All in one vs separate components for critical loads?

Greetings, Just joined and first post. I've been looking into solar now for a few months and watching will and others on youtube ...got me here. I don't have anything yet so this would be a fresh start. My objective is the following: We're trying to move out more rural shortly and the way the world is going and all the uncertainty I'd like to do my best to protect our critical resources as a first priority and grow the system as funds permit. To me critical loads would be the deep freezers and fridge and well pump with a few led lights. I'd like to build it with enough overhead that we can charge phones, laptop ..make a pot of coffee at least when the sun is assisting. I learned my lesson when we went without power for over a week last year. As I stated ...I'm very concerned with how chaotic things are and broken supply chains etc. My first question into this journey would be reliability. For you guys that have years of experience with solar and maybe you rural / off grid guys what is considered extremely reliable in terms / context of all in one systems or designing a system that has the parts separate? If you was to pick a system just for running critical loads which way would you lean? I've been looking at the growatt / eg4 / mpp etc and they look to make things super easy..but I'm concerned as I've also seen youtube videos where people have the mother board or other part going out and having to send it in and wait. I know all things can fail but are the systems where you separate all those things out more reliable? I also want a system / brand that has a very good reputation with being reliable. Victron / outback / schneider? I don't plan on being off grid, at least on purpose..lol, so most likely this would be a backup to the grid and help reduce grid consumption like running in "SBU" mode. So, to sum things up ...if you guys were building a system today with about a 4/5K budget for just running critical loads what would you pick? Not sure if it matters at this point until I figure out a path forward regarding capacity etc... but I'll throw it out there. We'd most likely be powering 4 deep freezers and two standard fridges along with a well pump.

Best to get a Max load in watts and also a killawatt requirement. That needs to be matched against your area. Likely, sunny Arizona where I'm at produces better than yours.

Without knowing any of those, it's difficult, but I am going to guess 20 kwh a day with a 4 kw inverter. For 24 hour battery backup with that requirement, I think you could be spending $30k on this requirement. This will consist of a 6-10 kw array. The gotchas are not the panels and inverter, but all the hardware, wiring, and tooling.

Very important to have some idea of the power requirement you build to. Won't hit it perfectly, but the better the max daily power requirement, which is usually summer, the less freezers you'll have to unplug to get it to work.

My guess is for a $4k to $5k budget, I could build something to run a single fridge and perhaps the pump 24/7.

Based on the stated budget numbers I would think an All-in-One system makes the most sense as the starting point to get a fully functional critical loads system up and running. Then later perhaps pick up a separate charge controller and a back up Inverter like an AIMS or something. This way if the AIO inverter/charger fails you can send it out for repair and still charge batteries and run your critical loads.
If your initial budget was a bit higher then something like a Schneider system where the charge controllers are separate items would make sense but Schneider, Outback Etc are going to cost more up front.

chrisski said:

Best to get a Max load in watts and also a killawatt requirement. That needs to be matched against your area. Likely, sunny Arizona where I'm at produces better than yours.

Without knowing any of those, it's difficult, but I am going to guess 20 kwh a day with a 4 kw inverter. For 24 hour battery backup with that requirement, I think you could be spending $30k on this requirement. This will consist of a 6-10 kw array. The gotchas are not the panels and inverter, but all the hardware, wiring, and tooling.

Very important to have some idea of the power requirement you build to. Won't hit it perfectly, but the better the max daily power requirement, which is usually summer, the less freezers you'll have to unplug to get it to work.

My guess is for a $4k to $5k budget, I could build something to run a single fridge and perhaps the pump 24/7.

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I'm in Texas / Oklahoma border area...not as good as Arizona but we get lots of sun. I have a killawatt..somewhere and need to find that darn thing. But, my research seems to show that deep freezers, at least chest style, do not consume much power. 40-200 watts seem average for chest freezers and that's with the compressor on. According to the internet. I believe the GE fridge I just sold, which was bought in 2020, only used like 300/400 watts or so. The thing with chest freezers is that on a sunny day those things can be shut off at night if needed and they will stay frozen just fine. The fridge would need to stay on ideally. I was looking at 4-6K inverters. But like I was saying my first priority was to do due dilligance on reliability of the various units and manufactures.

BentleyJ said:

Based on the stated budget numbers I would think an All-in-One system makes the most sense as the starting point to get a fully functional critical loads system up and running. Then later perhaps pick up a separate charge controller and a back up Inverter like an AIMS or something. This way if the AIO inverter/charger fails you can send it out for repair and still charge batteries and run your critical loads.
If your initial budget was a bit higher then something like a Schneider system where the charge controllers are separate items would make sense but Schneider, Outback Etc are going to cost more up front.

