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What's The Best BMS? (Grrrr... ?)

One thing that I would put out there, that I think is both accurate and conceptually helpful for understanding its role. A BMS is a system, a way of accomplishing a goal, not a thing. Often it is a thing, a discrete component, but it doesn't have to be and often isn't.
Yes good point.
Are there other features I haven't listed here that you think should be or are essential features that a BMS absolutely and fundamentally should have. over current protection, high and low temperature protection and/or warning, data logging, State of Charge, State of Health, cell voltage delta disconnect, bluetooth or wifi connectivity, ability to interact with other components, are all features that a BMS could or should have, but not sure any qualify as universal must have's in every context, for every BMS. What do you think?
Actually none are truly essential, it depends on the user. An experienced user who ensures that cells are well matched and well balanced at provisioning, and installs in a climate controlled solar hut, could choose to just use an SCC, set absorption conservatively, and manually check cell voltages every 6 months to see if any manual balancing is needed. In that case the user is the BMS and takes on some risk that in spite of well balanced cells to start, one goes bad.

But my view is that for most users who just want it to work and don't want to obsess over watching it work (as some of us do :)), the essentials include HVD and LVD based on cell voltages to protect the battery from the most common and likely damage scenarios, and cell balancing to be less sensitive to imperfectly matched cells. You can go further if you want, for more levels of safety and monitoring, depending on your needs.

Even SOC is not essential to have in the BMS, some may choose to have a separate battery monitor such as a BMV-712 or say a Pico system for monitoring the various systems in an RV or boat.

The one thing the BMS and only the BMS can do is monitor individual cells and trigger actions based on individual cells.
 
Actually none are truly essential, it depends on the user.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough.

I don't mean essential to the user, some users will choose to go without a BMS or only need certain features, what I meant was essential to the definition of a BMS. In other words I think the minimum featureset of a battery management system has to include (A) cell level awareness / monitoring capabilities (B) cell level LVD and HVD (C) maybe cell balancing too (my mind is not made up on this last point).

The one thing the BMS and only the BMS can do is monitor individual cells and trigger actions based on individual cells.

Yes exactly. This is part of what I was trying to convey above. This is the very barebones and broad definition of what a BMS is. In my opinion the baseline minimum actions should be LVD and HVD.
 
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Yes exactly. This is part of what I was trying to convey above. This is the very barebones and broad definition of what a BMS is. In my opinion the baseline minimum actions should be LVD and HVD.

I will respectfully disagree.

My inverter, the only load, takes care of LVD.

My SCC takes care of HVD or stopping when charging which is the only time I see a need for HVD.

I see those functions better served “at the source of potential problems” if you will.

Since I am present at my setup my use case may be different than others.
 
I will respectfully disagree.

My inverter, the only load, takes care of LVD.

My SCC takes care of HVD or stopping when charging which is the only time I see a need for HVD.

I see those functions better served “at the source of potential problems” if you will.
That's OK it can work but risk of damage is higher. Without cell-level monitoring you take the risk that if you have one cell out of balance from the others, then it can easily go over 3.65V and be overcharged and damaged even while the battery-level voltage is fine and doesn't trip your SCC HVD. And you won't know until you notice lower capacity or see an inflated cell.

Are you running bare cells without a BMS? Or drop-in batteries with their internal BMS?
 
I will respectfully disagree.

My inverter, the only load, takes care of LVD.

My SCC takes care of HVD or stopping when charging which is the only time I see a need for HVD.

I see those functions better served “at the source of potential problems” if you will.

Since I am present at my setup my use case may be different than others.

If you look more closely at what Airtime and myself are saying, its that the BMS is the only device positioned to take actions at based on cell level conditions, and that the HVD and LVD we are referring to is based on cell level voltages. Inverter and Charger HVD and LVD is system level protection, I agree with you that using them as a first line (airtime will probably disagree with me here) is useful or even ideal in some contexts, but they are not substitutes for what a BMS provides.

That said, its up to the user to decide whether they need some or all of the protections a BMS provides, if you actively monitor/manage your system (and have spent the time to learn how to properly protect/manage/care for your lifepo4 cells) and/or have well balanced cells and conservative cutoffs maybe you don't need a BMS (or put differently, you are the BMS).

