foot tall sun room/greenhouse (heat trap) added later means anyone in the front yard can't see right into the home.

The sun room is her 'Hen House', green space with library, sewing space, and her wine swilling area with her friends as well as being a heat trap I use to regulate the home heat. Still 7 feet of unrestricted light above that added sun porch.

So much sun I planted vines that grow, hang down over the top half of the windows in summer, cut them back in winter... Again, organic, zero energy input thermal control.

Sun porch wall, vents at top and bottom. Convection draws in cooler air from the house, warm air exits the upper vents and enters the house. Exactly zero energy input for heat.

Vent the sun room outdoors, heat convection outbound draws cooler air from tubes into the home. Ground temp cools the air, removes some of wonderful humidity, circulation cycle complete, zero outside energy consumed.

Like I said, I spent 5 years researching and thinking it through...

No one thinks through a square box, and it has exactly zero character.
It's square because of precut, dimensional building materials and lack of imagination/effort.

There is a reason you pay a crap ton for curved walls and/or even crown molding.

There is a reason homes with character and things are through through are called "Craftsman Homes".

 

[JeepHammer]

I didn't mean it personally mate, its just a fact, Americans consumes more resources per person than any other country in the world by far.

For instance, your cars don't do the same MPG, you drive around in big gas guzzling 6.0l v8s , Humvees & trucks doing gallons to the mile

while we're in little 1 litre compacts lol .. doing 60/70mpg

Look at all the red meat you eat. most countries don't eat steak 5 times a week.

The fattest major country in the world , and yet look at the food waste, what is it 40% of all food in the states goes to waste? While other people (even americans) go hungry, crazy



I think part of it is just how rich America is , you've got a huge economy, you can afford a luxury lifestyle, and you've come to expect it!


Anyway I'm not saying Europe's perfect , far from , but it's interesting to look at the difference

Switch 'Luxury' to "Decadent Over Indulgant" and you hit the nail on the head.

16 years in the Maine Corps, often in completely failed, or 3rd world countries, and you get a whole different perspective...

We (Americans) have a 'Consumer' economy and mindset. This is social engineering to get us constantly MOVING, but not moving forward.

Everything MUST change or you aren't a "Real" man or woman, you aren't "Cool", etc.

Change for the sake of change, not change because something is more efficient, or updated for its function is available...

We have friends in Italy, in an European walking culture area.

The same restruants and shops that have been restruants for over 1,000/2,000 years, they sit, eat REAL food, appreciate the amazing architecture or views, and now can't get around because of huge (usually American) SUVs, get dining interrupted by smog and noise of traffic are looking to ban gas engines and large vehicles.

I live in the woods. I don't like crowds or traffic, the noise and idiots that come with that...

Not everyone can do out in the woods, not everyone can do off grid. To each their own, I won't tear into them for that.

What I will tear into them for is the idiotic constant chasing of 'Fashion', useless junk from 'Trends', collecting crap they can't use, and in a year or less don't want...

The unbelievable, astronomicly large mountains of trash they generate, and an absloute refual to be responsible in the disposal of that trash...

And yet... Those are the same people that are the first to crap all over anyone that tries to conserve, reduce, reuse, recycle.

If you don't waste it, you don't have to generate it in the first place, and you don't have to dispose of it... common sense, but then again, we are talking about America... They can afford to import more trash, and dump their trash on someone else...

 

[Nobodybusiness]

And there it is, judgment without edication...

Think loaf of bread, but with one LONG SIDE showing, all windows.

Using natural stone accents/retaining walls, and with a slight tilt to the widows/low E coating reflecting the ground colors in front of it, it almost looks like its organically growing from an exposed rock formation.

With 15 foot tall glass, no shortage of light, and it's like any other home with a domed ceiling with the exception there aren't any square corners. Square corners are crack points in concrete...

I had to fit all the cabinets/bookcases to the walls, but that's not a big deal since I'm a DIY type.

