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Simple AC-coupled solar production monitor /meter to control dump load / relay

fafrd

Solar Wizard
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
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I’m not sure my question is ‘advanced’ enough for this Forum but here goes:

I’m looking for a simple way to monitor my AC-coupled solar power production in kW to drive a dump load when it gets close to my 3.5kW export limit.

This is east to do with a current-controlled switch but I’m getting enough variation in grid voltage to I’d really like to find a (hopefully east / straightforward) way to drive a control signal output from a user-defined / controlled measure of power (current x voltage).

There’s a ton of energy meters out there that will display W of generation, but I have not been able to find any with a programmable dry contact output.

There a also a bunch of relatively expensive and complicated ‘smart home’ solutions that will allow you to have a WiFi-enabled solar energy meter communicate with an app that can be configured to control smart switches but that’s just a whole lot of complexity / technology / potential code-writing that I’d rather avoid (primarily because of all of the additional potential points of failure).

So if anyone here has a simple ideas for how I can detect when my AC-coupled power output gets past 3.4kW to drive an output signal I plan to use to drive a simple dump load, I’m all ears…
 
https://a.co/d/fNA4Z2g should do the trick for you. Just slap it on the wire you're trying to measure, it will do up to 30A and drive a second relay with the switch that will control your dump load.
 
https://a.co/d/fNA4Z2g should do the trick for you. Just slap it on the wire you're trying to measure, it will do up to 30A and drive a second relay with the switch that will control your dump load.
Thanks, but that’s exactly the current sending switch I was referring to in the lead post.

The problem with a current switch is that grid voltage can vary between a low of 211Vac to a high of 264Vac (and exported power will vary at any specific current with it).

I’m not too worried about low grid voltage but I need a sensor that knows 10A @ 240VAC is below a 2.45kW average while 10A @ 250VAC is not…
 
My bad, I didn't read your post carefully enough.

How about this one? https://m.aliexpress.com/item/3256801535687870.html?html=static&gatewayAdapt=4itemAdapt
Looks like it might be perfect in terms of a programmable power threshold that activates a relay output, but thus spec has me concerned:

Measure voltage range: AC0-220V

I need to have power measured up to a line voltage of 264VAC, so I’m not sure if this will work…

But in any case, at least I know that the class of device I was looking for exists :).
 
This at least seems like it will allow me to get a relay output when AC voltage increases beyond a programmable threshold: https://www.amazon.com/Monitoring-S...t=&hvlocphy=9032079&hvtargid=pla-786946572609
That one was 3-phase and probably I’ll-suited to my need, but this single-phase relay should do the trick: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B085...OZ&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9kZXRhaWw

‘Overvoltage protection value range: 221V-300V-OFF adjustable (default 280V)

Overvoltage recovery voltage mediation range: 220V-299V (default value 250V)

Overvoltage protection action time: 0.1s - 10s (default 0.1 seconds)’

So for $20, I can program one of these to open for at least 10 seconds whenever grid voltage exceeds 255V and then automatically close after grid voltage has decreased to 251V or less.

This will now allow me to use a simple programmable current switch to activate a dump load whenever AC-coupled solar power current exceeds a programmable threshold.

‘Excess’ solar power generation can be cut out whenever grid voltage exceeds 255VAC or whenever solar current exceeds ‘E’ Amps.

Since the excess power being generated must be at no more than 255VAC, the maximum amount of Excess solar power I can ever get will be no more than 255 x E Watts…

I’ve never seen my grid voltage reach 251VAC let alone 255VAC but since my Microinverters are rated to produce power all the way up to a maximum of 264VAC, this seams like cheap insurance to guarantee that any ‘Excess’ solar power I generate only happens when my grid is within the range I typically see…

If I just used 264V to determine the current threshold to activate dump load instead of 255V, I’d have to set my current switch threshold at E / 264 rather than E / 255 meaning 3.4% lower.

3.4% may not seem like much but means that rather dumping energy on the rare / perfect days than my systems achieves close to maximum possible output (on my particular roof), I’ll likely be dumping any Excess generation for -3-4 hours all summer long.

At the Excess generation rate of 0.6kW I’m aiming for, that amounts to 1.8 to 2.4 kWh per day which over 6-8 months a year can be as much as 330 to 580kWh per year.

Even if I’m only getting that excess generation compensated a t wholesale rates if $0.05, this overvoltsge protection relay will pay for itself in 8 to 15 months and the entire rig with power-resistor-based dump-load, relays, and the programmable current switch will pay for itself in 2-4 years.
 
Awesome! That should work for you.
The other way I’m thinking about going after this is to see if I can talk Emporium into adding more configurable controls for their smart switches in their energy monitor.

They already measure solar power and import / export power, so it’s just a question of them allowing a smart switch to be activated when either export power and / solar power exceed a user-settable fir them to provide a very capable dump-load controller…
 
The other way I’m thinking about going after this is to see if I can talk Emporium into adding more configurable controls for their smart switches in their energy monitor.

They already measure solar power and import / export power, so it’s just a question of them allowing a smart switch to be activated when either export power and / solar power exceed a user-settable fir them to provide a very capable dump-load controller…
Should be an easy add but based on my chats and emails with them they just aren't that agile to make the changes. They're good with support but any new feature you ask for is a dead end.