So in short, I don't think we actually disagree with one another.



edited for clarity
 
For reference, there was a guy here a few weeks back that was trying to understand what went wrong with his system. He had I think 3 cells above 3.65 (one was above 4). His HVD never kicked in. He didn't have a BMS and was relying on pack level protection. His pack level voltage was not out of spec, even though he had multiple cells far outside of the manufacturer recommended voltage range. If I recall, he didn't realize he needed a BMS as he thought it was redundant and thought he had well balanced cells as the resting voltages were tight and didn't realize that difference are more pronounced at the knees. I may be misremembering some details but this was the gist of it.

This case perfectly illustrates why cell level monitoring and protection is important, especially for newbies, and especially with the questionably sourced cells we tend to buy here. In my opinion foregoing a BMS is something that we should quietly acknowledge that experienced users may choose to do, but never something we should recommend or treat lightly without the disclaimer *for experienced and attentive users only, and even then a BMS is cheap security.
 
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A BMS is a system, a way of accomplishing a goal, not a thing. Often it is a thing, a discrete component, but it doesn't have to be and often isn't.
Totally agree. Take the Victron BMS for example. Sounds like a single product, a single 'thing', it is not. Their batteries have part of the BMS inside, there is also another separate 'combiner' part that all batteries connect to then that connects to contactors for charge and discharge control (actually fet-based relays) part. Together they form the BMS 'system':

2020-06-18_23-23-09.png
 
This thread has answered questions I didn't even know I had! Thanks to all who have contributed, and I hope the discussion continues.

For reference, there was a guy here a few weeks back...

This is a great example of what I fear might happen to me, something simple that with a greater understanding, could be avoided. Maybe there should be a short survey/quiz that users could take to test their knowledge to see how well they understand DIY LFP building, BMS functions, solar knowledge, etc. There are things that I have "put together" by reading various threads, but it wasn't until this thread that I knew for certain HVD and LVD meant high and low voltage disconnect. I'd like some way to "test" my knowledge.
 
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Is there a way on the forum to maintain a document? With homage to the KISS principle, just having a simple spreadsheet that folks could add to, and update, for bms info would be great.
 
Here are some features/specs to determine before you go shopping what to look for ...

Ah, I did not see herein the one question that Craig had for me, after looking at my system's components: what size is my inverter?

Should this be added to the list?

(In case you're curious :cool:, it's a pure sine wave 1500w continuous, 3000w surge.)
 
Is there a way on the forum to maintain a document? With homage to the KISS principle, just having a simple spreadsheet that folks could add to, and update, for bms info would be great.
Given the seemingly infinite variations, I am not sure a simple spreadsheet is possible. Maybe two or three simple spreadsheets, based on battery type and configuration (e.g., did you assemble the cells yourself or did you get a Battle Born?) and 12V-24v-48v?
 
Ah, I did not see herein the one question that Craig had for me, after looking at my system's components: what size is my inverter?

Should this be added to the list?

(In case you're curious :cool:, it's a pure sine wave 1500w continuous, 3000w surge.)

This is encompassed in the question "what amperage" (which I would rephrase as "what will the maximum current in or out of the battery be")

in residential situations your inverter may be your only load, or only large load, in other contexts DC current might be a lot bigger factor. Either way, the relevant factor is maximum total current in one direction.
 
Given the seemingly infinite variations, I am not sure a simple spreadsheet is possible. Maybe two or three simple spreadsheets, based on battery type and configuration (e.g., did you assemble the cells yourself or did you get a Battle Born?) and 12V-24v-48v?
True. Would probably need at least multiple tabs. And a very large "notes" column, ha.
 
Still no takers?

Let's give it a day for other members to check in and if nobody volunteers, I'll do it. If I do end up doing this, however, I'm going to need a lot of help - never having actually owned a BMS before! Talk about the blind leading the blind! ?
 
True. Would probably need at least multiple tabs. And a very large "notes" column, ha.