My wife put sea shells, stars, different things on the form so we have little 'Accents' in the ceiling that would drive anyone trained to live in a square box crazy...

Kitchen, dining room, living room one great room across the front, with one bedroom (office/hobby room) being the only thing walled off in the front.

I can't speak to your wife's preferences, but about everyone thinks *Basement* when I say earth sheltered.
It's anything but with 15 foot ceilings, 15' X 60' of glass, wide open spaces, lots of bright colored/patterned tiles, light colors...

I just knocked the hill top off, pit in foundation/drainage to divert ground water, poured the home, put the dirt back on. The only difference between me and any other wide open floor plan home is I mow my roof.

I had to add coverage outside because my wife thought it was TOO wide open. Some blocks just off the patio, an 8 foot tall sun room/greenhouse (heat trap) added later means anyone in the front yard can't see right into the home.

The sun room is her 'Hen House', green space with library, sewing space, and her wine swilling area with her friends as well as being a heat trap I use to regulate the home heat. Still 7 feet of unrestricted light above that added sun porch.

So much sun I planted vines that grow, hang down over the top half of the windows in summer, cut them back in winter... Again, organic, zero energy input thermal control.

Sun porch wall, vents at top and bottom. Convection draws in cooler air from the house, warm air exits the upper vents and enters the house. Exactly zero energy input for heat.

Vent the sun room outdoors, heat convection outbound draws cooler air from tubes into the home. Ground temp cools the air, removes some of wonderful humidity, circulation cycle complete, zero outside energy consumed.

Like I said, I spent 5 years researching and thinking it through...

No one thinks through a square box, and it has exactly zero character.
It's square because of precut, dimensional building materials and lack of imagination/effort.

There is a reason homes with character and things are through through are called "Craftsman Homes".

Full, partial or backside buried she wouldn’t like it so I couldn’t build it.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

f you don't waste it, you don't have to generate it in the first place, and you don't have to dispose of it... common sense, but then again, we are talking about America... They can afford to import more trash, and dump their trash on someone else...

How about building quality instead of crap that we have to buy over and over again because it’s shit quality.

After WW2 there wasn’t anything that Americans bought that wasn’t made here.

Now it’s all crap and has to be fixed or replaced.

 

[Crowz]

Wow! I guess you're in the states then... ITS AMAZING how much you guys consume , food , power , fuel

At 100kw a day average , 3,000kw a month , that'd cost north of £1,000 ($1,250usd) here in the UK


We were using 20kw a day & I thought that was a lot , so cut down to below 12kw a day ... 1200 square foot house , 5 people

One of the main problems with america is we by and large have no clue how much power were actually wasting. I was guilty of it. Even before doing the solar in my new house I didn't pay much attention to what was using what power wise.

The new house is 4000 square feet so that is a decent amount of room to have to heat and cool but the real power consumption wasn't the heating and cooling it was the bazillion wall warts for running phones, tablets, etc and other appliances left on.

After installing the emporia vue I was able to track down the waste. Our average daily power usage was 60kw a day with it getting to over 100kw at times.

After turning off what wasn't needed, unplugging what didn't need to be plugged in all the time and just paying attention more than anything else the daily usages dropped to 40kw.

After adding the hybrid inverter were using 19 to 30 kw a day now. I should have it down to 10 to 20kw a day after I get a few batteries which I can live with.

I could go a bunch lower power usage wise but my wife and I have a simple motto on that "Save what we can but never do without". Different from what I have seen others do but we don't see a reason to suffer if we don't have to

 

[wattmatters]

Solar Thermal (hot water) is a very good decision. If you look at a the rooftops of a lot of countries, you see solar hot water heaters on every rooftop. Just not in the U.S.

Solar thermal water heating is dying in Australia. It can't compete with PV + heat pump water heater or PV + diversion to resistive element. Sales of solar thermal water heating systems peaked in 2012 and have been declining ever since. It is a little different here because solar PV is relatively cheap compared to most countries. When people have a choice, they opt for the PV option because it's just way more flexible.