They don't even have bi-directional metering on the 2.5mm inputs even though they confirmed that it's not a hardware limitation.

Since I can't export any solar at the moment, no PTO yet, I can't use their EV charger to charge my car on excess solar because they can't measure/recognize excess solar on an internal measurement. So I'm using peak shaving and use that to charge my EV with excess solar and pay for the 1kW draw I have on the grid.

You can definitely reach out to them but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Should be an easy add but based on my chats and emails with them they just aren't that agile to make the changes. They're good with support but any new feature you ask for is a dead end.

They don't even have bi-directional metering on the 2.5mm inputs even though they confirmed that it's not a hardware limitation.

Since I can't export any solar at the moment, no PTO yet, I can't use their EV charger to charge my car on excess solar because they can't measure/recognize excess solar on an internal measurement. So I'm using peak shaving and use that to charge my EV with excess solar and pay for the 1kW draw I have on the grid.

You can definitely reach out to them but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Wow, you far further into things than I am.

They told me my request was interesting, gave me a ticket number and promised to pass my request on to engineering.

From what you’ve indicated that’ll end up being a dead end.

I don’t have an EV yet but plan to get one next year or 2024 (waiting for the Volkswagen ID.3 to support V2H and bidirectional charging, hopefully followed by others).

I really like the way Emporia has architected their bidirectional charger to support solar absorption and load offsetting but am concerned their system is a black box.

If an outfit like OpenEV introduces bidirectional charging capability, I’d prefer that but I don’t see anyway they could offer anything more than a high voltage DC output feeding a 3rd-party hybrid inverter.

Getting the solar power into the EV without exporting should be easier and easier but getting than stored energy back out to offset loads could remain a hairball for some time.

Where are you based and do you plan to get a PTO?
 
Emporia has solar charging support on their Level 2 AC charger, the one I have and use. As I said it works OK even without grid export but it could work a bit better. Since I have a Sol-Ark 15K I also had to put together a custom CT setup so I could measure my Solar production but once I got it figured out it works really well. Once I start grid charging my batteries I'll be in a bit of trouble because there will be no way to directly measure that (no 2-way measure on the 50A CTs) but I should be able to figure out that data via Excel after exporting the data.

I'm in north Texas in ERCOT/Oncor land. I'm still waiting on my battery and the Tigo communication bridge to enable rapid shutdown and remote monitoring on the Tigo optimizers before I can pass city inspection and I reckon it's a few more weeks after that before I get PTO. So far I'm super pleased with my system and how it's shaping up from an energy perspective, I originally guessed ROI to be about 12 years but with the TOU free nights plan I should be able to recover it much sooner.
 
Emporia has solar charging support on their Level 2 AC charger, the one I have and use. As I said it works OK even without grid export but it could work a bit better. Since I have a Sol-Ark 15K I also had to put together a custom CT setup so I could measure my Solar production but once I got it figured out it works really well. Once I start grid charging my batteries I'll be in a bit of trouble because there will be no way to directly measure that (no 2-way measure on the 50A CTs) but I should be able to figure out that data via Excel after exporting the data.

I'm in north Texas in ERCOT/Oncor land. I'm still waiting on my battery and the Tigo communication bridge to enable rapid shutdown and remote monitoring on the Tigo optimizers before I can pass city inspection and I reckon it's a few more weeks after that before I get PTO. So far I'm super pleased with my system and how it's shaping up from an energy perspective, I originally guessed ROI to be about 12 years but with the TOU free nights plan I should be able to recover it much sooner.
Sounds like a really nice setup.

I’ll tell you how I ‘tricked my GTIL inverters CT sensors into netting out my solar production in case it might help you with whatever CT-based issue you might be facing with your Solark.

Each GTIL has a single CT sensor which it uses to generate power from battery until import is zero (there is one of these on each 120VAC leg, so no backup power capability but true split-phase 240VAC consumption offset within the power limits of the inverters).

I have a 4kW grid-tied system and that means that during daylight hours, the GTILs would produce no power because I’m exporting, not importing.

On clear days, I get enough DC-coupled power coming in that I want theGTILs to begin offsetting loads even though there is no import.

The currents in CT sensors add, so what I did was purchase 2 more of the proper specification and spliced each sensor cable to be connected to 2 CT sensors in parallel.

With that dual CT cable, I could connect in CT sensor to the main wire and the second to the solar input wire (attached the same leg) so that the import current being ‘seen’ by each GTIL corresponds to ‘Mains import current + solar input current’. When there is no import current and the mains current is negative (exporting) the solar input gets added to that so the GTIL ‘sees’ solar generation current - export current = loads currevt.

It works like a charm. The only thing to be careful about is shielding since those CT sensor cables are very well shielded to prevent EMI noise from distorting the measurements and if you make a splice, you want to do your best to shield it equally well.

The Solark is a really nice piece of kit but outside my price range (at least for now).

California is changing the rules on us legacy NEM customers (so much for 20 years!) and the writing is on the wall. It’s only a question of when and not if you will be given essentially no credit for export and charged a monthly tax for any export at all, so I’m trying to prepare in advance for a ‘zero export’ future.

