Grid Tie Victron ESS with DIY LiFePO4 Battery in Australia - Regulatory Issues?

Edit: Mar 2023 to include Victron in thread title.​

​

The Plan:​

8.65kw PV via Fronius Primo 6kw
2 Victron Multiplus II 48/3000/35 in Parallel with Victron ESS
Primo on AC1 Out of Multis
Grid on AC In of Multis.
These are all approved in Australia.

The Battery:​

DIY LiFePO4 of size to be determined - likely 16S 280AH cells but may go to 2 x 16S 200AH or thereabouts.

The Benefit:​

Modelling of consumption & generation over the last 12 months suggests being able to achieve greater than 95% energy self sufficiency. The bigger the battery, the higher the self sufficiency but with diminishing returns.

The Red Tape:​

Does anyone have experience with installing a Grid Tie DIY LiFePO4 battery in Australia & can they share their experience with regard to any regulatory issues they came across?

Did standard AS/NZS 5139 (Electrical installations — Safety of battery systems for use with power conversion equipment) come into play at any stage?

If compliance certification/inspection was required with any standard (not just AS/NZS 5139) or regulation, how was it achieved?


I am really hoping someone in this most excellent forum has experience to share on this topic - it will save me a lot of worry & sleepless nights.

PS. not concerned about insurance in this post as that is whole other can of worms as evidenced by other threads - will deal with that separately.

BipedalPrimate said:

Does anyone have experience with installing a Grid Tie DIY LiFePO4 battery in Australia & can they share their experience with regard to any regulatory issues they came across?

Click to expand...

Not from personal experience, but from what I've read and heard from Andy (off-grid-garage) anything grid-tie in Australia can't be done DIY.
AS/NZS 5033:2021 also has this clause:

1. 35V DC and above is to be deemed hazardous and all conductor parts that can carry 35V or more will have to have earth alarms.

Which tends to rule out DIY as well.

upnorthandpersonal said:

AS/NZS 5033:2021 also has this clause:

1. 35V DC and above is to be deemed hazardous and all conductor parts that can carry 35V or more will have to have earth alarms.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

AS/NZS 5033:2021 seems to be related to installation of PV arrays.

AS/NZS 5139 for battery installations introduces a Decisive Voltage Classification as follows:



suggesting a DIY 48v battery is DVC A.

It further mentions:



So I think a DIY battery should be OK without an earth alarm.

But it's part of the entire system - the solar voltage comes to the MPPT. I quote:

"At first glance this limit wouldn’t affect a 12, 24, or 48-volt battery. However, small solar systems often include a solar array with a higher voltage, connected to the battery via a charge controller using Maximum Power Point Tracking (MPPT) technology. For example, two solar panels might be connected on the roof in series so the cable leading to the charge controller carries a voltage up to 90 Volts. An example of such a controller is the Victron 100/30 pictured to the right. Since this voltage exceeds DVC-A, under the new standard this is no longer allowed for nonelectricians. Even working on the connected 48- volt battery may not be allowed since the charge controller might only use electronics to convert the voltage, which can’t be sufficiently trusted to isolate the battery from the higher voltage, according to AS 5139.27"

Source: https://renew.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/BattRulesTightened01G.pdf

Thanks again - the renew.org document is a good read.

upnorthandpersonal said:

But it's part of the entire system - the solar voltage comes to the MPPT.

Click to expand...

I agree with you if I was planning to charge the DIY battery bank with MPPT's.

Although Victron MPPT's are certified for use in Australia, they do not provide isolation between the PV side & the battery side. So, in the unlikely event of failure they could pass through the PV voltage to the battery - NOT GOOD as Andy would say.

I had contemplated putting a DC Voltage Sensing Relay on the output of a MPPT to open the circuit if voltage exceeded 60v DC (or other selected limit) as a fail safe.

