Generator in the garage - Thoughts?

Starex · Oct 4, 2023

Zapper77 said:
I've seen people weld a threaded pipe fitting to the exhaust port.

Most internal combustion engines are designed under assumption of back pressure on exhaust in the range of normal atmospheric pressure.
Extending exhaust pipe can result in a higher concentration of co in the exhaust, overheating, engine shut down or failure.

Hedges · Oct 4, 2023

Oldphile said:
Why not crack your garage door for supply air?

Even with the door wide open, it is possible for the CO to back up into the home. Without so much as 5 sides around a generator, just being outside near a window, this has happened.

Portable Generator Placement for Safety | Norwall

Avoid Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. CO is Deadly Dangerous. An odorless and colorless byproduct of internal combustion engines and carbon based fuels.

blog.norwall.com

"In Newark, New Jersey, two nineteen-year-old girls were killed by carbon monoxide from a generator placed outside their apartment window."

Although I don't know for certain, I attribute a splitting headache to sleeping in my car (ski area parking lot) adjacent to a motor home with generator running.

Unlike cars with O2 sensor and closed-loop fuel injection plus catalytic converter, portable generators emit high levels of CO.

Also, even though you might duct exhaust outside, there is blowby past the rings. Old engines just let that vent through crankcase breather but newer models do such that into engine. Still, you don't want any fumes from around the engine getting into house. I think engine needs to be kept in a negative pressure enclosure with air exhausted where it will leave the area.

Watts Happening · Oct 4, 2023

Hedges said:
Even with the door wide open, it is possible for the CO to back up into the home. Without so much as 5 sides around a generator, just being outside near a window, this has happened.

Portable Generator Placement for Safety | Norwall

Avoid Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. CO is Deadly Dangerous. An odorless and colorless byproduct of internal combustion engines and carbon based fuels.

blog.norwall.com

"In Newark, New Jersey, two nineteen-year-old girls were killed by carbon monoxide from a generator placed outside their apartment window."

Although I don't know for certain, I attribute a splitting headache to sleeping in my car (ski area parking lot) adjacent to a motor home with generator running.

Unlike cars with O2 sensor and closed-loop fuel injection plus catalytic converter, portable generators emit high levels of CO.

Also, even though you might duct exhaust outside, there is blowby past the rings. Old engines just let that vent through crankcase breather but newer models do such that into engine. Still, you don't want any fumes from around the engine getting into house. I think engine needs to be kept in a negative pressure enclosure with air exhausted where it will leave the area.

In both instances you’re explaining a scenario with obvious ventilation INTO the occupied space.

I’m CLEARLY not going to place it outside an open window. Hell, it’s winter in this example, no windows will be open. Nothing from outside will be venting to inside.

Your RV scenario seems the exact same to me, powered ventilation into your vehicle from exhaust gasses outside.

Sure, old engines can have blow by. This is a brand new generator, that does indeed have crankcase ventilation back into the motor. It will be running on propane which as previously stated emits 60% less carbon monoxide, it will be exhausted outside completely. It will have an air intake (even if it didn’t this would actually HELP keep carbon monoxide from the house as it would create negative pressure. Which could be argued as eating up oxygen from inside).

We’ll also NOT be committing the same mistake as the two above scenarios and sleeping while running this setup.

I’d also bet neither of those scenarios had any form of CO alarm.

All in all, those don’t seem to be apples to apples. Completely different fuel sources, while sleeping, without any protective measures (detectors), direct ventilation into the occupied space etc.

xjaw4 · Oct 4, 2023

Wiring a CO detector to a relay to auto shutoff the generator could be done for the price of an interconnectable co detector a relay small battery and could be a life saver no mater where the generator is located.

If the goal of the project is to reduce noise and prevent theft I think there are other ways to accomplish the same goals with less risks and have other benefits like using the exhaust to heat water for bathing / space heating as an example.

How much fuel does the generator use per hr? How much fuel do you have on hand? An extended outage may not look like we expect it would. Puerto Rico was without power for months, if anyone here lived through that and has some lessons learned I'd like to hear them in case such a thing happens in my neck of the woods.

Hedges · Oct 4, 2023

Watts Happening said:
Your RV scenario seems the exact same to me, powered ventilation into your vehicle from exhaust gasses outside.

No powered ventilation. Just sleeping in my car, and ambient exhaust from neighboring parking spot.
Don't know for sure it was CO.

Watts Happening said:
I’d also bet neither of those scenarios had any form of CO alarm.