Rather that investing ~$10-20,000 in a house battery, storing as much solar production as you can fit into an EV during the day and using that stored energy to offset loads overnight until the sun is shining again looks like the better choice.

So I’m looking for cheap, effective and easy ways to avoid all export for when the time comes.

With AC-coupled solar, the Emporia will export until export power reaches the minimum of 1.44kW, so in any case it seems like there will be a role to play for a house battery and AC charger.

Emporia is introducing a house battery as well, which is surprisingly reasonably-priced, but the inverter you need to use it costs at least as much as a Solark, if not more.

And in addition Emporua is a ‘black box’ so the only way you can get it to do things it was not designed to do is to fool its sensor inputs.

So it’s a pleasure to meet you virtually and I hope we can keep this dialog going - seems like we share interests in many of the same things…
 
So this is how I solved my problem of measuring solar:

Only difference is that I bought a small electrical box, four 3.5mm jacks and two 2.5mm pigtails so the setup is clean and non-destructive to the original CTs. I bought four extra 200A CTs since with the Sol-Ark15K the solar and the grid side current can be as much as 200A since it has the grid pass-through rather than critical load. Emporia told me that the reading from the 200A CTs is 25% of the 50A CTs so I just had to use a 4x multiplier with them to get the correct reading.

With this setup I can measure my solar production being solar production = load CT - grid CT. It is essentially the same setup as yours if I understand correctly, it does the subtraction in analog mode by placing the two CTs in parallel in opposite directions.

There are three issues with this measurement:
1) Emporia has one single source of voltage measurement. But in my particular setup my grid voltage and my load voltage can and do differ slightly. The Vue I have this measurement is getting its reference voltage from the load side. During solar production Vload > Vgrid so my Pgrid measurement will be higher than it really is by (1-Vgrid/Vload). Once I can put power on the grid the opposite will be true, Vload < Vgrid and my Pgrid measurement will be lower than it really is.

2) The problem is that Emporia's 2.5mm readings are not bi-directional. They can either read production values (if they're set as solar) or consumption values (if they're set as regular breakers) but once they're set they just read either positive or negative, no matter what. I think this was done to fix user error in placing the CTs incorrectly. This works for most of their users, they just take the absolute value of the reading. If they were to suddenly change the way these measured and took direction into account there would/could be a lot of users with incorrectly oriented CTs who would start reading production for their consumers, it would be a true support nightmare for them. They kind of painted themselves into a corner with this decision.

3) The problem is that between my grid measurement and my load measurement I have the inverter and the batteries, and there is no way to measure those out independently.

In a normal state where the battery is not used, the only thing I can't account for is the power consumption of the Sol-Ark. This value is simply lost as the only reference would be slightly less solar getting pushed to my load. I can live with this.

When by battery is charging from solar, I would see a reduced solar production as some of the PV would sink into the battery. Again, no big deal.

When battery is discharging along with my solar onto my load, I'd see higher PV values than actual production, this is still fine, the solar energy I generated gets released at a later time and with some loss, still cool.

The issue starts to become a problem when you start charging your battery from the grid. Since I get free power between 9p-7a I fully plan to use grid power to charge my battery. In this scenario, my Pgrid > Pload. If the solar production = Pload - Pgrid would be what shows up in Emporia, it would capture it as my solar drawing power, which would be fine. But the equation that is being used is "solar production = abs(Pload - Pgird)" which will show that I'm actually generating solar, which is bad. The only way I can ascertain that the solar is actually a draw is by looking at my main panel main CTs and see if they're greater than the grid side CT readings. If they are less than Pgrid then I know that whatever the Solar reading is, it's a negative value and is energy from the grid going into my battery.

So I do have a way to figure out what is what, but not without some Excel gymnastics. Also, my Solar generation values in Emporia will be tainted by battery charges/discharges and grid charging of the batteries. As I said I have Solar Assistant so I can correlate the data and correct for all this, it would just be nice to have that ability in Emporia directly, which we do not.

With AC-coupled solar, the Emporia will export until export power reaches the minimum of 1.44kW, so in any case it seems like there will be a role to play for a house battery and AC charger.

What do you mean by this? Are you telling me Emporia will only do solar offset if I have solar export in excess of 1.44kW? I guess I'm OK with that, I rather it exported some than turn on my space heater which ends up importing because now I'm over drawing the system. I think that is a safety margin they placed that no matter what, once you turn on the solar controlled appliance connected to a plug you still remain net positive. A user adjustable setting or a 15 minute peak consumption of the plug from the last month as the threshold would be a better way to manage it but I digress.
 
So this is how I solved my problem of measuring solar:

Only difference is that I bought a small electrical box, four 3.5mm jacks and two 2.5mm pigtails so the setup is clean and non-destructive to the original CTs. I bought four extra 200A CTs since with the Sol-Ark15K the solar and the grid side current can be as much as 200A since it has the grid pass-through rather than critical load. Emporia told me that the reading from the 200A CTs is 25% of the 50A CTs so I just had to use a 4x multiplier with them to get the correct reading.

