How to get solar when you can't afford it

[BuffaloTrace]

How to do solar for free or cheap? Manipulate your lifestyle and or circumstances so it becomes viable, so ROI is possible in whatever circumstances that exist.

Yes to this. That's basically how I'm doing it. I'm convinced now that I'll be dumping more insulation up in the attic, one or two doors to re-seal, that kind of stuff is going to help with the ROI for sure.

 

[sunsurfer]

im just going to say I dont believe you, and leave it at that.

He is correct. There are still allot of areas where there is no building "permits"I was looking at 3 states that had pockets when I bought land. Codes may be just "follow the state codes" but where I live there is ZERO permitting. I can even have a "lagoon" for my septic since I'm on enough land. When I was looking to get power dropped before we decided to just do solar off-grid, I asked the engineer for the power company what is requires for hooking up to the meter. He told me it was up to me and said good luck. My neighbors meter 4 houses down ( about a mile away) just has some what looks like romex coming out of the ground at an angle(kinda kinked looking)into the bottom of the meter. Your on your own out where I live and thats how everyone wants it. No money in this county. Most roads are bad and little to no bridges over creek crossings.

 

[1201]

He is correct. There are still allot of areas where there is no building "permits"I was looking at 3 states that had pockets when I bought land. Codes may be just "follow the state codes" but where I live there is ZERO permitting. I can even have a "lagoon" for my septic since I'm on enough land. When I was looking to get power dropped before we decided to just do solar off-grid, I asked the engineer for the power company what is requires for hooking up to the meter. He told me it was up to me and said good luck. My neighbors meter 4 houses down ( about a mile away) just has some what looks like romex coming out of the ground at an angle(kinda kinked looking)into the bottom of the meter. Your on your own out where I live and thats how everyone wants it. No money in this county. Most roads are bad and little to no bridges over creek crossings.

I don't have a problem with that but there is no house that stays between 65 and 80 with no HVAC system when it gets to 20 and 100 in that area.

And with 15ft tall south facing windows? Yeah, I don't buy it

 

[BuffaloTrace]

I don't have a problem with that but there is no house that stays between 65 and 80 with no HVAC system when it gets to 20 and 100 in that area.

And with 15ft tall south facing windows? Yeah, I don't buy it

I think a hole dug in the ground and made to look like a house inside would stay a pretty constant temperature if designed right..... you're talking the "modern" stick built or steel framed above ground square house. Even basements (hole in ground) stay nice and cool in the summer and don't freeze in the winter.

 

[1201]

I think a hole dug in the ground and made to look like a house inside would stay a pretty constant temperature if designed right..... you're talking the "modern" stick built or steel framed above ground square house. Even basements (hole in ground) stay nice and cool in the summer and don't freeze in the winter.

Not if you have any amount of windows.

 

[svetz]

Not if you have any amount of windows.

For the cost of windows, I wonder if anyone has replaced them with LCD panels and cameras of the outside....

 

[Crowz]

Not if you have any amount of windows.

Well actually it will. A business partners father built one of the in ground houses near here and it is amazing how easy it is to heat and air condition.

Its not a hole in the ground for the door sort of deal as much as no walls as the earth is brought up to the level of the roof. It has a roof but its technically at ground level from the ground being slopped up to it. They put the ac units and such on the roof with the roof being all dirt covered in gravel.

So yes it works wonders but they don't have an abnormal amount of front windows. The house technically just has a front exposed after all.

Also if you had enough windows across a south facing area I could see that causing problems. I honestly don't remember which direction the front of the house faces but I think it was west.

 

[BuffaloTrace]

Not if you have any amount of windows.

Basements all across the country have windows....I've been in them in the cold of winters and the hottest of summers. Dehumidifiers help but other than that they stay very constant temp regaurdless of the and compared to the amount of energy being used to heat and cool the above ground floors.

 

[Crowz]

Seems they have modded the house some since I was last there. I pulled these off of googles sat and road view stuff.


This is from the road and according to google we are looking northward so the house faces southward it seems.

