Will blasts Chargery

Is anyone using the Chargery with an SSR for inverter power control? You would have nothing but a shunt and OCPD between the inverter and battery (no relay, no SSR etc). Communication control of inverter is a million times more logical than using these massive relays. Having that much current going through any device for years on end is not logical in my opinion.

Will Prowse said:

Is anyone using the Chargery with an SSR for inverter power control? You would have nothing but a shunt and OCPD between the inverter and battery (no relay, no SSR etc). Communication control of inverter is a million times more logical than using these massive relays. Having that much current going through any device for years on end is not logical in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Will, this is exactly my intention with this BMS. My issue is that my Giandel inverter doesn’t use a rocker switch for manual on/off, and the remote switch is the same momentary push button and connected via a data cable.

Craig and I were in discussion, and he has a method to tie into that data line to use the remote switch for SSR controlled LVD. He said he will be sharing this out to the forum sometime upcoming.

Do you have any ideas on the Giandel remote switch? Or other like it?

Pacer said:

Will, this is exactly my intention with this BMS. My issue is that my Giandel inverter doesn’t use a rocker switch for manual on/off, and the remote switch is the same momentary push button and connected via a data cable.

Craig and I were in discussion, and he has a method to tie into that data line to use the remote switch for SSR controlled LVD. He said he will be sharing this out to the forum sometime upcoming.

Do you have any ideas on the Giandel remote switch? Or other like it?

Click to expand...

I gave up with the giandel remote control. Some have considered a timer circuit to trick the momentary switch. Yeah, data line for remote switch w/ ssr sounds possible.

How big is your inverter? If you did not spend much on it, I would go for one that has a remote input line. Nearly all victron inverters have that.

Or you can get a FET based BMS instead. Probably cheaper than buying another inverter. Takes seconds to hook up and would work perfect with the giandel.

What is your reasoning for using the chargery over a FET based BMS?

ANT BMS has charge/discharge control and protection at is rated at 320A. And at 48V, that is 15,360 watts. And it is cheap: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something? Is it the 1.2A for balancing perhaps?

I just cannot find a reason people would choose the chargery over other options these days. There are even CAN bus communication BMS from Daly. So many options available these days. Really confuses me why folks are trying to make the chargery work when there are easier/cheaper options available.

Standby consumption of most FET based BMS is .2 mA. That is really tiny. Why mess with these relays?

Will Prowse said:

I gave up with the giandel remote control. Some have considered a timer circuit to trick the momentary switch. Yeah, data line for remote switch w/ ssr sounds possible.

How big is your inverter? If you did not spend much on it, I would go for one that has a remote input line. Nearly all victron inverters have that.

Or you can get a FET based BMS instead. Probably cheaper than buying another inverter. Takes seconds to hook up and would work perfect with the giandel.

What is your reasoning for using the chargery over a FET based BMS?

Click to expand...

I will definitely have some things to think about! The Giandel is the 2000W 24V as recommended in your blueprint.

I chose this Chargery to manage my (still en route) Xuba 280ah cells for my 24v system. To me, it seemed that it would do everything it needed to and could do more, and the price was decent. I know that it may not be everyone’s favorite, but it checked the boxes for me and will hopefully serve me fine.

I did also acquire some hefty TE relays to run it as designed, but upon further brainstorming (and reading here), I would definitely prefer the remote switch option to eliminate the current draw and passing through the relays. But now with my conundrum of the Giandel remote data line, I’ll have to rethink this whole setup. But Craig May share some info that would take care of all my issues!

Will Prowse said:

Is anyone using the Chargery with an SSR for inverter power control? You would have nothing but a shunt and OCPD between the inverter and battery (no relay, no SSR etc). Communication control of inverter is a million times more logical than using these massive relays. Having that much current going through any device for years on end is not logical in my opinion.

Click to expand...

In this thread, @Viron is looking to use the chargery to control his Samlex inverter.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/samlex-remote-switching.6938/#post-73365

It looks like he will be able to directly wire the Chargery output to the control pin on the Samlex (No SSR in between). I believe there are other devices that a can also use the signal directly.

Note: Victron specifically says there must be no potential applied to the control pins, so an SSR would be needed for Victron.

FilterGuy said:

In this thread, @Viron is looking to use the chargery to control his Samlex inverter.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/samlex-remote-switching.6938/#post-73365

It looks like he will be able to directly wire the Chargery output to the control pin on the Samlex (No SSR in between). I believe there are other devices that a can also use the signal directly.

Note: Victron specifically says there must be no potential applied to the control pins, so an SSR would be needed for Victron.