No, they didn't.

First step would be to close your garage door and release a smelly gas into the garage. Test with your nose to see if you detect it in house.

Can you situate the generator somewhere outside with no possibility of gas intrusion and bury a wire (not conduit)?

Watts Happening · Oct 4, 2023

xjaw4 said:
Wiring a CO detector to a relay to auto shutoff the generator could be done for the price of an interconnectable co detector a relay small battery and could be a life saver no mater where the generator is located.

If the goal of the project is to reduce noise and prevent theft I think there are other ways to accomplish the same goals with less risks and have other benefits like using the exhaust to heat water for bathing / space heating as an example.

How much fuel does the generator use per hr? How much fuel do you have on hand? An extended outage may not look like we expect it would. Puerto Rico was without power for months, if anyone here lived through that and has some lessons learned I'd like to hear them in case such a thing happens in my neck of the woods.

I’m not against wiring something like that in, I just REALLY don’t expect to need to do any of this. We’re not in a hurricane area, generally speaking our biggest threat is winter storms and even then, our utilities are underground and we have an exceptionally reliable power grid. I’ve lived here my entire life and it’s never been an issue.

I can’t think of a power outage of more than 2 hours in the last 10 years. The only 1-2 hour outage was from a car crash a few miles away.

That said, I tend to over prepare. Again we are pretty solid on solar, with a decent battery backup.

The generator in question is this: https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/200962-2500-watt-dual-fuel-inverter/

It claims up to 34 hours of run time on a 20 pound BBQ tank. Rough math that equates to 14kWh per tank.

I’ve got probably 10x that on hand.

Watts Happening · Oct 4, 2023

Hedges said:
No powered ventilation. Just sleeping in my car, and ambient exhaust from neighboring parking spot.
Don't know for sure it was CO.

No, they didn't.

First step would be to close your garage door and release a smelly gas into the garage. Test with your nose to see if you detect it in house.

Can you situate the generator somewhere outside with no possibility of gas intrusion and bury a wire (not conduit)?

View attachment 170691

I’ve done a really crappy version of this test and painted/stained things in the garage with no ventilation, other than me walking in and out through the man door and boy, my wife will let you know it stinks lol.

SamDeleted · Oct 4, 2023

Hedges said:
RVs have generators in a compartment. Is it 100% sealed from living space?

Cars have engines , and you're sat in a metal box with it .

Hedges · Oct 4, 2023

Engineered controls (ventilation, CO alarm) are preferred over Administrative controls (try not to fall asleep).
But elimination of the hazard is preferred.

Hierarchy of hazard controls - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hedges · Oct 4, 2023

SamG340 said:
Cars have engines , and you're sat in a metal box with it .

Firewall may or may not be well sealed. Exhaust gas can back up inside.
Tends to be a problem with leaky exhaust system under car, also poorly running engine and older models designed to run rich.

People die from carbon monoxide in cars, especially if they sleep with engine running. Not sleeping it could happen too, but you should notice stinky exhaust and usually you're driving.

Relatively small but not entirely insignificant number of deaths simply due to operating vehicle outdoors. e.g. 1.5 per year in New Mexico.

Deaths from Motor-Vehicle Related Unintentional Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Colorado, 1996, New Mexico, 1980 1995, and United States, 1979 1992

"During 1980 1995, a total of 56 motor-vehicle related CO poisoning deaths occurred in New Mexico: 24 (43%) were caused by the combination of a faulty exhaust system and an inadequately ventilated passenger compartment; 22 (39%), by operation of a motor vehicle inside an improperly ventilated structure; and 10 (18%), by the use of a fuel-burning heating device inside an inadequately ventilated passenger compartment. During this period, the number of deaths increased sharply during October and peaked during December January"

Watts Happening · Oct 4, 2023

This settles it, I’m going to make a video of it for YouTube.

You just wait, this will have all the incredible cinematic features of a high budget Hollywood Blockbuster film.

“Here I am in my garage trying to see if I can survive the 79cc propane apocalypse”

SamDeleted · Oct 4, 2023

Hedges said:
Firewall may or may not be well sealed.

Some more sealed than others ?

Quattrohead · Oct 4, 2023

Police Ford Explorers were gassing the officers to sleep whilst sat idle with the engine running. they had to modify the tail pipes. Or was it a doughnut sugar coma ?
Anyway, you seem determined to do it, just don't knock yourself out.