As to average electricity consumption, in Australia it is lower than in the USA, ranging from 8 to 20 kWh/day depending on how many people are in the household, and of course which climate zone you are in and whether the home uses gas for heating/water heating.

The CSIRO (our main govt funded scientific/research body) reported in 2018:

In terms of energy-use patterns across different types of households, our surveying found that the mean average daily electricity usage (according to one’s latest bill) was:
• highest for multiple family households (20 kWh/day per household) followed by couples with children (17 kWh/day per household).
• lowest for those living in single person households (8 kWh/day per household) and group households (12 kWh/day per household).

The Australian Energy Regulator does a triennial survey which is pretty detailed and covers each of the main climate zones in Australia:

https://www.aer.gov.au/system/files/Residential%20energy%20consumption%20benchmarks%20-%209%20December%202020_0.pdf

We are well above average, and that's almost solely due to the poor thermal performance of our home. I have worked on it but we have what we have. Still much to do.

Our home's consumption has declined by ~ 20 kWh/day over the past seven years, and I hope to keep reducing it - it's a slow process. Below is our daily average consumption per quarter including that of a second dwelling added at end of 2019, which consumes an average of 5 kWh/day.



The addition of a little more cheap off-grid PV (repurposed solar panels/rails - noting this thread is about how to get solar PV on the cheap) and battery to capture the production has helped us to get to the stage where we are now net negative (electrically), which is good because eventually our vehicle will be electric.



Based on our average mileage, 10 kWh/day will be enough to mostly cover our EV consumption, and eliminate use of liquid fossil fuels. Helped by the fact that our car will mostly be at home during the day.

 

[Ampster]

Solar thermal water heating is dying in Australia. It can't compete with PV + heat pump water heater or PV + diversion to resistive element.

I don't know when that market peaked in the USA but likely later than Australia just because your PV solar is so much less costly than in the USA.

 

[JeepHammer]

This really is the way to go, and building or totally retrofitting existing structures to obtain high efficiency makes sense, but this post was about affordability. At the moment it's not cheaper, isn't more cost effective. Just comparing even a quality USED ev to a quality used ICE vehicle there is no savings at the moment.

*IF*... everyone had to hand aquire fuel themselves, you bet insulation would go WAY up (and obesity would go down!).

The old saying wood heats you 3 times, once when you cut it and drag it in, once when you split and stack it, third time when you burn it...

When I see 'EV' I think car...
In high population density, I should be thinking E-bike. Up to 30-40 MPH with a 750 Watt motor. Particularly viable where the weather cooperates. Half a blow dryer energy suck gets you right down the road.

I'm the Stingray to 10 speed generation, and I rode the hell out of my bike out here in rural areas. Gravel roads didn't even slow us down.

Like I said, if it's within a couple miles, I use my golf cart and it's close to 40 years old. One thing about simple electric vehicles, a little maintiance and they live a LONG time. Tires, wheel bearings, an occasional electrical relay and they just keep running.

 

[1201]

As simple as I can put it in a working layman terms... with 30+ years off grid experience and hundreds of installs...

ELECTRIC ENERGY CONSERVATION!

THERE IS NO SOLAR ELECTRIC SYSTEM THAT WILL BEAT DOLLARS INVESTED
in insulation/plugging up air leaks, appliance like well insulated water heaters on timers, well insulated fridges/freezers, finding and eliminating phantom electrical loads, etc.

The math disagrees with you. Where I live in zone 3a Texas, going from code minimum r13 walls to even r1000 walls and roof will save less than $100 year. This of course assumes you have regular windows which are about r2 to r3.

Sealing your house air tight and using an erv would save approx $0 per year.

This is an extremely unpopular opinion but I'm ready to have this debate and can back it up with real numbers- code minimum plus solar(diy) is a far better value proposition than passivhaus or superinsulation