Click to expand...

Yes, victron remote control requires an SSR. Should have stated that, oops. Absolutely true

Very cool that samlex works with direct 12V as signal

Some things can be done when you have ONE Battery Pack and ONE BMS but things change the moment you get more than One Pack & One BMS.
Some folks Inverter ONLY (no charge capability) Maybe they have an SCC, maybe not and use a Grid AC -> DC Charger to charge their battery packs.

If you have 3 packs in a bank attached to an Inverter, you certainly won't have one pack tell the inverter to stop inverting while the other two sit and twiddle their electrons... So now you need an "arbitrator" to read the data from the BMS' and the control devices (SCC & Inverter , Inverter/Charger) externally and play traffic cop in between everything. A Raspberry Pi with ModBus RS232/485 Interfacing can manage it but not everyone is up to the task and there is no generic system out there anyone can just plug in (yet).

I run with a Samlex EVO-4024, it can take signals to stop charging as well as stop inverting. (PAGE-60 EVO-4024 Manual for example) It can communicate with MODBUS or CANBUS (requires NDA to get access to those interfaces). As far as I am aware, all of the EVO family can do so and apparently the PST family can as well with limits. Samlex is not unique in this as most Tir-1 products have such interfacing available to them. Even many Tier-2 products but NO Tier-3 Value stuff does (although a couple seems to have some interfacing now which is recent).

If someone has Constructive Criticisms with possible solutions or workarounds for certain situations / use cases or in general, you should contact Jason Directly through the company website e-mail. Thinking of Filter-guy's comments with diagrams for example.
1) State the problem you see in simple clean English terms.
2) Offer up the solution you may have, again in simple clean English terms.
3) Offer diagrams or part numbers / components (links to same would be good) that you believe will do as suggested.
4) One previous poster (sorry forget who atm) mentioned something about modifying the Delay Board to handle more things, in regards to types of relays that could be used and how... THIS WAS BRILLIANT ! and should be forwarded to Jason directly. BTW FACTOID: The Delay Board was developed because of Jimmy at https://www.azlithium.com/ HE is the one who did some of the video's, like the balancing one and the BMS to Nissan Leaf assembly etc... Good idea and Jason @ Chargery went and made it available...

* clean english terms. = no slang, no colloquialisms, no short cuts or abbreviations like LOL , LMAO or any nonsense. Remember that the English will be translated to Chinese and we all know that translators screw up too easily, so keep the language simple, chatter at minimum and stick to the point. DO NOT send him an email that "This is broken or sucks, fix it" without anything else, that will go directly to spam bin.

Jasons EMail : jasonwang3a AT 163.com (broken up to prevent spambots)
* don't bother if all you want to do is complain, be rude and offer no suggestion or ideas that are feasible or practical.

BTW: a Ponderance for SOME.
Some folks may be in a position to shut off inverters and have no power. Some of us are OFF GRID (increasing daily) and this isn't an option but our systems can auto-start a genset & use the Inverter to charge the batteries on crappy hazy cold & miserable winter days ! (Not everyone lives in Nevada or California eh !) So you know, there are those of us on battery power 7/24/365 and depend on it to be there (more dependable than Big Power Co is too).

Will Prowse said:

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something? Is it the 1.2A for balancing perhaps?

I just cannot find a reason people would choose the chargery over other options these days. There are even CAN bus communication BMS from Daly. So many options available these days. Really confuses me why folks are trying to make the chargery work when there are easier/cheaper options available.

Standby consumption of most FET based BMS is .2 mA. That is really tiny. Why mess with these relays?

Click to expand...

@Will Prowse I am still in the market for a 'final' bms solution but the reason I am not using my ANT anymore is that the max charge supported, 50a. I normally charge at twice that amount. It looks like the one you linked to also is limited to 50a.

Is there a way around that for ANT or Smart BMS options? I have not found any outside of Daly.

Will Prowse said:

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something? Is it the 1.2A for balancing perhaps?

I just cannot find a reason people would choose the chargery over other options these days. There are even CAN bus communication BMS from Daly. So many options available these days. Really confuses me why folks are trying to make the chargery work when there are easier/cheaper options available.

Click to expand...

I would not use a Chargery with relays.

The primary reason I would consider the Chargery is for an application where I want to control the charge source and Discharge source directly rather than use a FET based BMS. As an example, I have a design I am working on where my charge controller and the Inverter can be controlled by a 12 V signal. This allows me to use the Chargery signals to control the two devices and I don't have to worry about de-rating a FET based BMS.
In this particular case, the user wants a SOC display as well so I can use the Chargery display for that function.