This is from above :


Im guessing they replaced the gold colored gravel with white for better reflecting.

 

[1201]

For the cost of windows, I wonder if anyone has replaced them with LCD panels and cameras of the outside....

I'm sure some would be willing to give up natural light and heliotherapy to save $200 a year

 

[sunsurfer]

I don't have a problem with that but there is no house that stays between 65 and 80 with no HVAC system when it gets to 20 and 100 in that area.

And with 15ft tall south facing windows? Yeah, I don't buy it

Oh yes, I see what you mean. I was just talking with someone with an earth shelter home the other day and they said it helps but they still need AC.

A buried dome home in the ground would be stable. That we all know but those exposed wall and roof is to much for a zero climate controlled structure to not have an affect.

 

[wattmatters]

For the cost of windows, I wonder if anyone has replaced them with LCD panels and cameras of the outside....

Not quite but there is this:

 

[JeepHammer]

im just going to say I dont believe you, and leave it at that.

Your 'Beliefs' are yours...

I believe I'll have some fresh strawberries!

 

[JeepHammer]

I don't have a problem with that but there is no house that stays between 65 and 80 with no HVAC system when it gets to 20 and 100 in that area.

And with 15ft tall south facing windows? Yeah, I don't buy it

No one asked you to 'Buy' anything.
I paid for it all...

Yes, I did go too far with windows, which is why 8 feet at the bottom now has a green house outside the windows, and there are vines grown from above to shade windows from the top.

Vines are renewable, I cut them back in winter to get more sun, let them grow in summer for shade.

I NEED more glass in winter, don't need it in summer... the same way homes used to have porches and awnings to shade windows before Air Conditioning.

Low winter sun gets in, high summer sun doesn't make it past porches/awnings.

THERE WAS CLIMATE CONTOL BEFORE FORCED HVAC...

I didn't want to cut winter ice and store it for summer use... The way it used to be done, I got an icemaker for my iced tea...
Couldn't exactly see building that far down, battling the runoff water, insulating the crap out of a hole, having 90% losses to have a few ice cubes in August...

Now, if someone wants to do a little Google search, you will find people growing citrus in Minnesota, with earthen and geo-thermal greenhouses...
That IS worth the effort.

Just a little research into soil types, non-permiable clay to keep water out, or evaporation rates in different soil types...
Evaporstion means COOLING, so the top layers can very well be watered to drop temps... I use sod, great water holding and thermal properties.

That's why settlers used sod for homes... Before HVAC, and it still works.

Maybe walk into a Spanish mission/church from the 1600s...
Adobe walls are crazy thermally efficient, soaks up heat all day, radiates it all night.
Big bell tower (turret) when they had no bell. Ever wonder why?

Shade the air, it cools, gets more dense, and falls into the church to cool it... NO HVAC required.

Root cellars, natural floors that provided/controlled humidity. Root cellars go back as far as modern man.

That's earth heat control, no HVAC required. The deeper/wetter the cooler from both earth shelter AND evaporation cooling.

Even dogs & pigs know if they scratch up some fresh earth its a cooler place to be... No HVAC required.

Now, I just gave you a little bit of the research I did, ice houses, Spanish missions, adobe, sod, and basic facts, but you 'Believe' what you want to 'Believe' no matter what the historical facts are, this is America and if you choose NOT to believe in thermodynamics then that's your choice...

If you want to ignore the parts where I clearly state I have triple pane, inert gas charged windows with low E coatings... super thermal efficient AND are perfectly suited to my purpose,
Then say it "Can't Happen"... Why? Because you missed or ignored those parts to fit your narrative?

I've said time and time again the biggest mistake I made was not using standard size windows... it wasn't a mistake to use triple pane, gas charged windows, just custom sizes/shapes that cost a fortune.

Low E coating bounces the low summer sun off in summer, let's the light that will be converted to heat right inside in the winter... What is it about that you don't understand?

Minimum of 5 feet of earth on top, waterproof clay insualtion on the bottom, evaporation and insulation on top, much more than 5 feet on 3 sides for heat banking. What about that you don't understand?

