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Midnite Solar Announced their new 10kw AIO at Intersolar Today

Robin Gudgel said:
Ryan’s response isn’t 100% correct, so I will attempt to clarify it here. The “ODM did not give us a ten year warranty. What is an “ODM?”. We are using a very established and competent manufacturer to build the ONE for us. It is our design! We cannot in the USA buy components as inexpensively as they can. Plus we have to pay at least 25% tariffs on every resistor, capacitor, PCB, transistor etc as these parts are virtually not made in the US any longer. We aren’t happy at all about that, but what can we do? We really take it in the shorts in order to manufacture the Rosie, our charge controllers and dozens of other products in Washington state where I have been designing and manufacturing electronic products since 1970. We want to build and design as much in the US as possible rather than give our technology away. I want to thank all of you who have supported us over the years. It is really important. We are the last inverter manufacturer in the US for this kind of stuff. Now back to warranties. We designed the ONE. We just don’t manufacture it in Arlington Wa. MidNite Solar is providing the second five years of warranty for the ONE. We have confidence in the product. The design and quality of the build. We have our own people that monitor production. The ONE is a grid tie inverter. We have to offer a ten year warranty by law. So, why don’t we have a ten year warranty on the Rosie? Good question! I come from the offgrid world where five year warranties have been the norm for 25 years. I guess the off-grid industry hasn’t caught up to the grid tie world yet. I will take a serious look at that though as it is a great question. I would also like to point out that having designed and or manufactured inverters at Trace Engineering, Outback, Xantrex and Magnum Energy, I and our other engineers have always tried to make indestructible inverters. Have any of you had the opportunity to see or use a Trace inverter? Chances are it was made before you were born. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that over 80% of those 30+ year old inverters still work, We have the core engineers from Trace, Outback and Magnum as well as dozens of the assemblers from these great companies here at MidNite. Our engineers do not scrimp on the designs. We design them for longevity. I can’t say that about some of the other AIO inverters out there. So, I wouldn’t be too worried about the Rosie. It is going to last just like all the other inverters I have been involved with.
Thank you,
Robin Gudgel
President
MidNite Solar
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Before my Sol-Ark system, I was running an Outback Radian and supporting pieces and Flexmax charge controllers. The hardware was flawless. However, the lack of Outback is designing a model greater than 8k was a factor in my decision to let it go. I understand they can parallel. Also, the decision to stay on the low voltage charge controllers couple with their lower amperage was a hinderance. And no real closed loop support for lithium batteries was also a drawback.

If Outback came out with a 16K AIO with closed loop and high voltage mppt, I would jump all over it.

As for your 10K inverter, I am very interested in applying it to replace 2 SMA grid tie inverters. But the installation is outdoors and NEMA 4 is advantageous over 3R. Also, a fanless convection system is an advantage over cooling fans outdoors too. The new SMA hybrids have no fan. But they are currently locked to BYD batteries only.

I hope to learn more about your 10k and outdoor use.

All of my midnight solar hardware is of high quality being combiner boxes, breakers, surge arrestors and I like all of your products.
 
Robin Gudgel said:
I had to cut out a significant portion of my 200 amp whole house write up due to the length allowed here. I would ask you to go on the MidNite Solar website for the full write up when it gets posted. It also includes a write up I found by Barry Cinnamon of Cinnamon Energy systems. Barry is a California dealer/installer. Barry did his own write up on the subject of whole house back up. I do not know Barry and have never spoken to him, but he came to the same conclusion as I and several others here have done. Whole house back up can certainly be done, but you need to go into it with your eyes open or it could cost many thousands of dollars more than you budgeted for. So, please read these full write ups and then decide for yourself.
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Well, I read your post and some of it is very good. I think it is important to remember, that some folks with solar can rely on daily PV to charge their batteries and supply their loads. For those folks, the situation is not that dire. They only need batteries to support them from say 5-7 PM until 8-9 AM depending on the time of the year. And if the power is out for 14 hours, then a 60 kWh battery bank could provide about 4 kW an hour of power. So good DC ceiling fans, the internet and TV and refrigerator and an air fryer or toaster oven are a must. Remember, some persons have propane /gas hot water heaters and furnaces and even cook tops, so their loads are less. A 10 kWh inverter would do the job. I think it is most important though that an inverter support a generator input for periods of extended grid outages and 2-4 days of cloudy storms. Today, even a portable generator could output close to 10kW burning propane, nat gas or diesel. Gasoline too costly.