With this setup I can measure my solar production being solar production = load CT - grid CT. It is essentially the same setup as yours if I understand correctly, it does the subtraction in analog mode by placing the two CTs in parallel in opposite directions.

There are three issues with this measurement:
1) Emporia has one single source of voltage measurement. But in my particular setup my grid voltage and my load voltage can and do differ slightly. The Vue I have this measurement is getting its reference voltage from the load side. During solar production Vload > Vgrid so my Pgrid measurement will be higher than it really is by (1-Vgrid/Vload). Once I can put power on the grid the opposite will be true, Vload < Vgrid and my Pgrid measurement will be lower than it really is.

2) The problem is that Emporia's 2.5mm readings are not bi-directional. They can either read production values (if they're set as solar) or consumption values (if they're set as regular breakers) but once they're set they just read either positive or negative, no matter what. I think this was done to fix user error in placing the CTs incorrectly. This works for most of their users, they just take the absolute value of the reading. If they were to suddenly change the way these measured and took direction into account there would/could be a lot of users with incorrectly oriented CTs who would start reading production for their consumers, it would be a true support nightmare for them. They kind of painted themselves into a corner with this decision.

3) The problem is that between my grid measurement and my load measurement I have the inverter and the batteries, and there is no way to measure those out independently.

In a normal state where the battery is not used, the only thing I can't account for is the power consumption of the Sol-Ark. This value is simply lost as the only reference would be slightly less solar getting pushed to my load. I can live with this.

When by battery is charging from solar, I would see a reduced solar production as some of the PV would sink into the battery. Again, no big deal.

When battery is discharging along with my solar onto my load, I'd see higher PV values than actual production, this is still fine, the solar energy I generated gets released at a later time and with some loss, still cool.

The issue starts to become a problem when you start charging your battery from the grid. Since I get free power between 9p-7a I fully plan to use grid power to charge my battery. In this scenario, my Pgrid > Pload. If the solar production = Pload - Pgrid would be what shows up in Emporia, it would capture it as my solar drawing power, which would be fine. But the equation that is being used is "solar production = abs(Pload - Pgird)" which will show that I'm actually generating solar, which is bad. The only way I can ascertain that the solar is actually a draw is by looking at my main panel main CTs and see if they're greater than the grid side CT readings. If they are less than Pgrid then I know that whatever the Solar reading is, it's a negative value and is energy from the grid going into my battery.

So I do have a way to figure out what is what, but not without some Excel gymnastics. Also, my Solar generation values in Emporia will be tainted by battery charges/discharges and grid charging of the batteries. As I said I have Solar Assistant so I can correlate the data and correct for all this, it would just be nice to have that ability in Emporia directly, which we do not.
You are much further along into this then me (which is why I appreciate the exchange).

On the CT’s we are doing exactly the same thing. Two wires in opposing directions through one CT or two parallel CTs clamped in opposing orientation around those same two wires achieve exactly the same thing.

And I really like the idea about making an adapter box with jacks - in my case the CR sensor had a custom connector so splicing right into the cable seemed easier but if I’m ever doing anything to expand a ‘standard’ CT sensor with jacks, I’ll remember this nifty little trick.

If you’ve measured delta voltage between solar input to panel and mains output to grid, how big of a delta have you seen? I would have thought voltage drop in the main panel itself was small and that as long as the Emporia was accurately measuring mains oanel voltage, everything would have been reasonably accurate.

And I see now what you mean about the smaller CT sensors being one-way. Bone-headed decision with no easy workaround. They should have an ‘advanced mode’ where sensors are allowed to measure +/- and not only absolute value. Hidden deeply enough in an advanced users menu they should be able t avoid any issue with legacy customers.

You are more focused on monitoring than I am. I have one monitor on my AC-coupled Microinverters and another on my DC-coupled array, so I don’t need the Emporia to tell me anything about my solar.

I’m primarily interested in the Empiria to control the bidirectional charger. A long as it can read energy being exported to grid, it can decide when to start charging the EV and can absorb excess energy until the EV is full. At night, as long as it is sending total consumption from grid, it can offset that using EV stored energy.

That will be my ‘big system’ which will only function with the EV at home.

I plan to have a smaller system based n a house battery and hybrid or GTIL inverters that has first priority for load offset. As long as any load offset being driven by the bidirectional charger is not ‘seen’ by the hybrid/GTIL CT sensors, it will offset load to the maximum of its capacity, Emporia will aee less net consumption and will back off bidirectional charger output accordingly. When loads exceeding hybrid/GTIL maximum output levels kick off (ie: electric oven) or house battery is depleted, Emporia will direct bidirectional charger to close the gap.

I’m not worried about making that ‘nested system’ work on the offset side (overnight), but I’m still looking for a way to make it behave as I’d like on the input side (during the day while solar generation is occurring).

I’ll go more into that in a separate post.
 
What do you mean by this? Are you telling me Emporia will only do solar offset if I have solar export in excess of 1.44kW?
No, I was referring to solar absorption, not offset. Offset will track very closely and the residual consumption is minor (they told me all the numbers but I forget where I noted them - I believe it was something like every 2 seconds for adjustment and below */-30W in terms of how closely it tracks consumption. This is for the new bidirectional charger powered off if the EV battery.

