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Help me choose new batteries

I would suggest 2x of the V5 kits from sunfunkits, they have a black friday sale and free shipping on them

Its the only battery where you can keep heating on during idle most of of the other batteries only have heating if you are charging so nothing to stop them to freezing if they are idle.

Also you can turn bluetooth on or off and it has an active balancer.
 
Hi @Hedges ! Is there an advantage to getting 12v batteries instead of 24v? I was planning to get 24v batteries if I stick to the 24v system, or 48v if I upgrade to a 48v system, instead of linking 12v batteries together. I like your idea of cycling the fridge - I bet I could get a smart outlet to do that timing wise?

@gotbeans That was an excellent video, thank you for sharing. I am impressed by William's videos and tutorials. I am very intrigued by the insulated box idea and using a heating pad, I think I will use that strategy. Is there a heating pad you recommend? I saw William made a video of some that he recommends, I might just go with those but you are more in the know than I am in this conversation.

Oh, snap! I never heard or thought of burying batteries. Thats INTENSE!

I am thinking about 3 options: (1) replace the batteries, (2) replace the batteries and the inverter, or (3) replace everything with a 48v system. I like that mobile system he created. I think 48v scares me a little bit, and I would need more solar panels to compensate for the idle draw of that large all in one unit. You are right that I am very much in the woods with lots of trees around, and I did just as you recommend to help with the shading issue I currently have my 3 panels each hooked to its own Victron scc. I guess because of those downsides I agree with you about just replacing the 24v batteries and maybe the inverter, so either options 1 or 2 above.

What do you think about my current idea? Buy 1 or 2 24v 200 ah batteries, add a heating pad, and stick with the 24v system. I saw this 3000w 24v Giandel inverter recommended by William Prowse, and it is on sale. I feel like this would be a huge upgrade in my system, but the Amazon page says that inverter has a "Battery Capacity: 300 amp hour." Does this mean I can not connect it to 2 24v 200 ah batteries, because that would have 400 ah total? From what Ive been reading this system with separate inverter, charger, sccs, etc would have a much lower draw than the all-in-one units available.

I am very much appreciating of everyone on this forum helping me think through this project!
Since you seem to not use a lot of power I'd just upgrade your batteries. I'm always in there to save money and if you ever did go 48v in the years to come you can always combine your 24v batteries.. but it might never happen since you're using gas heating and not electric heating. That'd really be a system makeover if you needed thousands of watts constantly.
and I think with all the trees it's very smart to have more charge controllers and more arrays than one big one.

I actually did a very sloppy test last night to maybe mimic much colder weathers. It was 30 degrees in my shop (no heat) and 20 something outside and I just laid a bunch of rock wool over a battery with some 20 watt lizard pad and it kept it at 76 degrees all night and even kept turning off since it was reaching max heat setting.. So it was plenty to heat the batteries.
It was also only 4 inches of rock wool
As far as a pad I recommend no, I think the brands are all just random chinese ones.
Here are 2x 20 watt ones, so 40 watts total https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Adjustment-Terrarium-Reptiles-Tortoise/dp/B07ZSFTS5Y/ I think that's pretty good price too looking at other ones? I'd recommend it just from the price, they are all pretty much the same. They're basically laminated with plastic and pretty durable other than if you animals try to eat it (batteries won't do that)

As far as that inverter and your amp hour no I think you can connect as much as you want.. I've never heard of a limit like that.
The device draws what it needs and I guess it must have a surge of 7200 watts? because 24 * 300 amps (it's limit is 300 amp) is 7200 watts and it's only a 3000 watt unit so must be talking about surge power?
You would want a 300 amp fuse I guess is where the inverter's rating is at but you can have massive battery banks connected to any size inverter, the inverter will only pull what it needs to power what it is powering and it just has a "max rating"

See attached pics
This system is pretty half complete but you can see I put a lifepower4 battery inside of 4 inches of terribly laid insulation with gaps and cracks of air and the inverter pulls 60 watts all night (some lights in a different room) + 20 watt heater it is currently 38 degrees and it is 78 in the battery box
So the battery is not used much, 60-80 watts. And the heater itself is 20 of those watts and that just heats the battery from underneath it

I think it's a good test since it is not very complete you can expect better results from 4+ inches and a complete box
Here's a more complete write up of my ghetto test:

Right at lowes you can get some thick rock wool https://www.lowes.com/pl/Rockwool--...ing-supplies/4294524376?refinement=2290921190
R30 on some of them. mine should be around R12-R13 since it is the 4 inches but it has air leakage so even less
Some of those are in a bulk package of 12+ idk how much money you got, but can always insulate your entire yurt hahaha

These things are extremely safe too for fire. There are other good tests as well

This is my favorite one but it's long and maybe boring to some people
 

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It is generally better to have single string of cells/batteries on a system rather than multiple in parallel.
If you are building 24V today and plan to move to 48V later, then (at least with lead-acid) you might make two parallel strings for 24V, so you could rewire for 48V.

Lead-acid batteries are heavy, and I find the easiest to move with a dolly if no more than 100 to 150 lbs. My battery has eight, 6V 405Ah batteries of that weight. For a larger bank, could be 24, 2V 1200 Ah batteries.

A single 24V lead-acid battery, if available, might be convenient for you.

Individual 2V cells (or accessible busbars) makes it possible to charge them individually. Otherwise, "equalization" is over-charging the entire battery, bubbling the fully charged cells, in order to to bring up the low ones.

For lithium, definitely best to get a single 24V or 48V battery, because then a single BMS can balance all cells.
You can connect multiple lithium batteries in series, but only if documentation says they support that configuration - when BMS disconnects, it is exposed to entire pack voltage.

If you're going with lithium, make the switch to 48V up front. You can get 100 Ah 48V server rack batteries from about $1200 and up, but you may want something with heating. There are 12V heated "drop-in" batteries.

Here is a very interesting product - larger 280 Ah, 48V, weatherproof. Priced around $4000.

Hi @Hedges ! That is a interesting product from EG4, I never saw that before. I think I will go with lithium, Im not really seeing much benefit from the lead acid options at the moment given my use. Would it be bad to put 2 24v lithiums in parallel to double the amp hours available for more backup power on cloudy days?
 
I would suggest 2x of the V5 kits from sunfunkits, they have a black friday sale and free shipping on them

Its the only battery where you can keep heating on during idle most of of the other batteries only have heating if you are charging so nothing to stop them to freezing if they are idle.

Also you can turn bluetooth on or off and it has an active balancer.
Very cool @Sam Cho TX ! Reading that website makes my head spin, Im not sure my level of knowledge in this area is strong enough for those products. Im hoping to find a rather simple solution to plug and play.
Since you seem to not use a lot of power I'd just upgrade your batteries. I'm always in there to save money and if you ever did go 48v in the years to come you can always combine your 24v batteries.. but it might never happen since you're using gas heating and not electric heating. That'd really be a system makeover if you needed thousands of watts constantly.
and I think with all the trees it's very smart to have more charge controllers and more arrays than one big one.

I actually did a very sloppy test last night to maybe mimic much colder weathers. It was 30 degrees in my shop (no heat) and 20 something outside and I just laid a bunch of rock wool over a battery with some 20 watt lizard pad and it kept it at 76 degrees all night and even kept turning off since it was reaching max heat setting.. So it was plenty to heat the batteries.
It was also only 4 inches of rock wool
As far as a pad I recommend no, I think the brands are all just random chinese ones.
Here are 2x 20 watt ones, so 40 watts total https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Adjustment-Terrarium-Reptiles-Tortoise/dp/B07ZSFTS5Y/ I think that's pretty good price too looking at other ones? I'd recommend it just from the price, they are all pretty much the same. They're basically laminated with plastic and pretty durable other than if you animals try to eat it (batteries won't do that)

As far as that inverter and your amp hour no I think you can connect as much as you want.. I've never heard of a limit like that.
The device draws what it needs and I guess it must have a surge of 7200 watts? because 24 * 300 amps (it's limit is 300 amp) is 7200 watts and it's only a 3000 watt unit so must be talking about surge power?
You would want a 300 amp fuse I guess is where the inverter's rating is at but you can have massive battery banks connected to any size inverter, the inverter will only pull what it needs to power what it is powering and it just has a "max rating"