I would actually love it if I could remove my current panel breakers and replace them with a wifi enabled breaker that I could then power ON or OFF from my phone or web app or even by the inverter if it sensed the grid was out. I would not need a subpanel this way and could pick and choose as the situation required.
 
Scat said:
I have heard here in Florida that a generator must be more that 5 feet from a window or door opening, your is right under the window.
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It's not just Florida. Carbon Monoxide kills and modern models include CO detectors built in and with automatic shut offs so as not to kill people. Remember, Florida is one of the last states in the Union to adopt any kind of consumer protection laws.
 
I'm glad to see more competition in the high end AIO space. 3-4 of these would serve my farm well when my current system eventually bites the dust.
 
The new MidNite AIO has a separate 60 amp gen input. That same input can also be a 60 amp smart load output. One or the other. Nobody has correctly figured out our manufacturing facility. We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them. We have put too much Time, money and IP into this company to let others use them.
 
glandpuck said:
Before my Sol-Ark system, I was running an Outback Radian and supporting pieces and Flexmax charge controllers. The hardware was flawless. However, the lack of Outback is designing a model greater than 8k was a factor in my decision to let it go. I understand they can parallel. Also, the decision to stay on the low voltage charge controllers couple with their lower amperage was a hinderance. And no real closed loop support for lithium batteries was also a drawback.

If Outback came out with a 16K AIO with closed loop and high voltage mppt, I would jump all over it.

As for your 10K inverter, I am very interested in applying it to replace 2 SMA grid tie inverters. But the installation is outdoors and NEMA 4 is advantageous over 3R. Also, a fanless convection system is an advantage over cooling fans outdoors too. The new SMA hybrids have no fan. But they are currently locked to BYD batteries only.

I hope to learn more about your 10k and outdoor use.

All of my midnight solar hardware is of high quality being combiner boxes, breakers, surge arrestors and I like all of your products.
Click to expand...
True 2 18ks and that should be able to power all loads based on Robin’s estimates.
I still think the pass through capacity would be limited to the max on one inverter
 
Robin Gudgel said:
The new MidNite AIO has a separate 60 amp gen input. That same input can also be a 60 amp smart load output. One or the other. Nobody has correctly figured out our manufacturing facility. We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them. We have put too much Time, money and IP into this company to let others use them.
Click to expand...
Guessing there are some legal clauses in there as well .
Because I don’t know about many here but you can get Chinese fm80 and it says out back fm80 looks exactly the same.
These came out when Outback switched production to china.
Outback seems a bit powerless in getting this eliminated as well.
 
Mahendra Gomanie said:
Guessing there are some legal clauses in there as well .
Because I don’t know about many here but you can get Chinese fm80 and it says out back fm80 looks exactly the same.
These came out when Outback switched production to china.
Outback seems a bit powerless in getting this eliminated as well.
Click to expand...
Very little IP protection in China.
 
Robin Gudgel said:
Nobody has correctly figured out our manufacturing facility. We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them. We have put too much Time, money and IP into this company to let others use them.
Click to expand...
If I was your vendor, and I read this in a public forum, I would be unhappy with the sense of propriety expressed here. Do you really intend to suppress your vendor's ability to grow and work for others? In the long term, the more they work for others, the more they gain experience, and the better able they will be to serve you, too.

Mike C.
 
mciholas said:
If I was your vendor, and I read this in a public forum, I would be unhappy with the sense of propriety expressed here. Do you really intend to suppress your vendor's ability to grow and work for others? In the long term, the more they work for others, the more they gain experience, and the better able they will be to serve you, too.

Mike C.
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Sounds like their vendor also builds equipment for Eaton, so not exactly stifling their operation. If anything the Midnite venture is a growth opportunity for them.
 
Robin Gudgel said:
The new MidNite AIO has a separate 60 amp gen input. That same input can also be a 60 amp smart load output. One or the other. Nobody has correctly figured out our manufacturing facility. We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them. We have put too much Time, money and IP into this company to let others use them.
Click to expand...
mciholas said:
If I was your vendor, and I read this in a public forum, I would be unhappy with the sense of propriety expressed here. Do you really intend to suppress your vendor's ability to grow and work for others? In the long term, the more they work for others, the more they gain experience, and the better able they will be to serve you, too.

Mike C.
Click to expand...
He is talking about manufacturing IP and trade secrets, not sure what that has to do with sales. There are laws protecting trade secrets. Pretty standard stuff.
 