Tulex · Oct 4, 2023

Really boils down to how good you feel about it. As mentioned, RVs have them. Ours was right under the bed. But there was also a sticker on the wall that said not to sleep with it running. Can it be done safely? Probably. Can something, anything fail? Yes.
Some people on here are surprised that some of us put our batteries in our houses, some of us think nothing of it.

Watts Happening · Oct 4, 2023

Quattrohead said:
Police Ford Explorers were gassing the officers to sleep whilst sat idle with the engine running. they had to modify the tail pipes. Or was it a doughnut sugar coma ?
Anyway, you seem determined to do it, just don't knock yourself out.

I totally get where you're coming from. I hope to never need to do it. But, I think it's worth testing to see what the real world numbers look like.

Some points, not to be taken as arguments, just considerations:

Ford Explorer is likely a 5,000cc engine, burning gasoline, with powered ventilation blowing air into the vehicle from outside.

Zero detectors, long periods of sitting in that scenario in a small box of nasty air. Certainly seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

I'm looking at maybe, once in a blue moon, considering running a 79cc propane powered generator just above idle in a large room, with all exhaust being sent outside away from any inlet to the home will using redundant detectors and ensuring I'm awake/alert and completely aware of the scenario at hand.

Heck, I'd like to think even talking about this idea at all shows how serious I am about mitigating risks.

I have two Wi-Fi connected CO detectors on the way for purposes of the test, along with existing detectors in the home.

Amazon.com

rhino · Oct 4, 2023

Since you are worried about other people hearing your generator running have you tested how loud it sounds from outside with it running inside the garage?

PWH · Oct 4, 2023

I run my 4500i generator in my garage primarily due to extreme cold in winter that kills the battery for the remote start. I've been doing this for 5+ years with no issues. The generator runs for 4-5 hours every night in winter. I also have a 11kw diesel generator in a generator shed that runs my shop.

What I would recommend is you port out the exhaust otherwise your garage and all the items in it will reek of gas fumes. I just used an aluminum 6" to 3" reducer pipe and drilled a hole for it in line with my generators exhaust. The wide end of the pipe lines up to the generator exhaust but is not connected directly to it. Works very effectively to remove the exhaust from the garage.

Hedges · Oct 4, 2023

Watts Happening said:
This settles it, I’m going to make a video of it for YouTube.

You just wait, this will have all the incredible cinematic features of a high budget Hollywood Blockbuster film.

“Here I am in my garage trying to see if I can survive the 79cc propane apocalypse”

Livestream. Then you can get "likes" etc.

Watts Happening said:
I have two Wi-Fi connected CO detectors on the way for purposes of the test, along with existing detectors in the home.

Amazon.com

Does the system "fail safe" or "fail deadly"?
Your live could be hanging on by a thread.

Off the shelf generators these days have CO shutdown. At least start with that, then add belt and suspenders.

Watts Happening said:
Heck, I'd like to think even talking about this idea at all shows how serious I am about mitigating risks.

Mitigate ... or Eliminate?

Watts Happening said:
Ford Explorer is likely a 5,000cc engine, burning gasoline, with powered ventilation blowing air into the vehicle from outside.

I'm looking at maybe, once in a blue moon, considering running a 79cc propane powered generator just above idle in a large room

Do propane generators emit carbon monoxide? - Sky Stream Energy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y-2eGDClqw

www.skystreamenergy.com

I think that shows 69 ppm from a portable generator.
Modern car might be 1 ppm. (the Ford referred to above probably not modern.)

79 cc x 69 ppm = 5451 e-6 cc of CO per revolution.
5000 cc x 1 ppm = 5000 e-6 cc of CO per revolution.

And the award goes to ... the portable generator.
Besides more total CO, a greater (and harmful) concentration even without recirculation.

Carbon monoxide poisoning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You'll probably survive. Most people do. ??

Watts Happening · Oct 4, 2023

Hedges said:
Livestream. Then you can get "likes" etc.

Does the system "fail safe" or "fail deadly"?
Your live could be hanging on by a thread.

Off the shelf generators these days have CO shutdown. At least start with that, then add belt and suspenders.

Mitigate ... or Eliminate?

Do propane generators emit carbon monoxide? - Sky Stream Energy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y-2eGDClqw

www.skystreamenergy.com

I think that shows 69 ppm from a portable generator.
Modern car might be 1 ppm. (the Ford referred to above probably not modern.)

79 cc x 69 ppm = 5451 e-6 cc of CO per revolution.
5000 cc x 1 ppm = 5000 e-6 cc of CO per revolution.