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How much more upfront you thinking here? If I did go with a all in one is there one or two that's more suited for rural living and has a good reputation? I figured I'd need to get one that has a transformer, I believe they are called low frequency inverters, to start the well pump..or at least without a soft start. Victron and Schneider both seem to have a all in one but the input for solar voltage is low compared to the growatt and mpp.

I'm using a Schneider Conext XW+ 6848. It is a low frequency inverter and has a large toroidal transformer. Starts and runs a 4 ton AC compressor with no problem, I did install a HyperEngineering Soft Starter. Not sure which model Schneider you are referring to but I believe most of them have a built in charger but do not have built in MPPT solar charge controllers, those are usually sold separately. For redundancy that's a plus but it costs more. I don't have any experience with any of the AIO value brands. Dave Poz recently posted a positive YT video regarding his experience with Growatt after a year of usage.

BentleyJ said:

I'm using a Schneider Conext XW+ 6848. It is a low frequency inverter and has a large toroidal transformer. Starts and runs a 4 ton AC compressor with no problem, I did install a HyperEngineering Soft Starter. Not sure which model Schneider you are referring to but I believe most of them have a built in charger but do not have built in MPPT solar charge controllers, those are usually sold separately. For redundancy that's a plus but it costs more. I don't have any experience with any of the AIO value brands. Dave Poz recently posted a positive YT video regarding his experience with Growatt after a year of usage.

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this one: https://signaturesolar.com/schneider-4k-stackable-off-grid-inverter-conext-sw4048/

Ok, I see what you're saying now..it has a built in charger to charge when connected via AC to the grid but would need a solar charger to use the panels. A few questions. Does your conext have the ability to use solar as it's coming in or can it only draw from the battery? I like the SBU mode some of these inverters have so it can provide power straight from the panel as it's coming in. Second, did you have to get any other products from them besides the charge controller? I see they have control panels, monitoring panels etc all as add-ons I guess.

BentleyJ said:

I'm using a Schneider Conext XW+ 6848. It is a low frequency inverter and has a large toroidal transformer. Starts and runs a 4 ton AC compressor with no problem, I did install a HyperEngineering Soft Starter. Not sure which model Schneider you are referring to but I believe most of them have a built in charger but do not have built in MPPT solar charge controllers, those are usually sold separately. For redundancy that's a plus but it costs more. I don't have any experience with any of the AIO value brands. Dave Poz recently posted a positive YT video regarding his experience with Growatt after a year of usage.

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Yes, I saw that video but he's also using the European model that only does 240V then uses what I believe is called a auto transformer that provides a neutral to split the phase for 120V. I'm not sure I like that idea, I don't think that would pass inspection if I ever wanted to go that route for home insurance purposes. Additionally, I'm concerned if that auto transformer ever shorted out or lost connection somehow it wold not end well.

realpinochet said:

this one: https://signaturesolar.com/schneider-4k-stackable-off-grid-inverter-conext-sw4048/

Ok, I see what you're saying now..it has a built in charger to charge when connected via AC to the grid but would need a solar charger to use the panels. A few questions. Does your conext have the ability to use solar as it's coming in or can it only draw from the battery? I like the SBU mode some of these inverters have so it can provide power straight from the panel as it's coming in. Second, did you have to get any other products from them besides the charge controller? I see they have control panels, monitoring panels etc all as add-ons I guess.

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I'm using the 6848 in an AC Coupled architecture. I do not have any charge controllers. To answer your question, no the Conext will not be able to use solar directly without the charge controllers, this is called DC Coupled.

BentleyJ said:

I'm using the 6848 in an AC Coupled architecture. I do not have any charge controllers. To answer your question, no the Conext will not be able to use solar directly without the charge controllers, this is called DC Coupled.

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No, I was saying a Conext with a charge controller can use solar power as it comes in instead of storing it and pulling from the battery? I think the mpp and growatt do this. I think it's sbu mode?

If your going to power a well pump, might as well go with the right equipment and go the low frequency inverter path. I’ve been doing the same analysis for about 6-8 months and everything leads me back to the XW Pro 6848 or the Outback 8048A. Well pumps, like an air conditioner require massive surge power to start. My well is a 3/4hp pump and runs at 1300 watts but needs over 9000 watts to start for a few seconds. This is where the Schneider and Outback works best. Forget the Growatt, MPP, EG4, etc…won’t work. They only have a few millisecond of surge power and not enough. If you did stack enough to power the surge, can’t imagine they would last long. Also, no grounding issues/guessing with the Schneider or Outback.

If you want to be prepared for failure, get a solid inverter (I am a fan of the XW-Pro 6848), and keep a spare ~2kW inverter in its box that can be pulled out and hooked up if you have a problem. Stacked inverter systems do not increase reliability, and if you are remote/rural, time-to-repair matters a lot.