My plan is to use Victron Multiplus II as the charging source &, as far as I know, they are isolated devices that will not allow their AC to pass through the DC battery side. If you have any different information, it would be welcomed.

Yes, it is not very efficient to go from DC PV to AC via a Fronius inverter then back to DC charging via a Multiplus II, but I am thinking it works within the constraints of the standards.

Keeping our public standards, which we've already paid for, behind high priced private paywalls such that reasonably accessing them is a practical impossibility for single instance users is a disgrace.

BipedalPrimate said:

Hi Bipedal.

Click to expand...

Did you determine legalities around the 'red tape'?

BipedalPrimate said:

The Plan:​

8.65kw PV via Fronius Primo 6kw
2 Victron Multiplus II 48/3000/35 in Parallel with Victron ESS
Primo on AC1 Out of Multis
Grid on AC In of Multis.
These are all approved in Australia.

The Battery:​

DIY LiFePO4 of size to be determined - likely 16S 280AH cells but may go to 2 x 16S 200AH or thereabouts.

The Benefit:​

Modelling of consumption & generation over the last 12 months suggests being able to achieve greater than 95% energy self sufficiency. The bigger the battery, the higher the self sufficiency but with diminishing returns.

The Red Tape:​

Does anyone have experience with installing a Grid Tie DIY LiFePO4 battery in Australia & can they share their experience with regard to any regulatory issues they came across?

Did standard AS/NZS 5139 (Electrical installations — Safety of battery systems for use with power conversion equipment) come into play at any stage?

If compliance certification/inspection was required with any standard (not just AS/NZS 5139) or regulation, how was it achieved?


I am really hoping someone in this most excellent forum has experience to share on this topic - it will save me a lot of worry & sleepless nights.

Click to expand...

Ramos said:

Did you determine legalities around the 'red tape'?

Click to expand...

Hi Ramos,

No I did not - have not had a reply from someone in Australia that has done what I am planning or similar.

As far as the grid is concerned, the Multis will isolate in the event of grid failure so no apparent issue there. (AS/NZS 4777)

So the Multis provide a safe barrier between the consumer side and the grid side and battery & PV is on the consumer side.

Safety on the AC consumer side has to be well constructed so should and will get an electrican to do all the AC wiring between Multis, Fronius and AC distribution.

DC wiring, DC circuit protection and battery construction will be done by me according to AS/NZS 5139.

Any thoughts?

see how you go, my recommendation would be to get in touch with sparky/solar installers who have specific experience in offgrid/have actually heard of DIY batteries, it can be difficult.
My experience has been that the general grid connected solar electricians / installers want nothing to do with DIY batteries, and either haven't heard of them, don't believe it is possible, or have zero interest in certifying any kind of DIY work. If the battery/inverter combination isnt in the AS4777 list, then they want nothing to do with it, with the main interest being slapping up as many cookie cutter systems as possible.
I bought a place in 2017 that already had a solar system installed - 3.6kw of panels, 5kw inverter. The system was installed and connected in 2012. It worked perfectly, but I wanted to upgrade it to use the full inverter capacity - makes sense right. No installer could touch it, as the inverter was not on the AS4777 list (despite supporting volt/var profiles etc - not on the list, it cannot be CEC certified). No Vic solar rebate for a new system, as their cutoff is NOV/2009. I actually made many enquiries a few years back, and was told by solar vic that the rebate date would be rolled forward - 3 years later it hasn't changed.
With the idea of building a DIY battery, I talked to installers about getting a new system with a hybrid 48V inverter installed. No installers I contacted would even quote for one, saying it was a waste of time and they only recommended adding an AC coupled battery at a later date. Mentioning a DIY battery was met with silence followed by a lecture about the danger of batteries etc. (I think this is probably the best way forward, find a good, flexible installer, get them to install and certify your system with the components / location you want, then add the battery later).