It would be nice to have some sort of reference for at least the 5 or so most popular BMS around here. A spreadsheet could be a quick reference but it might be hard to convey a lot of the differences/strengths/weaknesses in spreadsheet form. It would be great for things like current and bluetooth, but harder to convey the many more complex and subjective differences, especially between BMS of different topologies. Still maybe worth pursuing. Even just a comparison of the most common FET based BMS' (Daly, AntBMS, JBD-SP04S020/DYKB/Overkill) would be a good starting point. Some sort of systematic comparison would be nice. But I think this would be more of a resource for the intermediate to advanced crowd than most beginners who often come here not really knowing what they are looking for and understandably looking for a bit more handholding and explanation.
 
and if nobody volunteers
I have an idea how this could be implemented. Perhaps as a starting point...
(and i am not qualified to implement, so thanks for not assuming that)

We have a Wiki feature on this website. If we had a BMS page that listed all the known BMS's (user updatable). Each of these could have a link to a page or their own where folks could add their own names to the list of users (past or present). And each of these could have links to a page where a user could add info (fill out a form?) about their usage and experiences. Settings/implementation details would be nice too.

Maybe with a couple of templates, folks would help populate the Wiki.

Extra credit to anyone who could automate summary info across the pages for number of implementations, recommendations/ratings and the likes.
 
An experienced user who ensures that cells are well matched and well balanced at provisioning, and installs in a climate controlled solar hut, could choose to just use an SCC, set absorption conservatively, and manually check cell voltages every 6 months to see if any manual balancing is needed. In that case the user is the BMS and takes on some risk that in spite of well balanced cells to start, one goes bad.

But my view is that for most users who just want it to work and don't want to obsess over watching it work (as some of us do :))

I recall this SCC/no BMS discussion @Airtime in another BMS thread (ANT BMS??) where these merits were debated. Likely don't want to muddy up this thread by continuing that topic... o_O
 
Still no takers?

I think you've prompted a good conversation so far, lets see how things evolve. Its a bit of a daunting task to put together a comprehensive comparison, but if a handful of people were to contribute info on the BMS they chose, what led them to that choice, what its missing, and the pros/cons/limitation/killer features as they see it, and maybe what other BMS' they considered and why they ruled them out. It would give us a good base to build out from.

I think part of the difficulty of this task is there are very few if any people with broad and deep knowledge of BMS'. There are a few people with deep knowledge but usually only with 1 or 2 BMS' and there are very few people with broad experience with many BMS' (Will is the only person I can think of off the top of my head that comes close).
 
This is a separate track from the spreadsheet like comparison being discussed here, but this conversation prompted me to revive one of my old threads about the concept of a BMS and throw together a rough beginner FAQ, mostly for my own purposes of explanation. Feel free to tell me what I got right, wrong, or left out, or what you would add, omit, or change. Its super rough and limited in scope, it started with the idea of giving myself a post to point to or quote rather than retyping my answers to the same few questions in the beginners forum every few days. It may or may not evolve or expand. Feel free to use or adapt any part of it.

Okay, I'm circling back to this post of mine after spending a good amount of time researching, thinking about, and discussing BMS. I still feel like a newbie regarding BMS' in the realm of things, but a knowledgeable-newb ;).

I'm going to use this post to put some of my thoughts into writing, and to answer some of the questions and misconceptions that come up all the time in the beginners forum. For starters:

DZL's FAQ:
not official, authoritative, or set in stone, but better than nothing

Which is the best BMS?
There is no best BMS, the BMS that is best for you will depend on the type and specifics of your system, your priorities/goals, your experience/comfort level, and the context of your situation. The best BMS for a small hobby system where the user wants something that 'just works' and requires no user intervention/management, will be different than the best BMS for a multithousand dollar battery bank on a sailboat setting out on a arctic expedition.

To get better recommendations, explain a bit about your system and goals/experience (at a minimum what is your cell arrangement, what is the max current, will the batteries be exposed to freezing temperatures, what is your use case)?

Do I need a BMS?
If you are building a battery using raw cells and you are asking this question, then the short answer is YES, you do. Like a seat belt, its not absolutely needed to operate a vehicle, your car runs fine without it, and if you are a careful driver and don't have bad luck hopefully you will never need it, but its cheap security in the event that you do need it, and a fundamental piece of a properly designed system.