'Believe' what you want, holes in your education/understanding/experience aren't my issue.

Anyone with a background in HVAC should understand simple ducting, moving heat around, so I can't help you.

 

[JeepHammer]

Basements all across the country have windows....I've been in them in the cold of winters and the hottest of summers. Dehumidifiers help but other than that they stay very constant temp regaurdless of the and compared to the amount of energy being used to heat and cool the above ground floors.

And that's with old, metal frame, single pane windows that leak like crazy, don't have coatings, etc...

Some people have 'Beliefs', like two different governers saying solar panels 'Damage' the sun, and wind turbines give you cancer...

'Beliefs' have NOTHING to do with facts...

 

[1201]

No one asked you to 'Buy' anything.
I paid for it all...

Yes, I did go too far with windows, which is why 8 feet at the bottom now has a green house outside the windows, and there are vines grown from above to shade windows from the top.

Vines are renewable, I cut them back in winter to get more sun, let them grow in summer for shade.

I NEED more glass in winter, don't need it in summer... the same way homes used to have porches and awnings to shade windows before Air Conditioning.

Low winter sun gets in, high summer sun doesn't make it past porches/awnings.

THERE WAS CLIMATE CONTOL BEFORE FORCED HVAC...

I didn't want to cut winter ice and store it for summer use... The way it used to be done, I got an icemaker for my iced tea...
Couldn't exactly see building that far down, battling the runoff water, insulating the crap out of a hole, having 90% losses to have a few ice cubes in August...

Now, if someone wants to do a little Google search, you will find people growing citrus in Minnesota, with earthen and geo-thermal greenhouses...
That IS worth the effort.

Just a little research into soil types, non-permiable clay to keep water out, or evaporation rates in different soil types...
Evaporstion means COOLING, so the top layers can very well be watered to drop temps... I use sod, great water holding and thermal properties.

That's why settlers used sod for homes... Before HVAC, and it still works.

Maybe walk into a Spanish mission/church from the 1600s...
Adobe walls are crazy thermally efficient, soaks up heat all day, radiates it all night.
Big bell tower (turret) when they had no bell. Ever wonder why?

Shade the air, it cools, gets more dense, and falls into the church to cool it... NO HVAC required.

Root cellars, natural floors that provided/controlled humidity. Root cellars go back as far as modern man.

That's earth heat control, no HVAC required. The deeper/wetter the cooler from both earth shelter AND evaporation cooling.

Even dogs & pigs know if they scratch up some fresh earth its a cooler place to be... No HVAC required.

Now, I just gave you a little bit of the research I did, ice houses, Spanish missions, adobe, sod, and basic facts, but you 'Believe' what you want to 'Believe' no matter what the historical facts are, this is America and if you choose NOT to believe in thermodynamics then that's your choice...

If you want to ignore the parts where I clearly state I have triple pane, inert gas charged windows with low E coatings... super thermal efficient AND are perfectly suited to my purpose,
Then say it "Can't Happen"... Why? Because you missed or ignored those parts to fit your narrative?

I've said time and time again the biggest mistake I made was not using standard size windows... it wasn't a mistake to use triple pane, gas charged windows, just custom sizes/shapes that cost a fortune.

Low E coating bounces the low summer sun off in summer, let's the light that will be converted to heat right inside in the winter... What is it about that you don't understand?

Minimum of 5 feet of earth on top, waterproof clay insualtion on the bottom, evaporation and insulation on top, much more than 5 feet on 3 sides for heat banking. What about that you don't understand?

'Believe' what you want, holes in your education/understanding/experience aren't my issue.

Anyone with a background in HVAC should understand simple ducting, moving heat around, so I can't help you.

Wow you are wordy!
I have a passive solar house but thanks for the education ?

 

[12VoltInstalls]

I’m unclear on how dirt lets one get solar when you can’t afford it.

Besides, while earth sheltered construction offers some benefits, I’ve never seen any miracles happen with earth sheltered homes. They’ve been being done in a ‘modern’ ‘scientific’ way by certain predictable population segments since the 1970’s with a wide variation in results in New England but not without issues.

