diy solar

diy solar

Schneider XW pro 6k vs. Eg4 18k - need help deciding

Got a side question. Maybe you can answer since you have lot of experience with XW. I think from what I have read from other boards, TOU is supported but there might be some tweaks I need to do. Not as simple as turning it on/off
I was a lead hardware designer ( remote ) for the xw mppt 60/150 in 2005 and had a XW-6048 at my home lab, but haven't had one since 2012 so I'm not current in what schnieder is doing with updates. This picture was part of the home lab I had taken in 2006.

Home Lab 2006 4.jpg

Would I be close in saying that by the time you have bought everything you need to make a single Schneider XW PRO 6848 setup that has the exact function of an AIO, you could just buy 2 AIO ?

The concept for AIO I like, I actual have a pair of the Solis RHI 5G's, but I've found over 2 dozen software bugs, most never fixed and Solis middle fingers all 5G owners a year ago saying they have "moved on" working on the now 1+ year late S6.

This is how China works, and for ALL brands. I did the Solis as at the time you could get them for ~1300 usd and I wanted to play with what I thought would be the future, high voltage ( 400V ) ESS. All I learned is the industry is worse now the a decade ago with the amount of bugs, bad support, it is like 2002 all over again for me but I've managed to make it work how I want by using external controls via modbus.

So sure the flavor of the month might be sexy, heck even useful, but you can bet zero support in a year or two whey the have moved on too what is next.

If your powering your home and have no grid backup, having separate boxes for features is a huge plus, this hasn't changed in the last 20 years. I'm even considering going back to the XW as I really want closer to whole home and while HV batteries as much better for wiring, it's a closed market with UL9540.
 
I've had an xw+. Running continuous since 2019. Its only failed on me once and that was my fault. I let it overheat.

It takes everything I throw at it and just shrugs.

My biggest complaint is the added cost of pdp's and conduut boxes. I've been looking at every alternative for my new system, but I keep coming back the the xw pro.
 
The XW pro supports time of use, as I mentioned in another thread.

One thing that *is* lacking, is the ability to have multiple TOU windows.
My energy provider has TOU as an opt-in program (it's not the default), and for 6 months, the TOU is 1 window a day, from noon to 9pm. But then for 6 months out of the year, it splits it into 2 windows a day (6am-10am, and then 6pm-10pm)
Got it. All I care is a single TOU
The second one, the XW won't do out of the box. That said, I've seen some others (400bird, and gxmnow) that are using 3rd party things to control the XW. 400bird is using a raspberry pi IIRC, and gxmnow is using a PLC.


As for your larger question, I have a single XW pro. it'll start my 4ton AC (without soft start) but, only if nothing else is drawing much power. After it's started, it can run other loads too..
(y)
The 18kpv looks interesting, I won't lie. But I *really* like that the schnieder is so modular. if 1 part fails, the rest keeps working while you aer securing a replacement or fixing it. inverter fails? batteries are still charged by charge controller. CC failed? the inverter can still harness the power from the batteries.. etc etc. You'd need 2 of them to provide the same continuous power as the 18kpv, but I'd personally look at it more like "redundancy" in case 1 inverter ever failed. I like redundancy and modularity.. the 18kpv DOES look simple to wire in, though.
 
The XW pro supports time of use, as I mentioned in another thread.

One thing that *is* lacking, is the ability to have multiple TOU windows.
My energy provider has TOU as an opt-in program (it's not the default), and for 6 months, the TOU is 1 window a day, from noon to 9pm. But then for 6 months out of the year, it splits it into 2 windows a day (6am-10am, and then 6pm-10pm)

The second one, the XW won't do out of the box. That said, I've seen some others (400bird, and gxmnow) that are using 3rd party things to control the XW. 400bird is using a raspberry pi IIRC, and gxmnow is using a PLC.


As for your larger question, I have a single XW pro. it'll start my 4ton AC (without soft start) but, only if nothing else is drawing much power. After it's started, it can run other loads too..

The 18kpv looks interesting, I won't lie. But I *really* like that the schnieder is so modular. if 1 part fails, the rest keeps working while you aer securing a replacement or fixing it. inverter fails? batteries are still charged by charge controller. CC failed? the inverter can still harness the power from the batteries.. etc etc. You'd need 2 of them to provide the same continuous power as the 18kpv, but I'd personally look at it more like "redundancy" in case 1 inverter ever failed. I like redundancy and modularity.. the 18kpv DOES look simple to wire in, though.
we send you a new one by parcel and refurb your old one if that happens year 1-10. schneider is so heavy freight has to be used
 
hi,
I am in the process switching my current victron 3k units to either the eg4 18k or schneider 6k. I know the eg4 18k is an all in one unit but I am wary of buying new products. My main aim is to support couple of air conditioners with soft starts. Can the Eg4 18k handle them (4 ton & 3.5 ton)? LRA of 3.5 ton is 30 amps with softstart. I have not seen any load tests for the 18k. I have seen the sol-ark fail on inductive tests so not considering it for now.

thank you
 
Why hasn't Schneider released higher wattage units say 12k xwpro's in all this time? Too heavy or what? It doesn't seem like they have any interests in evolving this inverter or making it easier for DIY folks. I'd think if they upped the wattage and had a built in pdp with all the breakers etc , making it a easier and inspection passing install like solark they'd be more competitive in the diy market. Outback seems to be on this path.
 
Why hasn't Schneider released higher wattage units say 12k xwpro's in all this time? Too heavy or what? It doesn't seem like they have any interests in evolving this inverter or making it easier for DIY folks. I'd think if they upped the wattage and had a built in pdp with all the breakers etc , making it a easier and inspection passing install like solark they'd be more competitive in the diy market. Outback seems to be on this path.

Just my personal opinion is If you need more power, stack , more units. It has worked for 20 years and is stronger now than ever.

Making a new design an getting all the required listings can turn into easily 8 figure effort. The XW program has over 30 to 40 engineers on it, took over to 4 years and then support for as long as the product is sold. It was also funded partly by Sandia National Labs, without that it would not have happened.

So let's say a company invest 20-50 million ( probably low estimate ), what is the ROI and what functional difference does it make to an end-user?

Lastely, DYI isn't full home power systems, that's a market for 3rd party installers. While there people I count in the dozens on this forum that can tackle complex projects, it isn't a business case for investment to support a segment focused on only cost.

My 1.5 cents ...
 
I have two 12K’s and too 6500ex’s. GO WITH SCHNEIDER. I am as soon as one of these fail.
 
Just my personal opinion is If you need more power, stack , more units. It has worked for 20 years and is stronger now than ever.

Making a new design an getting all the required listings can turn into easily 8 figure effort. The XW program has over 30 to 40 engineers on it, took over to 4 years and then support for as long as the product is sold. It was also funded partly by Sandia National Labs, without that it would not have happened.

So let's say a company invest 20-50 million ( probably low estimate ), what is the ROI and what functional difference does it make to an end-user?

Lastely, DYI isn't full home power systems, that's a market for 3rd party installers. While there people I count in the dozens on this forum that can tackle complex projects, it isn't a business case for investment to support a segment focused on only cost.

My 1.5 cents ...
I don't think just because it works is a valid excuse to not innovate and evolve a product. I don't think they are reinventing the wheel here by just adding more capacity, better software functions and a sheet metal enclosure for the breakers. I have no idea how much it would take to get it retested and UL certified but companies do it all the time as they introduce more products. Solark and outback does it and they are a peasant compared to the size and scope of a multi international company like Schneider. For those of us that don't have wall space or perhaps we just want one or two inverters and not 6 or so it makes sense. Personally I'd like to see them offer a higher input battery voltage like outback and Aims is doing now.

Just my opinion but thanks for your feedback..it's appreciated.
 
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The XW has been in the feild for 15 years, well proven product. Things with less than a year, no one knows if they are quality or not.

I personally would not recommend anything without a few years of history, there is a flood of products being introduced and year later discontinued, which will make support non-existent ( repairs, bugs fixes etc. )
Lol case in point, I bought a Schneider context 4024 with the same thinking, just stack on more when the need arises, but from the best... then Schneider decided to stop all parallel support for the 4024 and upgrade firmware to make it impossible to stack the newer models.

Don't trust any name brand based solely on brand. The xw is a good product, hell my 4024 is still a good inverter, it's just no longer the inverter I bought. Problem with using Schneider products is that they went with the Gillette model, nothing's included and every little component is another $500.00 com box, gen start box, battery monitor, charge controller and only Schneider equipment will communicate with it...
 
sheet metal enclosure for the breakers
Schneider already offers that, in two sizes.

.. then Schneider decided to stop all parallel support for the 4024 and upgrade firmware to make it impossible to stack the newer models.
Yeah, that hurts for sure.
Problem with using Schneider products is that they went with the Gillette model, nothing's included and every little component is another $500.00 com box, gen start box, battery monitor, charge controller and only Schneider equipment will communicate with it...
Is it a feature or a bug? If they included all that stuff in one box, it would cost more than just the inverter. But what about the person who only wants the inverter? Now that buyer is paying extra for features they don't want.

Or maybe a persin who doesn't care for a battery monitor or generator start? Lol, those are bad examples because they both could be implemented into the Insight without any extra hardware other than a shunt.
 
Schneider already offers that, in two sizes.


Yeah, that hurts for sure.

Is it a feature or a bug? If they included all that stuff in one box, it would cost more than just the inverter. But what about the person who only wants the inverter? Now that buyer is paying extra for features they don't want.