See attached pics
This system is pretty half complete but you can see I put a lifepower4 battery inside of 4 inches of terribly laid insulation with gaps and cracks of air and the inverter pulls 60 watts all night (some lights in a different room) + 20 watt heater it is currently 38 degrees and it is 78 in the battery box
So the battery is not used much, 60-80 watts. And the heater itself is 20 of those watts and that just heats the battery from underneath it

I think it's a good test since it is not very complete you can expect better results from 4+ inches and a complete box
Here's a more complete write up of my ghetto test:

Right at lowes you can get some thick rock wool https://www.lowes.com/pl/Rockwool--...ing-supplies/4294524376?refinement=2290921190
R30 on some of them. mine should be around R12-R13 since it is the 4 inches but it has air leakage so even less
Some of those are in a bulk package of 12+ idk how much money you got, but can always insulate your entire yurt hahaha

These things are extremely safe too for fire. There are other good tests as well

This is my favorite one but it's long and maybe boring to some people
Thank you for your amazing and thorough post here @gotbeans ! I am leaning towards the simple battery upgrade, maybe with a inverter upgrade as well so that I can use a little more power if needed. I agree with everything you said and want to stick with my 3 controllers because of all my shading.

Your test is amazing! Thank you for sharing that write up. It sounds like I shouldn't have any problem with some insulation and a small heater keeping things toasty, or at least above freezing. Great news! I will have to think about a pretty construction option for the box with rockwool, I know my wife would not be thrilled if I just had exposed rockwool over a battery (our yurt home is basically 1 small room). Maybe I can build it into the couch somehow...

Thank you for directly addressing that 300 amp battery capacity question on the Giandel. I was surprised to see it, I also thought I could hook up a larger battery bank to an inverter. Here is a screenshot of what I see online. You can see on the bottom right the battery capacity thing I mentioned.
 

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2 of these are almost the same capacity as your existing battery bank: https://www.litime.com/products/litime-24v-100ah-lifepo4-lithium-battery But remember, you can use most of the LiFePO4 capacity every day without serious degradation, whereas you want to use no more than 50% of lead acid capacity for longevity.

And don't be afraid of keeping them warm. You don't need to keep the batteries at room temperature, just above freezing when charging. You can discharge them when below freezing, and 40° F is a nice, safe number for charging.
 
2 of these are almost the same capacity as your existing battery bank: https://www.litime.com/products/litime-24v-100ah-lifepo4-lithium-battery But remember, you can use most of the LiFePO4 capacity every day without serious degradation, whereas you want to use no more than 50% of lead acid capacity for longevity.

And don't be afraid of keeping them warm. You don't need to keep the batteries at room temperature, just above freezing when charging. You can discharge them when below freezing, and 40° F is a nice, safe number for charging.
Thank you @Q-Dog ! That is great to keep in mind, I will have a lot more backup power even with the same amp hours as I have now. The price point right now between the LiTime 24v 200ah battery and the comparable Eg4 battery are similar enough that both are in my price range - is one necessarily better than the other?
 
Did you see the AmpereTime 200ah for $1177 each? Those are leftovers from before they changed their name, otherwise same battery. 2 of those would double your storage capacity.

I just finished charging up 2 of those today, so I can add them to my system. Haven't had a chance to discharge them, but they should pull capacity based on their charging behaviour so far.

Only a few left. Mine shipped in less than a week.
 
Did you see the AmpereTime 200ah for $1177 each? Those are leftovers from before they changed their name, otherwise same battery. 2 of those would double your storage capacity.

I just finished charging up 2 of those today, so I can add them to my system. Haven't had a chance to discharge them, but they should pull capacity based on their charging behaviour so far.

Only a few left. Mine shipped in less than a week.
Hi @Q-Dog ! I did see those, its a great discount! The EG4 server rack batteries are right in the same range ($80 more each) and Im trying to figure out if I should stick with the lower cost battery or if there is something special about the higher priced EG4s (batter quality? BMS? Rack-ability? Customer service?) Im so new to think and there are just so many options its mind boggling. What made you go for the LiTime (AmpereTime) instead of the other billion companies?
 
Hi @Q-Dog ! I did see those, its a great discount! The EG4 server rack batteries are right in the same range ($80 more each) and Im trying to figure out if I should stick with the lower cost battery or if there is something special about the higher priced EG4s (batter quality? BMS? Rack-ability? Customer service?) Im so new to think and there are just so many options its mind boggling. What made you go for the LiTime (AmpereTime) instead of the other billion companies?
We don't have room for a rack where we have our system installed, and I don't want to rebuild everything right now. These new batteries will fit on a shelf under the existing batteries ... so all of them stacked on a pair of shelves on the wall. They are also 200ah, same as my older batteries, doubling our capacity to 20 kWh of total storage.

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Hi @Hedges ! That is a interesting product from EG4, I never saw that before. I think I will go with lithium, Im not really seeing much benefit from the lead acid options at the moment given my use. Would it be bad to put 2 24v lithiums in parallel to double the amp hours available for more backup power on cloudy days?

You can parallel for more amp hours storage, so good for extended time without sun. Not necessarily for more peak amps, since split may not be 50/50.

That particular EG4 battery is 48V.
As Beans said, your needs are small enough that you could stick with 24V, start from scratch if you do want a large 48V system in the future.
 
Yea building the box into the couch sounds like a good idea honestly. It'd make it have even more insulation.

With that inverter there are answers on it. It's seemingly their "guideline" I think it is just worded weird maybe. It seems more like their minimum suggested than their maximum..?
They have 6 fuses 30 amps each so that's only 180 amps. I guess their spike of 6000 watts is from capacitor or something but
Does that link work for you? It goes straight to an answer. I tested it with private browser so I think it'll go directly to it for you
If you type in "300 amp hour" in the search thing in the reviews there are several people asking similar questions

Also with backup power supplies when you go over the rated battery they are designed to handle their maximum wattage for X hours. If your battery is too big the unit will overheat.
One of the answers there kind of suggests that. As he says 2.5 hour... running time with 300 amp hour battery.
That means at 3000 watts continuous. And they probably test at 70F+ degrees too. So if you run it at 3000 watts non stop you shouldn't have a "larger" battery than 300 amp hours I guess..
You won't have that issue and it's only something I'd look into if you are running at like 2000+ watts non stop for hours, then maybe start to worry about inverter heat.
Backup battery (UPS) supplies are a lot worse. a 7 amp hour battery usually at 12 or 24 volts which is massively lower and if they're at a 10+ amp hour a lot of them will overheat once the 7 amp hours is passed as they're designed to run to their max for the exact length the battery lasts.
Not all of them are like that, either.

As others said you can put all you want in parallel though to bring up the capacity. and attach all the 24v batteries to a bus bar and then attach the bus bar to your inverter. The more you have the longer it'll last / slower it will charge (I think you understand the basics of that)
in the future you can just add more solar panels and charge controllers to it if you're unable to get it to power up fully during the day.. and thus the endless cycle of growing goes lmao
 
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2 of these are almost the same capacity as your existing battery bank: https://www.litime.com/products/litime-24v-100ah-lifepo4-lithium-battery But remember, you can use most of the LiFePO4 capacity every day without serious degradation, whereas you want to use no more than 50% of lead acid capacity for longevity.

And don't be afraid of keeping them warm. You don't need to keep the batteries at room temperature, just above freezing when charging. You can discharge them when below freezing, and 40° F is a nice, safe number for charging.
2 of those is 1056 so cheaper than https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-24v-200ah/
Do you need a breaker only for the two? so it'd be about $150 cheaper than this all in all
oh they have a 2 pack on the site for $1045, save a few dollars!
Looks like there's several other deals, like 5% more for subscribing to the email etc for the li-time battery
 
@Q-Dog holy moly, that photo is incredible! I cant imagine having that kind of set up, that is intense!

@Hedges Thank you so much! I am planning now to stick with 24v and can upgrade to 48v in the future if needed.

@gotbeans Thank you for always being thorough in your responses, and your links are invaluable. I am liking the couch idea too, especially since the new batteries will not give off flammable gasses! Your link worked perfectly for me, and it sounds like the inverter would be a good choice if I choose to upgrade the inverter. I definitely will not have any problem with needing that much power any time in the near future. Thank you for pointing that out and finding the answer. Given everyone's advice here I am planning to get 2 batteries tonight, wired in parallel to bring up the capacity. I will need to research the appropriate bus bars for my connections (every connection I have currently is trash, lots of electrical tape)! Oh no, I feel like you are peering into my future with all this talk of adding panels and controllers. I can definitely see that happening. Ahhh!!

So I went ahead and added both the LiTime and EG4 batteries to my cart. I would get 4 LiTime 24v 100ah batteries, versus 2 of the EG4 24v 200ah batteries. Current cost with tax, shipping, and promotions included come out to:

LiTime: $1979
EG4: $2695

So I would save $716 with the LiTime batteries. Wow! That is a lot!

What (if any) reasons are there to go with EG4 over the LiTime batteries?
 
Cheapest large capacity battery I've seen is the two pack of 48V 50Ah from DC House for $800 with free shipping. The eg4s get pretty expensive once shipping is added in.
That is exactly what I just discovered @Brucey . Looks like I can save $716 by getting 4 LiTime batteries instead of 2 EG4s. Do you see any reasons to pay the premium? Im trying to decide so that I can take advantage of the Black Friday deals.
 
I'd do the li-time because THEY'RE WAY CHEAPER! but also if you choose to go to a 48v system in the future you can just connect them in series with a BMS? (or just balance them manually every x months) and have a 48V battery
Am I wrong? Someone can correct me.
I guess you can technically do that with the eg4 as well but they'd have to be set to "dummy batteries" all the computer (the "better" BMS) in them is wasted

I use these bus bars which are massively overkill but they will last a million years and also can connect a ton of batteries / inverters etc

See because I look at these
and I just think it is 1/3rd the price but it only has 4 ports... and that is just sad to me

Also mine can handle like 600+ amps or something
Honestly I don't know if I'd even trust the 4 port one with 250 amps lol
A lot of people say bad things about brass bus bars. I just get massively overkill then not worry about any of it

Obviously the big one I linked might be too big for your space IDK.. also it has no housing
 
I'd do the li-time because THEY'RE WAY CHEAPER! but also if you choose to go to a 48v system in the future you can just connect them in series with a BMS? (or just balance them manually every x months) and have a 48V battery
Am I wrong? Someone can correct me.
I guess you can technically do that with the eg4 as well but they'd have to be set to "dummy batteries" all the computer (the "better" BMS) in them is wasted

I use these bus bars which are massively overkill but they will last a million years and also can connect a ton of batteries / inverters etc

See because I look at these
and I just think it is 1/3rd the price but it only has 4 ports... and that is just sad to me

Also mine can handle like 600+ amps or something
Honestly I don't know if I'd even trust the 4 port one with 250 amps lol
A lot of people say bad things about brass bus bars. I just get massively overkill then not worry about any of it

Obviously the big one I linked might be too big for your space IDK.. also it has no housing
They are definitely way cheaper @gotbeans ! I have both the LiTime and EG4 in my carts right now and digging through research to find out which to buy. I think you make really good points and so far the only reason I have really found to go with the EG4s is their low temperature shut off in the BMS, which I do not think the LiTime has. I do worry about the temperature in my yurt, which can get cold when I am not running the wood stove, and it might be a nice feature backup in case the heat pads/insulation fail. But that might be me justifying a higher price tag. Im getting close to bed time but still looking into these differences - eek!
 
www.LiTime.com has a black friday sale on their drop-in batteries. There are a couple of 24 volts options that don't look bad, but I don't think they offer a heated battery at 24 volts. You could always build an insulated box or cabinet to keep them in ... maybe add some heating pads for the coldest times.
If he’s tough enough to live in a yurt in northern Vermont then he needs to google where the term “Three Dog Nite” came from…(yes , like the 70s rock band) then go buy 3 furry white dogs from Siberia…train them to sleep in an insulated box with the battery’s ( instead of you)…that way you have 3 great friends , protection, and free heat for the batts even on a 3 dog nite….

J.
 
If he’s tough enough to live in a yurt in northern Vermont then he needs to google where the term “Three Dog Nite” came from…(yes , like the 70s rock band) then go buy 3 furry white dogs from Siberia…train them to sleep in an insulated box with the battery’s ( instead of you)…that way you have 3 great friends , protection, and free heat for the batts even on a 3 dog nite….

J.
Now we are taking @JRH ! I do dog sit an Akbash occasionally, so Im really only 2 dogs away... But seriously, we are probably getting a dog in a few months, ha!
 
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