There’s one particular one I’m familiar with that’s been around a while… one could pay an awful lot of electric bills for the cost of what the engineer/architect did 30+ years ago. Where do you spend your money and how long do you expect to live?! I can’t imagine the cost of building that today.

Earth sheltered true believers always have the most perfect setups and say they never have any issues but being around the home construction industry most of my life I’m quite convinced it’s not for me. Plus, the construction cost of the “successful” units has shocked me, and their ongoing moisture control….

Ya, give me something I can open some windows. I’ve been sorta hoping all my life to stay above ground with no piece of granite with my name on it.

'Beliefs' have NOTHING to do with facts...

Quite true. Sometimes.

The only way to buy in to solar when you can’t afford it is to make it affordable. Either by scaling one’s life to manipulate expenses to make it affordable, or by increasing income beyond necessity.
You could finance it but that might be stupid: if you can’t afford it today, putting it off until tomorrow when one doesn’t make lifestyle changes is a losing game.

In the end most people aren’t willing to adjust their lives or work more, work harder. What it is is that they can’t think through wants versus need; and more importantly can’t understand the difference between “I want to…this” and “I am doing…,this” and have little wisdom on the brevity of life. So they chase satisfying want and never improve their lives substantially. Health or death will take it all away eventually.

To do anything worthwhile it takes wisdom, work, and a willingness to overcome challenges.

 

[svetz]

I'm sure some would be willing to give up natural light and heliotherapy to save $200 a year

I was just making a joke. Should have used a smiley face and the joke would be funnier if some weren't actually promoting the idea.

Still $200 a year is a bit of change, is it really that much? Well, let's see....

Assume TV costs same as equal size double pane window with, R-Value of 2 vs. insulated wall value of R-23 where R= ?T/BTU/h and ?T=40F.

Rearranging, BTU/h = ?T / R, a double pane window has a heat loss of 20 BTU/h per sqft. A wall has a heat loss of 1.7 BTU/h/sqft. With a 54"x34" (65") TV as the viewing space that would be 255 BTU/h for a window and 22 BTU/h for a TV. A delta of 232.7 BTU/hr, or In watts, that's a delta of 68.5 W/h-window.

Let's say that ?T only lasts for 100 days. So that's 68.5W/h/window x 24 h/d x 100 d = 164.3 kW/window/season. It's linear, so lets say for 100 days in the summer there's a ?T=20F, that's 82 kW/window/season.

In Winter, using a heat pump (no fossil fuels in the future) with a COP of 3 (Q/W), that's 164 kW / 3 =55 kW. At $0.15/kWh, that's $8.25/winter/y. In Summer, 83 / 3 x 0.15 = $4.15/summer/y, or $12.45/y/window. With a constant COP we can assume the heat generated by the TVs in winter (which reduces heat load) is canceled out by the cooling required in summer. There's a lot of heat loss via air-leaks, so the actual savings should be more.

If you had 10 windows, that would be $120/y savings. So, not quite $200 per year. Still, if you're thinking about hurricane glass, this might be a better option.

But, from this, we can deduce that Mr. 1201 has $200 / 12.45 = ~16 windows and over 20 years will throw away $4,000. ; -)

Regarding heliotherapy, it would be cheaper and healthier to just have a garden outside. I wonder if TVs use "natural" light LEDs?

I think the TV would need a sensor to change the camera's angle of view based on the viewer's distance from the window. ; -)

 

[12VoltInstalls]

wonder if TVs use "natural" light LEDs

They have selective panes that switch so essentially, yes, “they do” but in practical terms they’re just heavy on blue.
That’s simplistic. I’m not an EE

 

[Hedges]

I think the TV would need a sensor to change the camera's angle of view based on the viewer's distance from the window. ; -)

3-D, larger version of VR headset for your cell phone.

https://www.amazon.com/Headset-Compatible-iPhone-Android-Phones/dp/B07WRYK1BD

Since this is a DIY forum: