House burned down

D71 said:

How about source web links to those fuses and fuse mounts?

Watch this

~3:30 mark watch Will Prowse test a T class fuse.

Click to expand...

Will add, they are in the post iI replied to.

D71 said:

~3:30 mark watch Will Prowse test a T class fuse.

Click to expand...

I always loved the edit in that video right after the short. it makes me giggle knowing Will soiled his pants and edited it out.

OffGridInTheCity said:

Inadequate wall thimble for generator exhaust. The idea was to store/run generators from in the shed for shelter and noise abatement. And in fact, I ran the generators every other month for over a year and all seemed OK. The exhaust didn't seem that hot after 5 feet of exhaust pipe - I could pass my hand thru the exhaust.

On the day of the fire, I did a 40min generator run around noon, finished, and visually checked things - all seemed OK. However, it appears a smoldering fire was started and broke out of the wall 12hrs later ~midnight. By 1am the tanks were torching.

There was a formal fire investigation and I learned a few things from the fire folks. For example, did you know that wood can ignite as low as 200F? My research indicated more like 400-500F. Also, wood can slowly char over time from heat and lower the ignition point.

Yikes - DIY has risks and I feel so bad tarnishing DIY'ing with my mistakes.... e.g. inadequate thimble but even more so, not thinking clearly that the outside of a shed wall is *flammable* and propane must not be stored near anything flammable.

And BTW... the Champion 100297 w/74db specs was still causing 70db 5 feet from outside the shed with 2x6 framing, insulation. siding, and double dry-wall! Noise abatement was a failure. Going forward I'm going to spend $ for a Honda eu7000is with 58db and run in the open for emergency power.

Click to expand...

Fire can be tricky, back when I was an apprentice HVAC guy I got called out to service a zero clearance gas fireplace.

They would start it and a little while later it would make a whooshing sound so they had only used it a few times since new. The gas was leaking back in the wall cavity and igniting in the wall, it would burn up the oxygen and snuff itself out. It was chard black with 1/4” of charcoal.

The original installer had hard piped into a wall fireplace valve ran a flex from there in the wall cavity to a 1/2” nipple going into the fireplace, when they hooked it up they spun the nipple twisting up the gas flex in the wall causing a leak.

It was a miracle the house didn’t burn down, it had been like that for about 12 years when I found it.

Just to get beyond the fuses and BMS type in the failure discussion, what do you guys think about spacers, shelf deflection and its potential impacts?

I know cheap utility shelves will deflect at about 1:120 at their rated load, so I did some back-of-napkin math and came up with a worst-case spacer requirement of about 1mm between cells (assuming 50% compressibility) for a single row of 16x280Ah cells on a 48" shelf. A 1,000 pound rated shelf seems to really be the minimum suitable for cells when you factor in some compression and standard 0.5mm spacers.

robbob2112 said:

My plan is to run as many amps as I can put through them with a clamp meter to monitor and the 1035+ meter to measure the resistance and how it changes over time.

Click to expand...

The way I make higher AC amps is wire a transformer as either isolation or auto-transformer, use a breaker (fuse in your case) to short out the LV secondary windings, connect primary in series with resistive load.

480V windings in series with 120V windings delivers 5x current through device under test, e.g. 1800W 120V space heater draws 15A, breaker being tested sees 75A at 24V. With low enough resistance load it should be possible to get over 1000A and fast-trip a 200A breaker, with 200A circuit and 25kVA 240/480 to 120/240V transformer.

I have a transformer salvaged from an old UPS, the primary was 120v and the secondary was rectified and regulated to a charge voltage of 54v, old APC unit.

I assume it is a 2:1 winding. There is another wire on the secondary, might be center tap?

robbob2112 said:

will blow the anl, mega,

Click to expand...

a guy in germany tested the mega fuses from different brands
if someone want to watch, very interesting.

turn on subtitles

_voltmeter_ said:

a guy in germany tested the mega fuses from different brands
if someone want to watch, very interesting.

Click to expand...

First Video: Didn't understand many words other than milliohm and shunt, but the testing was well done, and the slo-mo captures were perfect.
Thank you for posting those.

Because of this house burned down thread, I have upgraded all of my old Victron/Littelfuse 58V-rated MEGA fuses (like the ones in the video) to these:
They are rated 2.5 kA AIC at 70V. Since I run at 48-55V, I'm hoping there is additional margin.

robbob2112 said:

I have a transformer salvaged from an old UPS, the primary was 120v and the secondary was rectified and regulated to a charge voltage of 54v, old APC unit.

I assume it is a 2:1 winding. There is another wire on the secondary, might be center tap?

Click to expand...

Could be, you'll know as soon as you power it up and check with DMM.
Can power up with low voltage secondary of another transformer, when you're not sure what winding is what, to avoid over-voltage.
(Now where did I put my Variac??)

If 2:1, you can wire primary and secondary in series as auto-transformer for 3:1.
If that's a center-tap you've got 4:1, auto-transformer would be 5:1

ricardocello said:

Didn't understand many words

Click to expand...

you can turn on subtitles

After watching that video not sure anyone should be using mega fuses

Nobodybusiness said:

Sorry for your loss.

I know this is a sensitive subject but you said insurance is no problem.

Did you have your system inspected by the county? Permitted?

The reason I ask is there has been some debate on here about insurance companies denying claims for DIY installations.

Click to expand...

Some areas of some State’s, Solar is new to inspectors and some inspectors have hardly any clue what they are looking at. My Inspector told me when he approved: nice job, looks good. I’m an electrician & it was my first ever solar build and off-grid. I wasn’t even sure I was doing everything correctly.

OffGrid Tony said:

Some areas of some State’s, Solar is new to inspectors and some inspectors have hardly any clue what they are looking at. My Inspector told me when he approved: nice job, looks good. I’m an electrician & it was my first ever solar build and off-grid. I wasn’t even sure I was doing everything correctly.

Click to expand...

What if you didn’t get it inspected and house burned down because of it?

Insurance still pay or not?
Non Inspected DIY installation burn house down are they still paying?

That is the question being asked.

Nobodybusiness said:

What if you didn’t get it inspected and house burned down because of it?

Insurance still pay or not?
Non Inspected DIY installation burn house down are they still paying?

That is the question being asked.

Click to expand...

People do uninspected work on their homes all the time. Sometimes horribly. And sometimes it goes horribly wrong. I have never heard of insurance refusing to pay over that. I'm sure the banks would love to have insurance not pay.

SparkyJJO said:

People do uninspected work on their homes all the time. Sometimes horribly. And sometimes it goes horribly wrong. I have never heard of insurance refusing to pay over that. I'm sure the banks would love to have insurance not pay.

Click to expand...

I assume there's a range of responses from various insurance companies, just like auto insurance some have a reputation for being difficult when it comes time to pay out a claim. The OP is in the Netherlands I believe, plus he had the whole thing signed off by an electrician.

Brucey said:

I assume there's a range of responses from various insurance companies, just like auto insurance some have a reputation for being difficult when it comes time to pay out a claim. The OP is in the Netherlands I believe, plus he had the whole thing signed off by an electrician.

Click to expand...

He already said there's no insurance issue.

Brucey said:

The OP is in the Netherlands I believe

Click to expand...

Belgium.

rhino said:

After watching that video not sure anyone should be using mega fuses

Click to expand...

why not? they do what they are built for
but you can use class t fuses as well they will protect the wiring like the mega fuses

fuses are not built for protecting battery banks
if someone think they are, then he or she will learn the hard way.

Nobodybusiness said:

What if you didn’t get it inspected and house burned down because of it?

Insurance still pay or not?
Non Inspected DIY installation burn house down are they still paying?

That is the question being asked.

Click to expand...

In my case, I'm US with State Farm. An inadequate, DIY generator exhaust thimble thru-the-shed-wall started a fire after 1.5yrs of generator runs - NOTE: DIY all the way here.

The insurance company paid MY damage with no trouble.

However, the fire resulted in property damage to 2 x of my neighbors - on the order of 20K of claims overall. As I understand the process - the question then becomes - do "I" pay (e.g. does State Farm pay) or is it the responsibility of the neighbors to collect from their respective insurances - who in turn might sue me personally.

Because of the DIY nature there is no product manufacturer to point a finger to and the damage extending beyond my property, State Farm called in an full IAAI fire investigator for a court level factual report. They didn't share details but 1) The fire was found free of Arson or Fraud however.... 2) negligence was found. I don't know the level of negligence - I assume it was not gross negligence, but more like lessor/accidental negligence of failing to do all I could (such as storing propane tanks near a shed wall that could burn) which activates the "Liability" portion of my policy.

Thus, State Farm has decided they will deal with the neighbors - so in a way it's good for me as they are experts and will get sign-off before paying so I won't likely get sued. Fortunately (both morally and legally) there was no people or pet injury and one guy said "it's just property damage" which I took to mean it's much easier to settle. *This is why it's important to have high liability in addition to just 'your' coverage! 100K, 300K, or 500K is typical - I have 300K. What if the fire had caught a neighbor's house on fire? and negligence is determined.

It's only been 5 weeks, so I don't know the final outcome yet. And will State Farm offer a renewal of my insurance when it comes due in a few months?

I'd be interested from any insurance people or others that have been thru this if my description above makes sense. There's no useable info on Google and all involved are pretty tight lipped with me.

State Farm folks have all been very nice I have to say.

State Farm will pack up their toys and go home.



Or maybe that is just in California - does Oregon allow insurance companies to set their own rates, e.g. according to losses and risks?

I have one house insured by AAA, been with them for over 2 decades.
Other house with State Farm, written 6 months before they stopped issuing new policies.
They've cancelled a number of policies nearby, homes in among trees. I'm hoping that being within the city proper, which conducts annual vegetation inspections, mine will be considered among the money makers rather than excessive risks.

OffGridInTheCity said:

FYI, I'm US and have State Farm insurance and even though my DIY setup was found to be the cause - e.g. there is some potential liability - they have paid the claim and were very nice about it all. Not sure if they will cancel my policy at renewal time... will have to see.

Click to expand...

Once burned, twice shy?

On one hand, you're now much more aware so less likely to repeat.

On the other hand, you're still going to DIY and don't have deep pockets; a fire due to commercially made and professionally installed equipment gives them someone to go after.


Then there are the Fire Truck chasers.
I got a letter from a legal firm saying there had been a residential fire nearby, and they could help me get compensation I might be entitled to due to damage from the smoke which wafted over.

Hedges said:

Or maybe that is just in California - does Oregon allow insurance companies to set their own rates, e.g. according to losses and risks?

Click to expand...

Oregon is still normal (compared to CA) and no word State Farm will be pulling out. One of the big deals in Oregon right now is trying to add a tax on all homeowners in the State to help pay for woodland fires anywhere in the State instead of just the owners (private but mostly govt) of the forest lands.

What class T fuses are people using? The Blue Sea Class T Fuses are rated for 125V. I'm not sure how that works with a 48V system, does the voltage not matter as long as it's higher and the amperage for the fuse is dialed in?

Blue Sea is generally using Little fuse. Current connected has good prices on them verse amazon


Voltage of 125v is fine for 48v. That is a max rating verses a working rating.

SparkyJJO said:

He already said there's no insurance issue.

Click to expand...

In his case I know that to be true..

OffGridInTheCity said:

Because of the DIY nature there is no product manufacturer to point a finger to and the damage extending beyond my property, State Farm called in an full IAAI fire investigator for a court level factual report. They didn't share details but 1) The fire was found free of Arson or Fraud however.... 2) negligence was found. I don't know the level of negligence - I assume it was not gross negligence, but more like lessor/accidental negligence of failing to do all I could (such as storing propane tanks near a shed wall that could burn) which activates the "Liability" portion of my policy.

Click to expand...

so as long as it not intentional they just let it go?
Interesting.
I wonder if that will change in the future with all the DIY installations going on.

Nobodybusiness said:

In his case I know that to be true..

so as long as it not intentional they just let it go?
Interesting.
I wonder if that will change in the future with all the DIY installations going on.

Click to expand...

I don't know, but my sense is that it's not an issue of DIY. Although the IAAI fire investigator was poker faced but actually seemed more upset that I wired electricity to the shed without a formal permit - even thought that clearly had nothing to do with the fire and even though in my jurisdiction a home owner may wire his own property. What the field adjuster actually commented on was that the DIY part is crucial in terms of is there a vendor that sold a product that can be blamed. Once it's clear there's no 'product' then.....

Once it's not Fraud or Arson then....

If the home owner did anything negligent? or if they determine there 'could be liability'?, then yes, State Farm decided to help me in response to neighbor damage. BUT, negligence or liability has a large range that has nothing to do with DIY and is not clear to me. I believe in my case - the improper (although common) storage of propane tanks next to an outside wall could be an example of enough negligence that it activates the liability portion of my insurance. So DIY is not the core issue necessarily. I mean if you're trying to do home-grown hydrogen and it blows up then maybe... but an exhaust thimble that starts a fire over a long period of time... not the same level as home-grown hydrogen generation.

But I'm speculating and would love to hear from someone who actually know how the insurance process works.