Using a Chargery is not significantly better or worse than a FET based BMS for this application. Right now I am planning to use the Chargery but I keep going back and forth on which way to go.

I Wish Chargery worked better for 12V systems. Finding a good 4S Fet Based BMS with low temp disconnect that can handle more than 120A is proving very difficult (or very expensive).

Will Prowse said:

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something?

Click to expand...

For me, it's not a single setting or single special feature, but a combination of features:

• 48V/16S compatibility and hardwired serial comms
• selectable top/bottom/both balancing
• Jason is actively engaged in continuous product development, and listens to customer requests
• The chargery is the best fit for my system, at a great price

I view the Chargery as just another option, but it is not the only option. If it fits well with what I am trying to do with a particular system design, I will use it. If it does not fit well, I will look elsewhere. Getting a mindset of 'this is best' can blind you to better alternatives.

solardad said:

@Will Prowse I am still in the market for a 'final' bms solution but the reason I am not using my ANT anymore is that the max charge supported, 50a. I normally charge at twice that amount. It looks like the one you linked to also is limited to 50a. View attachment 12539

Is there a way around that for ANT or Smart BMS options? I have not found any outside of Daly.

Click to expand...

I've been looking into the Electrodacus SBMS0 and on page 16 of the user manual it states, "The max charge current can be set between 10A minimum and 600A max for SBMS0 ."

I am new to the BMS game so I'm still somewhat confused on how to proceed, but this may be an option. I too charge at 100 amps, so need something to support that and still be within a reasonable price and not super confusing to set up and work with. They are $159 each (Canadian dollars, so about $115 US dollars). Will did a video on them previously here.

Edit - appears my Giandel 4000 watt, 24 volt inverter does not work with the Electrodacus, so that sucks...

FilterGuy said:

I would not use a Chargery with relays.

The primary reason I would consider the Chargery is for an application where I want to control the charge source and Discharge source directly rather than use a FET based BMS. As an example, I have a design I am working on where my charge controller and the Inverter can be controlled by a 12 V signal. This allows me to use the Chargery signals to control the two devices and I don't have to worry about de-rating a FET based BMS.
In this particular case, the user wants a SOC display as well so I can use the Chargery display for that function.

Using a Chargery is not significantly better or worse than a FET based BMS for this application. Right now I am planning to use the Chargery but I keep going back and forth on which way to go.

I Wish Chargery worked better for 12V systems. Finding a good 4S Fet Based BMS with low temp disconnect that can handle more than 120A is proving very difficult (or very expensive).

Click to expand...

Then give up using a BMS and go it in the rough without any last ditch safeties... What the heck it's just batteries & money which everyone can chuck out the door easy peasy ! WHY Have a BMS that cannot shut things down if something goes wrong ? Here's an idea, nail all the doors & windows on your house shut to prevent burglars... Or why bother installing Lug Nuts on the wheels of your car, they are only there to attach the wheels & keep them on, no safety reasons at all... Without RELAYS there is no point, it would show you cell voltage and do passive balancing which can be done with a simple battery monitor and no time wasted on BMS anything.

Seriously... some of the stuff posted is just .... oivey !
This has become absurd, seriously absurd.

Will Prowse said:

Is anyone using the Chargery with an SSR for inverter power control? You would have nothing but a shunt and OCPD between the inverter and battery (no relay, no SSR etc). Communication control of inverter is a million times more logical than using these massive relays. Having that much current going through any device for years on end is not logical in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Steve_S said:

Then give up using a BMS and go it in the rough without any last ditch safeties... What the heck it's just batteries & money which everyone can chuck out the door easy peasy ! WHY Have a BMS that cannot shut things down if something goes wrong ? Here's an idea, nail all the doors & windows on your house shut to prevent burglars... Or why bother installing Lug Nuts on the wheels of your car, they are only there to attach the wheels & keep them on, no safety reasons at all... Without RELAYS there is no point, it would show you cell voltage and do passive balancing which can be done with a simple battery monitor and no time wasted on BMS anything.

Seriously... some of the stuff posted is just .... oivey !
This has become absurd, seriously absurd.

Click to expand...

He isn't saying to use the batteries unprotected. But to use the Chargery to controll the SCC and inverter directly. This is how I do it with my Midnite classic and my samlex EVO. I do not use the AC charging with the EVo but if I did I would never expect for LVD as the AC charging should never allow battery to reach a LVD situation

solardad said:

@Will Prowse I am still in the market for a 'final' bms solution but the reason I am not using my ANT anymore is that the max charge supported, 50a. I normally charge at twice that amount. It looks like the one you linked to also is limited to 50a. View attachment 12539

Is there a way around that for ANT or Smart BMS options? I have not found any outside of Daly.