The 1.44kW is the minimum charging power (which should be the same for your smart charger if you are running off of 240VAC).

The EV charging standard has a minimum of 6A. 6A x 240VAC = 1.44kW.

So the Emporia will monitor export but will not start charging the EV until export power is at least 1.44kW (and I’d ideally like to know there is a user-settable threshold power level to avoid the sorts of thrashing you were alluding to).

So this means that in the morning as AC-coupled solar power generation begins to rise, solar power will reach load level and net consumption will turn to net export (or if you have been maintaining zero consumption by offsetting with EV energy, you will transition from zero export to power being exported.m).

That exported power will continue to increase until it reaches the level needed to start EV charging, at which point you’ll be back to zero export late in the afternoon when export power drops below 1.44kW and you’ll again be exporting down the ‘tail’ until export drops to 0W and you remain at zero consumption through to the next sunrise.
I guess I'm OK with that, I rather it exported some than turn on my space heater which ends up importing because now I'm over drawing the system. I think that is a safety margin they placed that no matter what, once you turn on the solar controlled appliance connected to a plug you still remain net positive. A user adjustable setting or a 15 minute peak consumption of the plug from the last month as the threshold would be a better way to manage it but I digress.
At the moment, I have an export agreement in place and so even if I’m only getting pennies-per-kWh I agree with you, better to export the tail than to dump (as well as the head).

But the way things are headed in California, sometime in the future I will face a choice: either pay a ‘solar tax’ of close to $400 per year today and likely over $500 tomorrow for the ‘right’ to export or become a regular old electrical customer that pays for consumption but never exports any energy, ever.

So on that future, exporting the head and the tail will be quite costly and if I can a True Zero Export solution that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg, I will do so.

On the tail, my Microinverters support zero export, so it will be easy for me to taper-back solar production after it has dropped below the 1.44kW minimum to keep charging the EV or after the EV is fully-charged.

But the head is problematic, if I start off in the morning with my Microinverters in Zero Export mode, there will never be any exported power to get the Empora to start charging.

What you really want for that phase is to have a smaller bidirectional-charger-like system based on a modest-sized house battery and much lower minimum charge power.

If I can start charging the house battery with ~20W of consumption and configure the charge power to maintain net consumption of 20-30W, even in Zero Export Mode, my Microinverters will ramp up all the way to the peak charge capacity of that battery charger.

If we assume that battery charger an go all the way to 2kW, all it takes then is the Emporia sensing the power going to the battery charger to device when to kick-off EV charging.

EV starts charging at 2kW, consumption shoots up ti 2kW, and battery charger drops all the way back down to the 20W minimum, at which point charge tracking can proceed.

The house battery will eventually be fully-charged at which point the EV charger will take over tracking responsibilities and when with the excess solar power drops below 1.44kW or the EV battery is fully-charged, the zero-export capability of the Microinverters takes over to avoid export of the tail.

Hopefully California takes long enough to impose these export taxes on us legacy customers that this full capability will materialize without needing to involve a great deal of DIYing, but this is the Teue Zero Export vision I’m working towards.

P.S. in terms of what you wrote above regarding ‘solar appliancces’, what I was told by Empoeua was that current functionality merely allows you to set a list of prioritization on smartplugs to specify the order in which they should be activated whe there is energy being exported.

That is next to useless and what I requested them to do was add an export power threshold as well as a minimum on time, mimimum off time, maximum number of cycles per day, and start/stop timers for each smart plug to make that capability more useful.

We’ll see if that ‘ticket’ goes anywhere..,
 
You keep talking about bi-directional EV charging. I'm guessing this is the V2X you're referring to. At this point it's vapor ware so I'm not going to plan anything around this solution until it truly materializes.

I agree with you, the solar excess switching needs more tune-ability or at the very least I need a better understanding how it works in terms of hysteresis, what triggers cycling etc. Emporia has some work ahead of them to make their system better suited for these scenarios, for sure!

Since I have 33.6 kWh of battery I'm not that concerned about optimizing my EV charging to the fullest, I can just set a low steady rate and have the house battery pick up the solar and consumption surges of my house. With my Sol-Ark 15K the only key metric I need to pay attention to is not to go over 15kW in the daytime or 12kW in the night time as those are the power limits and anything over that has to come from the grid.

I think the same can go for my space heaters too, I can simply drive them from battery/solar and have the battery cycle a bit more because of it.

But realistically as long as I have free electricity from 9pm to 7am, I don't really worry about all of this, I'll run the space heaters all night and charge my EV during the night and dump the daytime solar on the grid for some measly credit. Hopefully my rates will renew at the same terms in two years or Emporia gets significantly better by then where I can really start optimizing my solar charges.
 
You keep talking about bi-directional EV charging. I'm guessing this is the V2X you're referring to. At this point it's vapor ware so I'm not going to plan anything around this solution until it truly materializes.
V2X is generic enough it does not really represent the capability I’m interested in. V2L is too limited to be very useful (islanded power only) and V2G is so complicated it will be very slow to materialize (if ever).