Anyway... got kinda antsy and decided to upgrade the system myself. Added another 2.5kW of panels to the existing inverter. Got real worried about the grid utility getting angst about the excess feed in (they have 3.6kw on the books), decided farkkk it, bought a 48V hybrid (goodwe 5048, AS4777 etc), installed that, export limit set to 3.6 (CEC cert etc required to lift it to 5), DIY battery completed and running well (16S 302AH). I read all the applicable codes and the work should be compliant, also had a sparky mate (who works for a larger company) check it over, all good, however, they are not at all interested in certifying any type of DIY work. I do worry a little about things like insurance and what not but ... at the end of the day, every place I have rented in the last 10 years has had various DIY bodge and obviously non compliant electrical present, so I do find it difficult to believe a claim would be completely denied based on this fact (not in any way shape or form legal advice, maybe I am just dodgy....), but they would likely refuse to pay out for 5k of non signed off solar equipment install etc.

good luck

BipedalPrimate said:

Hi Ramos,

No I did not - have not had a reply from someone in Australia that has done what I am planning or similar.

As far as the grid is concerned, the Multis will isolate in the event of grid failure so no apparent issue there. (AS/NZS 4777)

So the Multis provide a safe barrier between the consumer side and the grid side and battery & PV is on the consumer side.

Safety on the AC consumer side has to be well constructed so should and will get an electrican to do all the AC wiring between Multis, Fronius and AC distribution.

DC wiring, DC circuit protection and battery construction will be done by me according to AS/NZS 5139.

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

Hi BipedalPrimate.

I was quite excited by this same idea six months ago but couldn't find enough information to give me confidence to pull the trigger.

I have full faith in the system and the protection built into it but am concerned about standards and insurance.

Ramos said:

Hi BipedalPrimate.

I was quite excited by this same idea six months ago but couldn't find enough information to give me confidence to pull the trigger.

I have full faith in the system and the protection built into it but am concerned about standards and insurance.

Click to expand...

Ramos,
What information do you feel you are missing?

Hi BipedalPrimate.
It would be comforting to hear an authority say 'yes you can legally install that DIY grid-tied battery system, have it certified and your home insurance will not be affected'.

Are you going to proceed?

Ramos said:

Hi BipedalPrimate.
It would be comforting to hear an authority say 'yes you can legally install that DIY grid-tied battery system, have it certified and your home insurance will not be affected'.

Are you going to proceed?

Click to expand...

I have ordered the Victron Multiplus II's and am shopping now for the LiFePO4 cells.

Ramos said:

It would be comforting to hear an authority say 'yes you can legally install that DIY grid-tied battery system, have it certified and your home insurance will not be affected'.

Click to expand...

The only organisation who can issue a statement about whether or not something affects your insurance coverage is your insurance company.

BipedalPrimate said:

I have ordered the Victron Multiplus II's and am shopping now for the LiFePO4 cells.

Click to expand...

I'll just leave this here for you:

What you're specifically looking for is Category 3 battery requirements, covered under section 6 of the above doc, of which the final step is getting the install certified, which would theoretically make it fine. The fine print is that some insurers will have exemptions that will automatically exclude you.

Thanks to all that responded.

I have done some further digging to the regulatory framework that seems to mimic a game of 3 dimensional chess being in played 4 dimensions.

Thinking that AS/NZS 5139:2019 (Electrical installations — Safety of battery systems for use with power conversion equipment) would be the best place to start, its defines at 1.3.28 that a 'competent person' is:

and at 6.2.1 Installation Requirements - General


Reasonable and Dunning-Kruger Effect notwithstanding, persons having done their research, could implement AS/NZS 5139, have a reasonable amount of electrical experience, having some humility, being cautious and being so inclined, could meet the requirements.

However, I came across this: Australia, worst place in the world for DIY electrical which caused me question everything.

Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt (FUD) starts to gnaw away. At this point, I usually start down the research rabbit hole of Australian Law starting with my home and contents insurance policy.

Lo and behold, it contains the words:
amongst other things.