Click to expand...

Which one do you have? They have different sizes and you can change the charge rate in the settings.

And I wouldn't use HVD on most BMS anyways. Just run charge controller direct and set absorption manually with a coulomb meter. I trust a high quality SCC over a Chinese BMS hvd anyday. Electrolyte degradation doesn't occur till 4.2v per cell for LiFePO4 anyways. HVD really isn't that crucial, especially if top balanced and as mentioned earlier, manually setting absorption

Will Prowse said:

Difficult to detect without data logging?? Everything you posted can be deduced pretty easily with a cell monitor with IR measurement, and using an infrared heat gun for a few minutes. If something was wrong, you can easily spot it with a capacity test or feeling the cells with your hand. It really is not that difficult.

With all that said, data logging is fun. And useful for diagnosis of problems. But all of these things mentioned can be found within minutes with basic electrical/temperature probes. But yeah, to each their own. I see why some like it.

Click to expand...

One would want do perform verification and validation over the entire spectrum of operation. The charge curve of LiFePO4 cells are somewhat complex, consisting of a lower and upper knee and a reasonable linear response in between. With data logging, all that is presentable in one view. You are talking about STATIC measurements. You are taking measurements at one point in time. Since battery charge and discharge curves are dynamic, you are missing quite a bit of data. I detected several issues with the Chargery settings that you would not have found in minutes if at all.

There are so many possibilities with what you can do with logged data. For instance, at a constant charge current, I can calculate the equivalent capacitance of the battery in a matter of seconds. Capacitance is be equivalent to the AH rating. Now I don't have to totally charge and discharge the battery to check capacity over the years. You might be able to perform all the tests and data gathering manually, but that's extremely time consuming. I just connect the data logger, turn on some loads now and then (or charging sources), and let it run for however long I want. Later all the data is at my finger tips in an Excel file. It couldn't be much simpler. It's not about data logging being fun. It's about getting the total job done in an efficient manner.

Will Prowse said:

Which one do you have? They have different sizes and you can change the charge rate in the settings.

And I wouldn't use HVD on most BMS anyways. Just run charge controller direct and set absorption manually with a coulomb meter. I trust a high quality SCC over a Chinese BMS hvd anyday. Electrolyte degradation doesn't occur till 4.2v per cell for LiFePO4 anyways. HVD really isn't that crucial, especially if top balanced and as mentioned earlier, manually setting absorption

Click to expand...

@Will Prowse I bought this one last year from ICGOGO https://www.ebay.com/itm/192713045620 200a version.

My ANT BMS is disconnected now so I can not check the settings but mine is similar to the one that you posted and has a stated max charge rate of only 50a. Were you able to confirm you can change the charge rate higher than 50a on yours? If so what model, link?

cass3825 said:

For me, it's not a single setting or single special feature, but a combination of features:

• 48V/16S compatibility and hardwired serial comms
• selectable top/bottom/both balancing
• Jason is actively engaged in continuous product development, and listens to customer requests
• The chargery is the best fit for my system, at a great price

Click to expand...

For me all of those applied and one more:

I was able to get it in just three days.

I am genetically deficient of patience and the BMS got to me before I did anything stupid with my new cells ?

Cal said:

One would want do perform verification and validation over the entire spectrum of operation. The charge curve of LiFePO4 cells are somewhat complex, consisting of a lower and upper knee and a reasonable linear response in between. With data logging, all that is presentable in one view. You are talking about STATIC measurements. You are taking measurements at one point in time. Since battery charge and discharge curves are dynamic, you are missing quite a bit of data. I detected several issues with the Chargery settings that you would not have found in minutes if at all.

There are so many possibilities with what you can do with logged data. For instance, at a constant charge current, I can calculate the equivalent capacitance of the battery in a matter of seconds. Capacitance is be equivalent to the AH rating. Now I don't have to totally charge and discharge the battery to check capacity over the years. You might be able to perform all the tests and data gathering manually, but that's extremely time consuming. I just connect the data logger, turn on some loads now and then (or charging sources), and let it run for however long I want. Later all the data is at my finger tips in an Excel file. It couldn't be much simpler. It's not about data logging being fun. It's about getting the total job done in an efficient manner.

Click to expand...

What settings did you change? I still don't get the point. Why do you care about the capacitance? When has that figure changed anything in your design?