Or maybe a persin who doesn't care for a battery monitor or generator start? Lol, those are bad examples because they both could be implemented into the Insight without any extra hardware other than a shunt.
I don't mind that the extra components are stand alone, I mind how much they charge for the simplest of components, because they know they've got you.
 
Why hasn't Schneider released higher wattage units say 12k xwpro's in all this time? Too heavy or what?
I would say an 8-10kW unit would be a great sweet spot, if it can handle overload proportional to the 6848.

My only complaint about the XW-Pro (on paper) is just how much wall space a complete system takes up. I was approaching 8' for XW-Pro and 4' for an AIO-- either SolArk or EG4-18k. The XW-Pro seems to work pretty well with an external controller, which is too much work for most people, but still has glitches.

I also believe Schneider is putting energy into its solar line, but they historically have much longer product cycles.

But when it comes down to decision time... I'd bet 90% I will end up with an AIO.
 
I think Schneider are coming out with a new product that might be an AIO battery/inverter/load management system. I saw something at the Miami show but there were no technical details whatsoever.
Another company called Franklin had a similar type of system where the inverter and battery was all in one unit and then there was a load control/shedding center that I never got to understand whether it replaces your breaker panel or is meant to be a critical loads panel.
Anyway UL9540A is definitely pushing the industry towards complete solutions which will not be DIY friendly.
 
I have been running two Schneider XW pros for about four months and love them. I upgraded from two EG4 6500s. I can tell you, with those units I was always worried about overloading or tripping, but that isn't even in my mind now with the XWs. They just work. Certainly more expensive and complicated to install, but completely worth it. I wish Prowse would review them.

This convinced me to buy Schneider when I was on the fence. Wish he had videos comparing newer units as well.

 
I don't think just because it works is a valid excuse to not innovate and evolve a product. I don't think they are reinventing the wheel here by just adding more capacity, better software functions and a sheet metal enclosure for the breakers. I have no idea how much it would take to get it retested and UL certified but companies do it all the time as they introduce more products. Solark and outback does it and they are a peasant compared to the size and scope of a multi international company like Schneider. For those of us that don't have wall space or perhaps we just want one or two inverters and not 6 or so it makes sense. Personally I'd like to see them offer a higher input battery voltage like outback and Aims is doing now.

Just my opinion but thanks for your feedback..it's appreciated.

*Edit* After reading this, it kinda sounds like a rant. Apologies, that was not the intent. the TL;DR is that there are a ton of options on the market. And this is a good thing.

--- original content before the edit ---

There are two sides to every coin. I agree that "just because it works is a valid excuse to not innovate.." to some degree. True innovation is great indeed. However, what you are asking for isn't really innovation, is it? If there are already products on the market that have those things, then it's not innovation, it's duplication.

Everything you've mentioned, they already have.. (with the exception of higher voltage DC) in a modular system that some people actually prefer. (I know I certainly do)
you want the 8-10k "model"? expand. you don't have to rip and replace an entire system for additional capacity. Several AIO's either don't support stacking, or it's promised in a future update (I think the sol-ark can stack now, but for several years, it wasn't an option)

As an example, the newer 18kpv AIO seems pretty great. In a few years, if I ever need to start over (ie, moving to a new property or something), I may evaluate it seriously to see what it's track record is. But as it stands right now, I have absolutely zero complaints about the hardware in my schneider equipment, and wouldn't hesitate to select, buy, install, and use it again. I honestly wonder how many people can say that with the hardware they've selected if they were being honest (and not just defending it because they bought it)

Heck, even david poz, who has spent much of his youtube career doing budget solar to varying degrees of success.. eventually got an XW pro. He made a handful of videos about it, but I haven't seen one in a long time (though he mentions in other videos that he's still using them) and if I had to guess, it's because youtube content of "this thing just works. and works. and works some more.. oh, and it's still working" would be completely boring.. so he's had to move onto other content. He's got a BUNCH of comments on his videos about him forgetting his userbase, and the "budget" aspect of his channel.. but I'm a firm believer in "buy once, cry once". Yes, Schneider is more expensive than many all in ones. Yes, some of the parts are overpriced (insight, and the PDP/Mini-PDP for sure) but, you don't buy it and then replace it in a couple years. You hang that stuff on the wall, and unless you just *like* to tinker, you leave it alone.. for years at a time.



At the end of the day, there are a ton of products and vendors in the space. Each has their own pros/cons and value propositions. The reality is, asking a company to just be like all of the other companies actually stifles innovation, it doesn't encourage it.
 
I think Schneider are coming out with a new product that might be an AIO battery/inverter/load management system.

is it this one?

I saw something at the Miami show but there were no technical details whatsoever.
Another company called Franklin had a similar type of system where the inverter and battery was all in one unit and then there was a load control/shedding center that I never got to understand whether it replaces your breaker panel or is meant to be a critical loads panel.
Anyway UL9540A is definitely pushing the industry towards complete solutions which will not be DIY friendly.
 
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