Surely that is to exclude cover for using my house as a Meth Lab (Breaking Bad) with a consequent explosion, but I had better be sure.

I dig a bit further into the Electricity Safety Act 1998 which states at s38:


One penalty unit is currently AUD$184.92 , so a fine for this infringement is AUD$9,246. To be avoided if possible.

But there is question of does the installation of 280AH 51.2V LiFePO4 under AS/NZS 5139 constitute a 'prescribed class of electrical work'.

The Electricity Safety Act 1998 also includes the following:

Lets look at the Electricity Safety (General) Regulations 2019


Bottom line - even if I install a 280AH 51.2V LiFePO4 battery system according to AS/NZS 5139 with all of the hazards addressed,

I can understand these rules for battery systems with high voltages (Tesla Powerwall 350-450V DC) and unsafe chemistries (NMC, etc) but !@#$%.

Next step will be to find a friendly local electrician with some knowledge of AS/NZS 5139 and ask them if they want a free Apprentice for a short period to do some specific work.

That is the only thing I can think of - sadly.

BipedalPrimate, how are you going with your install? or have you decided that it's too difficult given what you have dug up so far?

No real progress.

Contacted a local sparky & provided all the circuit diagrams but they balked at me doing the DC side.

Another fly in the ointment is that the Victron Multis are not approved by the CEC to feed in to the grid. So will have to replan based on the Fronius PV being on the AC In of the Multis & include a Victron Energy Meter.

Next plan is to pay a Licensed Electrical Inspector for some consulting work to review the design. Hopefully that will provide some confidence to a electrician to do the work.

Glad I bumped into this thread. I am trying to do a Very Similar thing with my place. I want to put in an Off grid inverter but have the AC in as a grid feed, and then use existing 6.6kw solar as a starting point. So I have been all over Andy's Garage, AS5139 and AS5033 ans AS 3000, I have a chap coming in a week who is a mate of a mate who recently closed a battery / solar business just to make sure I can do what I want.
The Key points are "OFFGRID", so under the Regs the way I interpret it, if you are not exporting to the grid, you fall under 5033, not 4777, you can use non CEC approved equipment to a degree. You still need to use equipment that complies. Secondly there is no need to add a battery immediately. It can be done and be "Battery Ready" inspected and passed.

PM me if you want more details

Let us all know how it goes.

BipedalPrimate said:

No real progress.

Contacted a local sparky & provided all the circuit diagrams but they balked at me doing the DC side.

Another fly in the ointment is that the Victron Multis are not approved by the CEC to feed in to the grid. So will have to replan based on the Fronius PV being on the AC In of the Multis & include a Victron Energy Meter.

Next plan is to pay a Licensed Electrical Inspector for some consulting work to review the design. Hopefully that will provide some confidence to a electrician to do the work.

Click to expand...

I'm still learning here so could have this all back to front

Looking at the possibilities of doing something like this as well. My only question is whether the Multiplus can be connected to the grid of if it is only not allowed to export to the grid. My understanding of the Multiplus is that is is an inverter/charger and is not able to direct export to the grid as it has an internal transfer switch which means its either inverting, charging, or passing through but not exporting back to the grid.

If I am wrong, is the solution to put the Fronius on the AC in side and then have the Fronius sitting between the Multiplus and the grid. To me it would be more logical if possible to have the Fronius after the Multiplus and using the latter to trigger the Fronius to come online to assist.

Lastly I dont want to feed anything back into the grid, I just dont want to buy from the grid unless absolutely necessary ie weeks of rain.

Apologies for this rather long post.

Multiplus II 48/3000/35 Inverter is CEC listed as approved as Stand Alone Inverter With Generator Input Battery Only. This means my local electricity distributor will not allow it to be grid connected in an ESS configuration.

The approval certificate is Certificate SAA181339.pdf attached.