And the award goes to ... the portable generator.
Besides more total CO, a greater (and harmful) concentration even without recirculation.

Carbon monoxide poisoning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You'll probably survive. Most people do. ??

Currently there is no "system" to fail safe or deadly. I sincerely appreciate your arguments to keep me and my family safe, there is no question there.

Mitigate vs eliminate, I see where you're going with that, I'd just point out there is always SOME risk in everything we do. Heck, you could catch fire pumping gas, it happens, it's not common but happens.

In relation to the link about cars vs generators, I'm finding VERY conflicting information from an Iowa State University article I've screenshotted here: https://www.abe.iastate.edu/extensi...erter found,ppm after the catalytic converter)

I struggle to use that link to "sky stream energy" as a source, they have pretty conflicting information on that page. I would generally agree with the information here:

They have other decent information below that, then it leads to saying you shouldn't run one indoors (generally agree obviously):

Finally, they post this, which kinda steps on everything else they've said, notice the "indoors and outdoors" part:

I feel like as a whole this entire idea is predicated on the fact that there is a plan. It's not just whipping out a generator and hoping for the best. All plans can have holes, I completely understand that fact. I feel with redundant alarms, exhaust vented outside, only running while away and removed by two doors and only in extreme scenarios where I can be in control of all factors, it can be done safely.

Shimmy · Oct 4, 2023

Watts Happening said:
I agree with back pressure, however I should mention (if I already haven’t) this generator would be running on propane and my transition to another exhaust system would be upsized. Outlet is .75”, I’d transition to a minimum of 1”, possibly 1.5”. Length of exhaust run wouldn’t be more than maybe 10 feet.

10 feet horizontally with bends is a lot worse than 10 feet up vertically. I meant gummed up euphamistically, didn't mean just carbon buildup; there are a whole host of potential issues.

I have a similar concern; for me a quiet propane generator on the back patio during the day is going to be quiet enough, but I don't have to worry about cold weather. If I did, I might put it inside a rubbermaid deck box with a bit of insulation and baffled intake and exhaust made from rockwool.

Hedges · Oct 4, 2023

Watts Happening said:
Currently there is no "system" to fail safe or deadly. I sincerely appreciate your arguments to keep me and my family safe, there is no question there.

I'm referring to a wireless link. Unless you have a watchdog that alarms when communication lost, it will fail silently, giving no warning.

Where I'm considering a relay to switch my inverters between on and off-grid (anti-islanding) operation, it will require continuity of coil and contacts to remain in the more risky off-grid settings. That does leave it subject to contact welding, but this won't carry current.

Sure, it might reduce emissions from a very badly running 30,000 ppm to a merely deadly 1000 ppm. Wikipedia:

"

800 ppm (0.08%), (0.8‰)

Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours

"

However, my (relatively) modern 23 year old car tests at 1 or 0 ppm CO.

Shimmy said:
10 feet horizontally with bends is a lot worse than 10 feet up vertically. I meant gummed up euphamistically, didn't mean just carbon buildup; there are a whole host of potential issues.

Now consider a 4" diameter dryer vent pipe. (seal all joints and seams.)

Look Ma! No backpressure!

If you do install a turbocharger, maybe you have to tune it a bit differently for the backpressure, from which you're harvesting horsepower.

Watts Happening said:
Finally, they post this, which kinda steps on everything else they've said, notice the "indoors and outdoors" part:

I had thought the same about propane, since propane floor polishers and construction equipment are used indoors. Diesel I thought of as more dangerous, but it normally operates with excess oxygen.

We would like to capture waste heat (CHP), although investment may only be worthwhile for long term use.

Starex · Oct 4, 2023

If you are going to rely on carbon monoxide detectors buy a good low level detector. Most over the counter detectors don’t alarm until the level is very high.
There is a recently posted thread on this forum “Improper placement of generators and carbon monoxide poisoning”
I suggest you read it.

KITROBASKIN · Oct 4, 2023

Does the generator have a key? Perhaps one could take other measures to guard against unauthorized generator use.

Brett V · Oct 4, 2023

It's doable with the correct cooling ventilation and exhaust as many have discussed. I'm wondering if you'll get more heat per cubic foot of propane from the heater you have as opposed to using that propane to fuel a generator and then power mini splits?

wopachop · Oct 4, 2023

Dont forget you can always run the generator in reverse to make the mileage go down.

Generator in the garage - Thoughts?

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