I have a Drop-in lithium or lead acid battery do I need a BMS?
No. Lead acid doesn't need it, and drop-in lithium batteries already have the BMS built in.

What is a BMS?
A Battery Management System is a system for monitoring, managing, and protecting lithium batteries. The defining features are that it is aware of cell level voltages and it can take take actions based on cell level voltages. These actions most commonly include but are not limited to automated low voltage disconnect (LVD), high voltage disconnect (HVD) and cell balancing. Additionally many people look for features such as low and high temperature protection, over current protection (OCP), and State of Charge (SOC) monitoring.

If there is one thing you remember about the role of a BMS, its cell level monitoring and protection. This is what fundamentally distinguishes it from other components of your system.

What isn't a BMS?
An active cell balancer is not a BMS, it can monitor and balance but not protect.
The protection features built into other components like chargers and inverters work hand in hand with a BMS but on their own do not comprise or replace a BMS.

But my Inverter/Charge Controller/Battery Protect/etc has LVD and/or HVD
These are useful features to have, but do not replace the need for a BMS. Recall the distinction of cell level protection. Your inverter or charger only has knowledge of pack level voltage, it is ignorant of cell level voltage, and won't be aware of cell level problems.

You said a BMS is a system, not a thing, what does that mean?
A BMS is a system, designed by what it does, not what it is. It is a system for managing and protecting your battery at the cell level. Often this is accomplished by a single component, in this case a BMS is a system and device. These devices are often referred to here as "FET based BMS'" (and occasionally inline BMS' or commodity BMS'). But even with these single device BMS some aspects of battery management are often accomplished by other devices.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are decentralized BMS' or modular BMS' like the Batrium Watchmon4

Then in the middle, there BMS' like the SBMS0 and the Chargery, that have centralized command/monitoring but rely on external components for control and additional features. Within this group there is a distinction between BMS' designed around relays like the Chargery, or BMS' designed to integrate with and control the other components in your system.

How do I know what type of BMS is right for me?
That is a complicated question that is beyond the scope of this FAQ, but we can make some generalizations.

Inline "FET based" BMS' are often the simplest most affordable option for simple systems. They are the closest to a 'plug and play' approach to battery management. They are limited by the current that they can safely handle. There are a few high amperage models (Daly for instance), but most are <150A, and most experienced forum members reccomend derating this type of BMS below the stated max current.

If you desire more flexibility, customization, or higher current you may want to look beyond FET based BMS' at options like the SBMS, Chargery, or TinyBMS which are not 'in the main current path' and thus are not current limited in the same way that inline FET based BMS are. These types of BMS usually offer an expanded featureset and greater flexibility and capability (SOC monitoring for instance).

I bought [this brand/type/capacity] cells what size BMS do I need?
Battery capacity is irrelevant to BMS selection. What you need to know is how many cells in series and what the max current in/out of the battery will be.

What is the difference between common port and separate port?
As far as I know, Daly is the only company that makes this distinction. And its only a distinction relevant to FET based BMS'

Common port means that there will be one universal current limit for charge and discharge, and the BMS can only connect/disconnect the battery, it cannot control charging and discharging separately. This is not ideal for a number of reasons, but its cheaper to produce, and allows a higher charge current than their separate port BMS' which tend to have much more limited charge current limits.

Separate port allows controlling of charge and discharge current separately.

Most other BMS do not make the distinction between common and separate port (with the added bonus of not having limited charge current). Some refer to these as Hybrid Port BMS, as they operate like a separate port BMS but have some technical differences.

My advice, get a BMS that is capable of controlling charging and discharging separately unless you have an explicit reason not to.

What are some BMS that people on this forum like/use/recommend?
Daly BMS
Daly Smart BMS
Ant BMS
JBD-SP04S020 ( AKA the DYKB / Overkill Solar / Battery Hookup BMS)
Chargery BMS
SBMS0

What are some other notable BMS' worth exploring?
TinyBMS
DIYBMS
Batrium
Orion Jr

Most of these BMS' are available on different platforms from different sellers, and sometimes with different configurations, I'm not endorsing, promoting, or reccomending these configurations or sellers. The links above are just starting points for your research, due diligence required.
 
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