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Sol-Ark 15K Rejected by PG&E in California

goldserve said:
Isn’t it true that if the inverter can do grid sell, it can’t really prevent power flowing back out the grid do the control loop time and accuracy of CT readings?
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Correct. Although when using the zero export functionality the amount is very small and only happens when a load shuts off. The inverter will still shut down/sever grid connection when the grid power fails
 
The sad thing is these customers waited per my recommendation for these 15K inverters so once approved by the CEC we pulled the trigger and installed them. We are not large scale installers just a couple semi-retired contractor and engineer helping some friends save big $$ versus a typicall sar installer.
After the next 5 installs two SolArk 15k and two 12k and one simple SMA real retirement is looking more and more like a reality.
 
goldserve said:
Isn’t it true that if the inverter can do grid sell, it can’t really prevent power flowing back out the grid do the control loop time and accuracy of CT readings?
Click to expand...

Cheap 4-life said:
SolArk, GTIL2 etc, grid tie zero export inverters do absolutely backfeed when loads shut off till the inverter reacts and ceases to produce power. ...
IMO this small amount of backfeed shouldn’t matter.
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A blip of backfeed wouldn't negatively impact the grid, so shouldn't be forbidden.

The inverter is quite capable of backfeeding, including when wire is broken and lineman is handling it, so I think permitting, inspection, and UL listing is appropriate. That ensures the connected equipment has met requirements for assurance against backfeed.

I would have the same concern with an off-grid inverter having a transfer switch. Can it fail in an unsafe condition?

An inverter with unidirectional battery charger from grid would have no such issues.

fafrd said:
Of course, if the grid causes your power generation to throttle-back to the point of causing you to import, that’s crossing a line because they are forcing you to purchase energy you did not need…
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I think this is the default, because a GT PV inverter doesn't know export. It just gets told to throttle back to a percentage of peak available power.
These ought to support CT, and throttle to a percentage of exported power, but never to the point of import.

Similar deal with battery; should be able to supply 100% of loads and charging from PV, only curtailing export. In the case of AC coupled system, GT PV doesn't know battery, only frequency.
 
I'm 100% off-grid w/grid-assist via ATSs. I'm powering about 50% of my home leaving a 50% footprint of regular consumption with the power company. I'm hoping to get this to 60-70% using my remaining (but less than optimal) space for more panels. Currently at 14kw but I think I can get to 20kw or so with enough sweet-taking my wonderful wife.

I have propane (100lb bottles = 22gal/bottle) generator backup for dead winter. Recently added kerosene heater capability as I'm thinking it's more efficient than generator -> heat-pump only and will reduce generator maint. Just recently realized k-1 kerosene is like propane in that it can store long term and is not explosive like gasoline and many have used it for home heating - especially when wood/fireplace is not an option.

EV wise, I'm hoping that those rumors that Ford may create a division to help/sell DIY electrification equipment to retro-fit older Fords are true. Maybe DIY EV will grow! Government EV control (limiting your speed in real time, kill-switch, tracking...) discussions makes me pause to buy a mainstream EV.

I have no faith in government or companies these days as it's all political and individual rights/autonomy are not valued. For now it's excessive regulation but active control seems like it's coming. DIY/keep-control all the way! :)
 
Last edited:
I read something about the new requirements for controlling inverters somewhere recently.

Is PG and E doing NET METER 3.0 now? I think this may be a new requirement of net meter 3.0
 
FightThePower said:
I read something about the new requirements for controlling inverters somewhere recently.

Is PG and E doing NET METER 3.0 now? I think this may be a new requirement of net meter 3.0
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Wonder what happens to all the non communicating inverters out there under 2.0?
 
schmism said:
unless your on variable rate use there is no point on putting cycles on your battery by charging it from the grid.
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The point was not to save on electric bills. The point was to be truly off-grid (grid as generator to charge battery only - total isolation between grid and loads).
 
PG&E in CA is a nightmare w/ PSP shutoffs now, and continues to increase rates every year or so, without solar and some battery storage apartment dwellers are in a bad situation at this point because they can't even do solar to offset the usage. Everyone else is paying for PG&E's mistakes and incompetence since they burned down 3 towns in the last 5 years. Grid tied since 2016 and haven't had problems, but true-ups are now $3k per year from $1k the first year. Until some more reactors come online (probably never w/ the enviro madness here), count on rates reaching $1 per kwh this decade. What's coming makes building a hybrid setup w/ batteries a no-brainer w/ 10 year warranties. Just amortize it on a line or credit or similar and it's paying for itself. The value of our money is evaporating anyways, and it's much worse when inflation hits those recurring costs that we can't avoid. A $15k battery array w/ 40-50kw is starting to look cheap when you can store and use 30-40kw per day at .48c per KWH rates w/ your solar.
 
Greg-G said:
As the OP on this, I did contact SolArk and they are looking into it. The 15K has the ability to Not Sell Back by using the Limit To Home and Limit to Load features. We designed to be basically grid Zero but it is nice to have them hooked up for inrush surges.
Our process is Local Building Permit and inspection (which both passed without issues).
Then go online with Pacific Graft & Extortion fill out applications and upload signed off permit and the One-Line-Diagram answer a bunch of questions and select from their pull down menu's pau them more money and wait for an email with Permission To Operate.
The first application last week they (PGE) responded equipment not on the approved list, which we promptly forwarded them. Then they responded with the highlighted boxes that didn't have a Yes.
BS and red tape, but that's what it take to do it right I guess. We will wait it out for a bit and see where it goes. SolArk is involved and hopefully it is high on the to do list. This area of California is a big market for the 15K inverter and with the 200A Xfer Switch built in nice easy install to cover the entire house/property.
We will see how long it takes.
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PG&E deserves blame for lots of things but in this case it's really not their fault. The advanced inverter requirements (CA Rule 21) were set by CPUC. So, all CA PoCo's (PG&E, SCE, SDG&E, etc.) are obligated to follow the rule.
 