If you want to save money, go for the DIY LFP batteries, but buy a reliable BMS.

ChrisG said:

If your going to power a well pump, might as well go with the right equipment and go the low frequency inverter path. I’ve been doing the same analysis for about 6-8 months and everything leads me back to the XW Pro 6848 or the Outback 8048A. Well pumps, like an air conditioner require massive surge power to start. My well is a 3/4hp pump and runs at 1300 watts but needs over 9000 watts to start for a few seconds. This is where the Schneider and Outback works best. Forget the Growatt, MPP, EG4, etc…won’t work. They only have a few millisecond of surge power and not enough. If you did stack enough to power the surge, can’t imagine they would last long. Also, no grounding issues/guessing with the Schneider or Outback.

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I'm thinking I'm leaning towards the XW pro; I'll have to look for a charge controller that would help me simply the wiring. That's one thing I liked about the mpp and growatt...they have a large VOC for the mppt controller which from what I'm reading helps eliminate having to combine a bunch of strings and also smaller wiring for the runs. Is that correct? Have you found a controller that will work with the XW Pro that has a high VOC? What kind / brand of batteries are you looking at for the XW? I was looking at the eg4 lithium ones.

realpinochet said:

I'm thinking I'm leaning towards the XW pro; I'll have to look for a charge controller that would help me simply the wiring. That's one thing I liked about the mpp and growatt...they have a large VOC for the mppt controller which from what I'm reading helps eliminate having to combine a bunch of strings and also smaller wiring for the runs. Is that correct? Have you found a controller that will work with the XW Pro that has a high VOC? What kind / brand of batteries are you looking at for the XW? I was looking at the eg4 lithium ones.

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The MPPT-80-600 is a 600V charge controller. The smaller 60-150 puts you into a maximum of two panels in series.

If money is no object, the eFlex batteries fully integrate ("closed-loop control") with Schneider. The EG4 batteries work, but you need at least three, and the more expensive LL version seems to be more reliable with the XW-Pro, but SOK and the other server rack batteries all do the job. The three battery issue is true for all brands, you need at least 48V/300Ah/300A for it to work reliably.

Shimmy said:

The MPPT-80-600 is a 600V charge controller. The smaller 60-150 puts you into a maximum of two panels in series.

If money is no object, the eFlex batteries fully integrate ("closed-loop control") with Schneider. The EG4 batteries work, but you need at least three, and the more expensive LL version seems to be more reliable with the XW-Pro, but SOK and the other server rack batteries all do the job. The three battery issue is true for all brands, you need at least 48V/300Ah/300A for it to work reliably.

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Are these the batteries you mention?


If so..what is so special about these things they want your first born?

Second, on the schneider parts list; other than the inverter and mppt charger is the control panel and any other stuff from them specifically needed for a functioning system. I was hoping you could configure it from the built in lcd panel. I see they have a control panel and batter monitor etc.

realpinochet said:

If so..what is so special about these things they want your first born?

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They have been UL listed for longer, and seem to be a bit stronger on quality. For me specifically, I consider them because there is a local supplier to deal with warranty issues rather than having to ship hazardous goods for a warranty claim.

realpinochet said:

Second, on the schneider parts list; other than the inverter and mppt charger is the control panel and any other stuff from them specifically needed for a functioning system. I was hoping you could configure it from the built in lcd panel. I see they have a control panel and batter monitor etc.

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As I understand it you need/want a gateway-- other people should be able to give you a better recommendation there; it makes it viewable over your network. The PDP (or mini-PDP) simplifies the installation and keeps things looking clean by integrating all the circuit breakers. The battery monitor is not required, but there is mixed opinion if it is recommended. The control panel is not required. If you are mounting panels on the roof of your house you need the rapid shutdown (MPPT-RSD) and remote switch for code compliance.

Shimmy said:

They have been UL listed for longer, and seem to be a bit stronger on quality. For me specifically, I consider them because there is a local supplier to deal with warranty issues rather than having to ship hazardous goods for a warranty claim.

As I understand it you need/want a gateway-- other people should be able to give you a better recommendation there; it makes it viewable over your network. The PDP (or mini-PDP) simplifies the installation and keeps things looking clean by integrating all the circuit breakers. The battery monitor is not required, but there is mixed opinion if it is recommended. The control panel is not required. If you are mounting panels on the roof of your house you need the rapid shutdown (MPPT-RSD) and remote switch for code compliance.