V2H is what I am waiting for and between what Volkswagen has promised for the ID.4 before the end of this year and the V2H-capable bidirectional charger Emporia believes they will be launching next spring, hopefully that moves from vaporware to actual capability one can buy into soon enough…
I agree with you, the solar excess switching needs more tune-ability or at the very least I need a better understanding how it works in terms of hysteresis, what triggers cycling etc. Emporia has some work ahead of them to make their system better suited for these scenarios, for sure!
Agreed - let’s hope they wake up to that fact by the time their bidirectional charger launches.
Since I have 33.6 kWh of battery I'm not that concerned about optimizing my EV charging to the fullest, I can just set a low steady rate and have the house battery pick up the solar and consumption surges of my house.
Well yeah, if I had a battery that size I wouldn’t waste my time with bidirectional charging either. We’re at very different stages of capability as well as in very different environments…
With my Sol-Ark 15K the only key metric I need to pay attention to is not to go over 15kW in the daytime or 12kW in the night time as those are the power limits and anything over that has to come from the grid.
In my case, static loads will never come close to exceeding the capability of the smallest hybrid inverter I can find and when I get startup surges exceeding interval geberation capacity that requires some energy being drawn from grid, those are so short I don’t mind ‘paying’ for them.

Right now my GTIL-based nighttime generation capability is limited to 1.6kW, do whenever we using the oven and the 3kW element turns on, I’m drawing at least 1.4kW from the grid. No biggie.
I think the same can go for my space heaters too, I can simply drive them from battery/solar and have the battery cycle a bit more because of it.
Here in California, we are forced to pay for 3-4kW every month (depends on season) which we either consume or it’s just a monthly fee. So I’m not hung up on avoiding all grid consumption as much as I am positioning myself to avoid all grid export…
But realistically as long as I have free electricity from 9pm to 7am, I don't really worry about all of this, I'll run the space heaters all night and charge my EV during the night and dump the daytime solar on the grid for some measly credit.
Yeah, free electricity certainly changes the math, doesn’t it. Here, the cheapest we get overnight in wintertime is $0.20/kWh and from there, we pay as much as $0.50/kWh during summer peak hours of 4-9pm.

You’ve got a great deal going.
Hopefully my rates will renew at the same terms in two years or Emporia gets significantly better by then where I can really start optimizing my solar charges.
OK, so the free ride is not guaranteed to continue forever - in that respect our situations are similar.

My NEM agreement was supposed to be export for credit at full retail rates for 20 years.

First they added that new monthly minimum of $10/month (so minimum bill of $120/year).

Then they moved peak hours from 12-6pm to 4-9pm (so a kWh generated while the sun shining will only offset 40% of a kWh consumed after sunset.

And next that plan to start charging a solar tax of $8/kW of installed solar panels every month for the right to export power. They are also reducing the 20-year grandfather period to at least 15 years if not less.

So by 2031 if not sooner, it’ll be costing me least $384 per year to export power (and likely quote a bit more than that when the time comes).

I’ll have an EV before then and I believe the V2H capability should provide a solution to avoid all export without needing to invest in an expensive house battery.

So by the time I do invest in an expensive / top-cabin hybrid such as your Solark, I’m hoping it can be chosen as part of a fully-mature and not-exhrbitanrky-priced True Zero Export solution.
 
Moving the goal post on folks is kind of a dirty move but the way your power agreements and utility billing works I can kind of see why it is necessary for the well being of your grid. I mean I'm in Texas so I shouldn't really say much about the well being of a grid but here we get charged separately per kWh for delivery (which pays for the grid infrastructure) and then we get charged for every kWh of electricity for the actual power.

I personally think net metering was a good idea to get people going but it is not sustainable long term going forward. Once you hit critical mass and everyone is producing solar during the day but everyone wants to use power at night, the system breaks down. Having said that, Australia works just fine on solar and wind: https://reglobal.co/a-grid-dominated-by-wind-and-solar-is-possible-a-case-study-of-south-australia/

I think in home self consumption will be the true name of the game. I don't mind paying the $5 monthly fee to have grid access and pay for the electricity I use from the grid including the delivery charge but $8/month/kWh sounds unsustainable. At $0.20/kWh that would require you to export 40 kWh/kW/month just to break even. That's 1.3 kWh/day for every kW of PV. in Texas at my location I can estimate to be producing about 3.4 kWh per kW of PV per day on average. That is a 38% tax on PV production at that point and makes it non-viable.

Home consumption will alter the snake oil salesmen's tactics as they will not be able to sell people on the idea that everything they produce will automatically offset their consumption. With no net metering, the bets are off and you have to do the math for yourself.

I don't even have my PTO in place but with my inverter I can just limit my PV to home consumption only and that is not something they can stop me from doing. I think this will be the future of solar production. My system is set up to be 94% self consumed with my usage/PV size and battery whether I have free nights or not. With free nights my math changes so I only self consume 66% and export 34% because I have no need for the daytime electricity if you give me free power at night. My contract with my REP (retail electricity provider) is for 24 months, after that they can re-evaluate and offer something different or I am free to choose a competitor if I want to.