Missing data for what? Cycling bandwidth? Even though it's dynamic, it doesn't make a big difference because with LiFePO4, the voltage curve becomes quite dramatic at high and low SOC, so using normal voltage cut offs work fine. What is your goal exactly? Not sure what you are trying to control and what the point is.

And yes, static measurements because these are simple systems. There are no signal control systems or anything that we need to plot data over time. It's just a bunch of voltage sensitive switching and converting. What are you trying to optimize? If it works, then it's fine. Can you give actual examples of optimizing your system with your data logging? Have IR and capacitance really been an issue for you?

If you are running high c rates, then I would understand why you need to log this stuff. But for solar? I just don't see the point. You are trickle charging it. Changing the voltage cut offs for various SOC does not need data logging. Just watch SOC rise to what you wish to cycle to, then log highest cell voltage and set the absorption on SCC.

solardad said:

@Will Prowse I bought this one last year from ICGOGO https://www.ebay.com/itm/192713045620 200a version.

My ANT BMS is disconnected now so I can not check the settings but mine is similar to the one that you posted and has a stated max charge rate of only 50a. Were you able to confirm you can change the charge rate higher than 50a on yours? If so what model, link?

Click to expand...

Any common port BMS should handle high charge rate. Usually it's separate port that is limited. Hook it up to your pack with just balance lead and change the settings. Should work fine

Will Prowse said:

Why exactly do people prefer the chargery over SBMS or ANT BMS? I can't think of a single setting or special feature to make someone choose the Chargery. Am I missing something? Is it the 1.2A for balancing perhaps?

I just cannot find a reason people would choose the chargery over other options these days. There are even CAN bus communication BMS from Daly. So many options available these days. Really confuses me why folks are trying to make the chargery work when there are easier/cheaper options available.

Standby consumption of most FET based BMS is .2 mA. That is really tiny. Why mess with these relays?

Click to expand...

I don't want the inverter load current .... or the charge current... to be going thru to be going thru a relay or a FET. I also want to be controlling charge and load independently. The only thing I want to have in the charge and load circuit is manual shut-offs and fuses. It just seems to me that it is not a good idea to be controlling the high current DC side of things .... Can the Ant do that?

I want to be able to control the devices with a remote signal. I will be doing my inverter like you did in your video with the SSR relay inline with the power switch. I haven't chosen my SCC .... yet, but I will be controlling it and the AC charger in a similar way.

GMB said:

I've been looking into the Electrodacus SBMS0 and on page 16 of the user manual it states, "The max charge current can be set between 10A minimum and 600A max for SBMS0 ."

Click to expand...

Charge current is a "target setting" for the SBMS and is ultimately dependent on your solar array(s) paired against the ideal charge rate of your pack chemistry. If you employ the use of the "Dual PV" capability of the SBMS0 you can attain this target rate via gating your PV sub-arrays using the EXT-IO options that are available. For LFP, it's been suggested to charge for ultimate longevity from 0.2C-0.3C.

Dacian refers to this as the "panels are cheaper than batteries" argument.

Cal said:

One would want do perform verification and validation over the entire spectrum of operation. The charge curve of LiFePO4 cells are somewhat complex, consisting of a lower and upper knee and a reasonable linear response in between. With data logging, all that is presentable in one view. You are talking about STATIC measurements. You are taking measurements at one point in time. Since battery charge and discharge curves are dynamic, you are missing quite a bit of data. I detected several issues with the Chargery settings that you would not have found in minutes if at all.

There are so many possibilities with what you can do with logged data. For instance, at a constant charge current, I can calculate the equivalent capacitance of the battery in a matter of seconds. Capacitance is be equivalent to the AH rating. Now I don't have to totally charge and discharge the battery to check capacity over the years. You might be able to perform all the tests and data gathering manually, but that's extremely time consuming. I just connect the data logger, turn on some loads now and then (or charging sources), and let it run for however long I want. Later all the data is at my finger tips in an Excel file. It couldn't be much simpler. It's not about data logging being fun. It's about getting the total job done in an efficient manner.

Click to expand...

How large is your system? Are you using used cells? Mismatched IR cells are usually not a problem for solar because c rate so low. Maybe I am misunderstanding your application. Or are you using used cells on a small pack to power high surge HF inverters? What is your c rate?

Anyone see this contactor: https://www.batteryspace.com/relaye-mechcontactor500actrl-v9-36dcvol-rtg12-900dcforbms.aspx

1.7W hold current. Seems like a massive upgrade compared to the chargery relay