OffGridInTheCity said:
Government EV control (limiting your speed in real time, kill-switch, tracking...) discussions makes me pause to buy a mainstream EV.
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That's a pretty impressive rumor to believe. There's no way it's true.
And even if it ever was, the controls would be just as easily applied to a new gas or diesel vehicle as they have plenty of computers and telematics onboard.

Nobodybusiness said:
Wonder what happens to all the non communicating inverters out there under 2.0?
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Grandfathered in, same as other obsolete tech. There's plenty of houses with asbestos in the popcorn ceiling. There will be plenty of houses with dumb old inverters.

solar8484 said:
PG&E deserves blame for lots of things but in this case it's really not their fault. The advanced inverter requirements (CA Rule 21) were set by CPUC. So, all CA PoCo's (PG&E, SCE, SDG&E, etc.) are obligated to follow the rule.
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Set by CPUC with power company input (lobbying), remember the proposed successor tariff? That was pulled back because of public objections, it favored the power co so heavily, it might as well have been written by them.
 
400bird said:
Grandfathered in, same as other obsolete tech. There's plenty of houses with asbestos in the popcorn ceiling. There will be plenty of houses with dumb old inverters.
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So get your inexpensive system in early before the politicians or corporations can hose you.
 
Greg-G said:
The sad thing is these customers waited per my recommendation for these 15K inverters so once approved by the CEC we pulled the trigger and installed them. We are not large scale installers just a couple semi-retired contractor and engineer helping some friends save big $$ versus a typicall sar installer.
After the next 5 installs two SolArk 15k and two 12k and one simple SMA real retirement is looking more and more like a reality.
Click to expand...
Was it the solark's ground breaking cyber capabilities that made you lead these people into hell?

I'm sorry that their snake oil marketing is hurting you and your friends.
 
Nobodybusiness said:
My Solar is designed for winter so overproduction in the summer.

Generator is for real extremes.

I have it plugged into Grid breaker and told Sol-Ark Grid was Generator.

I used Generator other day just to do a shake down but so far haven’t needed it.
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Same with my 10kW LP Gen with 400 gal. I’ll find out in Dec-Feb!
 
@400bird - yes, it's true. A connected car can be shut down by law enforcement.
Some cars already have this kill switch implemented. But just think of it. Not only a kill switch but they could possibly have total control.Think of the movies where a car mysteriously drives off a cliff because 'they' don't like you anymore.

@Greg-G - In the 'All In One' part of this forum you will see there are some existing issues with Sol-Ark products.

If you download the spreadsheet from the website link that Greg originally posted, there's a bunch of 'N's (as opposed to 'Y's)in there that don't appear on the website of approved inverters. So this is misleading. If you don't download the spreadsheet you will assume the inverter is OK to be used.

Attached is a pdf that was made by Edison Electric Institute in 2013. The EEI is an association of electric utility companies. They view the PV industry as a competitor and a threat to their profits. They are based in Washington DC but have offices all over the world. They basically lobby for legislation that favors their members.
If the horseshoe manufacturers had a lobbying group we'd all still be riding horses.
 

Attachments

  • disruptivechallenges.pdf
    940.7 KB · Views: 2
I can easily see the day when grid owners operators forbid all back feeding grid ties, I know energy regulators have serious long term issues with micro generation. I certainly think back feeding will most likely be outlawed. But in reality net metering is sufficient anyway.

I think solar PV will represent an existential treat to the economic basis for domestic supply grid operators ( DNOs) it will interesting to see this play out over the next 20 years. Many countries see grids as a national “ resource “ and will enact laws to protect it.
 
RV10flyer said:
Probably the same reason you chose Victron and I chose Sol-Ark.
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Is this reply supposed to make sense? Sol-Ark chose to claim they have "cyber" capabilities in their marketing materials--They put their own clown makeup on and you expect me to not laugh at them...

I wouldn't be installing a Victron if I was trying to meet the latest California requirements for grid interconnection, that would be pretty ignorant given the surrounding bureaucracy and pre-existing vested interests that would be governing the solution. Victron hasn't entered the main US market yet effectively since most of their gear still has no UL listing (which can even involve changes to the equipment) outside a couple specific models.

I love California, but I would rather be offgrid in Hawaii (with fiber internet+starlink+LTE backups) than power grid connected in California.
 
SolarRich said:
@400bird - yes, it's true. A connected car can be shut down by law enforcement.
Some cars already have this kill switch implemented. But just think of it. Not only a kill switch but they could possibly have total control.Think of the movies where a car mysteriously drives off a cliff because 'they' don't like you anymore.
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Wow, the movies sure are fun to watch.
But the infrastructure bill doesn't include anything about a kill switch, remote steering, or connected cars.

www.snopes.com

Does Infrastructure Bill Require Surveillance System in New Vehicles to Track Drivers?

The bill was said to require a "kill switch" that law enforcement could use to "shut your car off."
www.snopes.com www.snopes.com

apnews.com

Posts distort infrastructure law’s rule on impaired driving technology

In November 2021, Biden signed the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, ushering into law a $1 trillion bipartisan deal to maintain and upgrade the country’s roads, bridges, ports and more.
apnews.com apnews.com

This is the first I had heard of this section of the infrastructure bill, but wow is it stupid. At least the bill includes provisions to delay implementation because the tech does not exist and has not be developed to "passively and accurately" detect drunk driving.
 

Attachments

  • Section-24220-Advanced-Impaired-Driving-Technology.pdf
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