As for EVs, I have one with a 93 kWh battery but I only charge about 12 kWh/day with the mileage I drive. I would not want to use my expensive EV as a home battery anyway, Lifepo cells for the house are still way cheaper than full battery replacements in EVs. Sure, for emergencies it'd be nice to have an additional 93 kWh storage that I could dip into but for normal use I'd never want to cycle that battery for my home power needs.
 
Moving the goal post on folks is kind of a dirty move but the way your power agreements and utility billing works I can kind of see why it is necessary for the well being of your grid. I mean I'm in Texas so I shouldn't really say much about the well being of a grid but here we get charged separately per kWh for delivery (which pays for the grid infrastructure) and then we get charged for every kWh of electricity for the actual power.

I personally think net metering was a good idea to get people going but it is not sustainable long term going forward. Once you hit critical mass and everyone is producing solar during the day but everyone wants to use power at night, the system breaks down. Having said that, Australia works just fine on solar and wind: https://reglobal.co/a-grid-dominated-by-wind-and-solar-is-possible-a-case-study-of-south-australia/

I think in home self consumption will be the true name of the game. I don't mind paying the $5 monthly fee to have grid access and pay for the electricity I use from the grid including the delivery charge but $8/month/kWh sounds unsustainable. At $0.20/kWh that would require you to export 40 kWh/kW/month just to break even. That's 1.3 kWh/day for every kW of PV. in Texas at my location I can estimate to be producing about 3.4 kWh per kW of PV per day on average. That is a 38% tax on PV production at that point and makes it non-viable.

Home consumption will alter the snake oil salesmen's tactics as they will not be able to sell people on the idea that everything they produce will automatically offset their consumption. With no net metering, the bets are off and you have to do the math for yourself.

I don't even have my PTO in place but with my inverter I can just limit my PV to home consumption only and that is not something they can stop me from doing. I think this will be the future of solar production. My system is set up to be 94% self consumed with my usage/PV size and battery whether I have free nights or not. With free nights my math changes so I only self consume 66% and export 34% because I have no need for the daytime electricity if you give me free power at night. My contract with my REP (retail electricity provider) is for 24 months, after that they can re-evaluate and offer something different or I am free to choose a competitor if I want to.

As for EVs, I have one with a 93 kWh battery but I only charge about 12 kWh/day with the mileage I drive. I would not want to use my expensive EV as a home battery anyway, Lifepo cells for the house are still way cheaper than full battery replacements in EVs. Sure, for emergencies it'd be nice to have an additional 93 kWh storage that I could dip into but for normal use I'd never want to cycle that battery for my home power needs.
I don’t have any problem with them changing the rules and economics for new customers. It’s those of us who spect $thousands or tens of thousands to ‘lock in our electricity costs for the next 20 years that has me pissed.

I’ll be OK because I installed my own system and was very frugal with system costs, so I’ve already pretty much broken even.

By my neighbor borrowed $25,000 from the city to install his system. He’s paying that loan off as an addition to his property taxes over the next 20 years. Those folks are getting screwed (or rather they are getting forced to invest more in a battery and a hybrid inverter).

They call it the ‘carrot tax’. - imagine if you grew carrots in your backyard but the city came and told you you had to pay a tax for each carrot you grew equal to what it would have cost you in the store.

Again, if they want to stop future installs of rooftop solar, I have no problem with that - it’s the tax being forced on us legacy customers after 15 years instead of 20 that has me worked up.

As far as killing new solar installs, it gets even better. They are going to move from Net Energy Metering which means you true-up every year, up Net Billing which means you true you monthly.

So no more building up credit during the summer to offset consumption charges in the winter.

Excess monthly production will be credited at wholesale, meaning $0.05/ kWh currently.

So in the summer when I’m generating 150% of consumption, that credit will now offset only 1/5th to 1/6th of my wintertime consumption.

Or even better, those Sumer months my overgeberation credit will amount yo something like $11.50 and for the full year, my total generation credit will or total to more that $75 or so.

So the best case is I’ll get $11.50 in credit to reduce the $32 on per kW taxes they are going to charge me and for the year, The $384 in solar taxes they will charge me will be offset by 20% for all the excess electricity I sent their way.

It’s going to force all the legacy customers to move to zero export. Which again, I don’t have a problem with nearly as much as the reduction of the 20-year grandfathering period to 15.

I already have a 10kWh house battery, so the storage I’ll need from an EV to get me through to the next day will be less than that used to drive 10 miles. I’m not worried about that wear and I’d much rather put that $10K or $20K towards an EV than a bigger and high-voltage house battery.

But absolutely, at least here in California, the only residential solar that’s going make sense will be 100% capture and self-use (True Zero Export).
 
Since I'm in Texas where the zero export is the only scenario that makes sense already I have fairly little remorse for you guys on the west coast :).

My family in Europe has 20 year Net Metering in place and they do exactly what you guys could do; export in the summer during the day, use it in the winter at night. As long as the summer excess put little dent into the cost of electricity at the wholesale level this was fine. But with solar starting to hit critical mass I can see how not all electricity is created equal. TOU is there for a reason and it would be unreasonable to give someone watt for watt when they don't represent the same value.