That certificate shows compliance with:

IEC 62109-1 Ed 1.0,
IEC 62109-2 Ed 1.0,
AS 62477.1:2016 and
AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 Inc A1

The CEC document CEC-inverter_listing_categories_2021.pdf (p2 attached) indicates the Multiplus II 48/3000/35 Inverter meets the requirements as a Multiple Mode Inverter and hence approved as a Grid Interactive inverter.

When I asked my Victron Distributor why it not allowed as a Grid Interactive inverter, I got this response:

Please see response back from the CEC to Victron in relation to their application for grid connect :

"AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 was written/developed with a new clause/Appendix for stand-alone inverters that can connect to the grid and draw power from the grid and but not export.

The CEC listing offers 2 options for:

• Stand-alone inverter with grid input
• Stand-alone inverter with generator input

To qualify for the Stand-alone inverter with grid input – the inverter needs to be certified to AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 Appendix M which was specifically written for stand alone inverter with ac grid input. Otherwise if the inverter has not been certified to AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 Appendix M, then the inverter is approved as stand-alone inverter with generator input, in which the AC input port should only be connected to a generator and not the grid.

Manufacturers are allowed to choose which of the 2 categories they would like the inverter to be approved as long as the correct certification documents are submitted during the application process.

If Victron does not wish to have the stand-alone inverters certified to AS/NZS 4777.2:2020, Victron can select the Stand-alone inverter with generator input - this will require an appropriate statement advising that for AU market for fixed household energy storage installations, the AC input port cannot be connected to the grid and only to an generator.

Please note that in Australia, the compliance of inverters to AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 is monitored by the CEC with our product compliance and testing program, Grid Operators that the inverters connect to, AEMO - the Australia Energy Market Operator, and Electrical Safety Regulators (who have inspectors to carry out site inspections).

Kind Regards,
CEC"

An additional comment from my local Victron distributor is: "Victron is not tested to AS4777.2.2020 Appendix M and it is highly unlikely that they will be."

Conclusion is that Victron have made a marketing decision to not compete in the Australian Grid Tied ESS market.

However, see next post for a possible workaround.

Possible workaround.

A user based in NZ on the Victron Community blog has installed numerous Victron systems & is mostly subject to the same standards as Australia, has been using a Grid Protection Relay to 'protect' the grid and overcome the regulatory issues with Victron.

So I asked my DNSP (Distribution Network Service Provider - the company that actually delivers electricity to your meter) for a list of approved Grid Protection Monitoring Relays that will safely protect the grid when my solar installation is operating in intentional islanding mode.

Reply as follows:

"Ausnet does not have an approved list of Grid Protection Relays, however the following relays are suitable and the most used within the industry for the purpose:

Regards,"

Now these are not cheap - the ABB is over AUD$4000 and the Tele Haase is about AUD$1000. They are designed for 3 phase supplies but the Tele Haase can be used on single phase - there could be others.

Ausgrid and other DNSP's have a larger list which this a subset of - Google "Grid Protection Relay Australia".

So it seems possible - see next post for design with Grid Protection Relay.

It seems that a Grid Protection Relay will disconnect the grid using the settings in the previous post - those settings have a wider tolerance than the Australia A Grid Code settings in VE Config. This suggests that a Victron will probably disconnect from the grid before an approved Grid Protection Relay will.

However, the Victron Australia A Grid Code settings do not show ROCOF Up or Down, Vector Shift positive or negative nor sustained 10 Min Over Voltage, suggesting some additional parameters are required which Victron cannot handle.

So, incorporated a Grid Protection Relay into the design as follows:

Bypassed Licensed Electricians because if they install this and a Licensed Electrical Inspector say "No", they would be on the hook to make it compliant at no additional charge to me - hence Licensed Electricians are very reluctant to be involved. This is, after all, something they probably have not come across before.

So, I asked a Licensed Electrical Inspector to review this and they said it looks fine.

I will use that to assist with getting a Licensed Electrician to do the work.