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On those batteries ..just to make sure I'm not misinterpreting. A 5.4kWh eflex vs a eg4 5.4kWh. The eg4 is $1500 and the eflex is $3500..more than double for the same kWh? If this is true I was just wondering what made them worth it. I never mount stuff on my roof...even my sat dish is mounted on a pole. I'd most likely build out a ground mount system, I'm debating having a shed built to house the batteries and inverters instead of having it in my house. It seems like a lot of people do this for safety or perhaps insurance reasons I guess. Thanks for your replies.

realpinochet said:

On those batteries ..just to make sure I'm not misinterpreting. A 5.4kWh eflex vs a eg4 5.4kWh. The eg4 is $1500 and the eflex is $3500..more than double for the same kWh? If this is true I was just wondering what made them worth it. I never mount stuff on my roof...even my sat dish is mounted on a pole. I'd most likely build out a ground mount system, I'm debating having a shed built to house the batteries and inverters instead of having it in my house. It seems like a lot of people do this for safety or perhaps insurance reasons I guess. Thanks for your replies.

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Good plan on the shed/ground mount. The EG4 is UL listed now, so it should be fine from a home insurance standpoint. The eFlex is still cheaper than the SimpliPhi; it is a premium for US manufacturing I guess.

Shimmy said:

They have been UL listed for longer, and seem to be a bit stronger on quality. For me specifically, I consider them because there is a local supplier to deal with warranty issues rather than having to ship hazardous goods for a warranty claim.

As I understand it you need/want a gateway-- other people should be able to give you a better recommendation there; it makes it viewable over your network. The PDP (or mini-PDP) simplifies the installation and keeps things looking clean by integrating all the circuit breakers. The battery monitor is not required, but there is mixed opinion if it is recommended. The control panel is not required. If you are mounting panels on the roof of your house you need the rapid shutdown (MPPT-RSD) and remote switch for code compliance.

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In my cart at NAWS is XW Pro, mini PDP, battery monitor, insight home, 100-600 Charge controller.

ChrisG said:

In my cart at NAWS is XW Pro, mini PDP, battery monitor, insight home, 100-600 Charge controller.

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I assume more than one inverter can share most of these items? The pdp though...can you have multiple inverters on one pdp? Those things are 700 each. I wanted to eventually have two maybe three inverters and two mppt chargers.

realpinochet said:

I assume more than one inverter can share most of these items? The pdp though...can you have multiple inverters on one pdp? Those things are 700 each. I wanted to eventually have two maybe three inverters and two mppt chargers.

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You need the full size PDP and the pass through for the other inverters. In would talk to where you’re buying it from to get the right details.

ChrisG said:

You need the full size PDP and the pass through for the other inverters. In would talk to where you’re buying it from to get the right details.

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Thanks for all the info you provided, it's much appreciated sir.

Well pump is usually a difficult load, while fridge and freezer much easier to start.
Have a water tank, and a generator as backup for the well pump if necessary.
For redundancy, consider an extra set of smaller equipment able to power refrigeration.
You can also go for an inverter able to power everything. But if that goes down, the generator and small inverter will take care of critical loads.

I go for modular component system. Nothing weighs over 150 lbs, and if one unit goes down I can reconfigure around the remaining ones. Some day I'll set up 12VDC backup for telecom in addition.

Hedges said:

Well pump is usually a difficult load, while fridge and freezer much easier to start.
Have a water tank, and a generator as backup for the well pump if necessary.
For redundancy, consider an extra set of smaller equipment able to power refrigeration.
You can also go for an inverter able to power everything. But if that goes down, the generator and small inverter will take care of critical loads.

I go for modular component system. Nothing weighs over 150 lbs, and if one unit goes down I can reconfigure around the remaining ones. Some day I'll set up 12VDC backup for telecom in addition.

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After starting this thread I've been debating some things. I'm convinced that my assumption about modular components was correct, also convinced about using higher tier 1 products for the main system. But, to get things going for powering just the fridges, deep freezers and charge some phones and ham radios I'm looking for a simple drop in solution. I'm finding they are all china products even the midnight solar ones. The only AIO unit I'm not sure about yet is the victron...is it also china made? I'd prefer a 6k AIO but the only ones I can find seem to be all china. I figured if I made sure the PV VOC and panel layout was comptabable with my future upgrades I could just switch things over and then keep the AIO as a backup or put it on a dolly and make it portable. Do we have any compiled data on the various AIO brands as for reliability and customer service?

https://www.solar-electric.com/victron-multiplus-ii-inverter-charger-48-3000-35-50-120vac.html

Another all in one to consider if you don’t want to power surge loads is an Outback Skybox. It has all the certifications, runs off of 48v and stackable for more power, and is not that expensive. My cabin that has the well pump will most likely have a XW Pro and the first system I’m going to install. My primary home which has no surge devices I’m considering the skybox.