The newly proposed PV "tax" (connection fee) is essentially a form of wealth tax. If you want to balance things out and bring up the bottom end it might make sense on paper. The problem is, like you said, not everyone who opted for solar bought it cash and is "wealthy". Some are paying it back under the idea that it made long term financial sense. Sounds like the solution is doing hefty system upgrades to be completely self-using. Again, I would never have purchased a system that relied on externalities like net metering being in place for 20 year durations, but that's just me.

I guess your argument on the EV makes sense if you're fine with only using the battery when the car is at home. The cost saving of not buying the home battery can be put into the vehicle sounds reasonable.

My batteries are coming tomorrow, I'm pretty excited about my system now!
 
Since I'm in Texas where the zero export is the only scenario that makes sense already I have fairly little remorse for you guys on the west coast :).

My family in Europe has 20 year Net Metering in place and they do exactly what you guys could do; export in the summer during the day, use it in the winter at night. As long as the summer excess put little dent into the cost of electricity at the wholesale level this was fine. But with solar starting to hit critical mass I can see how not all electricity is created equal. TOU is there for a reason and it would be unreasonable to give someone watt for watt when they don't represent the same value.

The newly proposed PV "tax" (connection fee) is essentially a form of wealth tax. If you want to balance things out and bring up the bottom end it might make sense on paper. The problem is, like you said, not everyone who opted for solar bought it cash and is "wealthy". Some are paying it back under the idea that it made long term financial sense. Sounds like the solution is doing hefty system upgrades to be completely self-using. Again, I would never have purchased a system that relied on externalities like net metering being in place for 20 year durations, but that's just me.

I guess your argument on the EV makes sense if you're fine with only using the battery when the car is at home. The cost saving of not buying the home battery can be put into the vehicle sounds reasonable.

My batteries are coming tomorrow, I'm pretty excited about my system now!
Good luck with the new battery - what did you get?

The house battery I have now is sufficient to cover all but overnight loads of ~2.5kWh (fridges) and the ~3.5kWh morning surge before solar power gets strong enough to offset. So when the EV is out for a day, I’d only be looking at a maximum of ~6kWh imported from the grid.

They are forcing me to purchase $10/33kWh per month anyway, so as long as the EV is not out more than 5 days a month, occasional absence will be neutral to me.

I’m like you - I was suspicious the 20-year deal would change (or that the equipment would fail with defunct suppliers who could no longer back it up), so I put my system 4kW system in myself for $5000 rather than paying an installer $20-25,000.

Under the new rules being proposed, you can build a system which is sized at 150% of consumption (so that you can generate enough to offset consumption in winter months).

So I would be able to put in a 6kW system but it would need a house battery sized to capture most of overnight consumption.

That class system would cost at least $35K through an installer and I don’t think I could do it for much under $20K if I’m using all UL listed and city-approved equipment.

The extension of the 30% solar tax credits is nice and means net cost of ~$14K to $24K after credits.

Let’s be generous and say consumption cost was $2000, meaning 7 to 12 years to break even if everything works out.

But wait, there is that solar tax of $8/kW/month, or $576 in this case.

So now you are saving a maximum of $1424 per year versus what you’d be spending without solar, meaning that your beak-even will be 17 years if you paid an installer and 10 years if you do it yourself like me.

I’ve got friends with money who want solar primarily to ‘go green’ and the financial return is utterly unimportant to them. So the result of all of these changes will just be to reduce the market for solar installers to that group of rich individuals who want to ‘offset their carbon footprints’ no matter the cost.

Again, I’m OK with that for the new customers (though it’ll be devastating to the rooftop solar installer industry), but impacting the 1.4 million existing solar customers in California who’ve already drunk the coolaid rubs me the wrong way.

I’ll be OK in any case and I’m just trying to prepare myself for all options. It looks like it will eventually cost me $384 a year to continue to be authorized for export, so if I can find a solution (leveraging an EV I plan to buy anyway) to stop all export for under $2000 or at most $4000, I’d go back to being a regular ‘ol electricity customer (who just happens to consume very little from the grid).

33kWh per month translates to average consumption of 45W 24/7, do that’s my spec for a True Zero Export system - if I can never export at all and maintain a minimum import level of 20-40W always, I’ll just be paying for extra power when the weather is bad and when large loads such as my electric oven need more than my inverter capacity can deliver.
 
I'm getting a Homegrid Stack'd 33.6 kWh system. It can't be here soon enough. Today I had an hour power outage which is not common in my area but I guess the grid wanted to show me one last time who the boss is :).

I stumbled into this interesting tidbit, which explains the reason you need 1.44kW before EV charging can commence:

The minimum charge current of the EV Charger is 6 A. According to the IEC 61851 standard, a lower value is not permitted.

I guess I should consider myself lucky with my setup and Texas electricity pricing. I just learned about bitcoin miners and with the free nightly electricity they actually pose a net positive proposition with an ROI of about 16 months. I'm almost inclined to invest in a 3kW miner as it would be a net win for me even though it would probably be a net loss for the environment, something my son seems to be bothered by and got pretty salty when I suggested that we should buy one of these miners. 900 kWh of free electricity a month bothered him a good bit.
 

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