Robin Gudgel said:
The new MidNite AIO has a separate 60 amp gen input. That same input can also be a 60 amp smart load output.
Click to expand...
Some day, it would be nice to have a smart load output standard that could work with appliances. Divert all that unused solar to heating or cooling as the batts come up to charge. A simple control signal (standardized PWM reference would work) so DC appliances could divert directly at the batts.
 
One way to do that with AC loads (for off-grid operation) is frequency shift.
Rule-21 inverters ramp down power output from 100% at 60.5 Hz to 0% at 61 Hz.
A motor speed control or heating element PWM (with PFC on AC input) could ramp up from 0% draw at 60 Hz to 100% draw at 60.5 Hz.
 
sunsurfer said:
He is talking about manufacturing IP and trade secrets, not sure what that has to do with sales.
Click to expand...
They are using a CM (contract manufacturer). He indicated he wants to keep them from having other customers by saying this:

"We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them."

That's not saying others would use MNS IP, it is saying MNS wants to block the CM from new customers.

There are ways to find out where it is being built so the "secret" won't last long. I suspect the statement was intended mostly to create an aura of exclusivity and exceptionalism about the product, not so much about the CM actually being secret or captured.

Mike C.
 
mciholas said:
They are using a CM (contract manufacturer). He indicated he wants to keep them from having other customers by saying this:

"We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them."

That's not saying others would use MNS IP, it is saying MNS wants to block the CM from new customers.

There are ways to find out where it is being built so the "secret" won't last long. I suspect the statement was intended mostly to create an aura of exclusivity and exceptionalism about the product, not so much about the CM actually being secret or captured.

Mike C.
Click to expand...
Well, thats some speculation on the intent. Still, pretty standard stuff. No harm in trying to protect a buisness investment. There are two standard ways to protect IP, patents and trade secrets.

Protection for innovation is what built this country. Who wants to innovate if someone can just steal your idea and all your hard work becomes worthless? Its good for advancement of technology and has been proven over the decades.
 
mciholas said:
They are using a CM (contract manufacturer). He indicated he wants to keep them from having other customers by saying this:

"We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them."

That's not saying others would use MNS IP, it is saying MNS wants to block the CM from new customers.

There are ways to find out where it is being built so the "secret" won't last long. I suspect the statement was intended mostly to create an aura of exclusivity and exceptionalism about the product, not so much about the CM actually being secret or captured.

Mike C.
Click to expand...
If you pay a contract manufacturer to tool up for production of your product, would you want them to use your investement to turn around and start manufacturing a competing product before you even hit the market? I doubt it.
 
Q-Dog said:
If you pay a contract manufacturer to tool up for production of your product, would you want them to use your investement to turn around and start manufacturing a competing product before you even hit the market? I doubt it.
Click to expand...
The CM has no rights to the MNS design, so this isn't an issue about them using that IP for others.

You guys are confusing IP rights with business sovereignty. The CM has the right to seek out other business with other companies building other things. That is, unless MNS is paying them an appropraite amount of money to establish an exclusivity in some way, but that money has to make up for the lost business opportunity.

I think this all just promotional talk and the secrecy of their CM is really not really at issue here. This is just "make the customer feel special" stuff.

Mike C.
 
mciholas said:
The CM has no rights to the MNS design, so this isn't an issue about them using that IP for others.

You guys are confusing IP rights with business sovereignty. The CM has the right to seek out other business with other companies building other things. That is, unless MNS is paying them an appropraite amount of money to establish an exclusivity in some way, but that money has to make up for the lost business opportunity.

I think this all just promotional talk and the secrecy of their CM is really not really at issue here. This is just "make the customer feel special" stuff.

Mike C.
Click to expand...
And this is all just speculation since you have no idea what arrangement Midnite has with this manufacturer. I'll defer to the president of the company.
 
mciholas said:
The CM has no rights to the MNS design, so this isn't an issue about them using that IP for others.

You guys are confusing IP rights with business sovereignty. The CM has the right to seek out other business with other companies building other things. That is, unless MNS is paying them an appropraite amount of money to establish an exclusivity in some way, but that money has to make up for the lost business opportunity.

I think this all just promotional talk and the secrecy of their CM is really not really at issue here. This is just "make the customer feel special" stuff.

Mike C.
Click to expand...
And you are confusing American law with Chinese practice
 
Brucey said:
Just like the fake Victron SCCs, if the name wasn't different, hard to tell until you connect up the vedirect port and try and update its firmware....
Click to expand...
Initially it was listed as Outback fm80 on Alibaba. I got it from an ad when I came across it
 
Lighten up Mike C and enjoy life.
Stop being so suspicious of everything typed here, it's only the interwebs.
 
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