Back in the buggy whip era, my 1991 FL state masters license was good in FL, NC and CA. My 1981 GA state unrestricted license was good in GA, LA, AL, TN, and SC. Things have changed since way back then. NC and FL are now the states in which to acquire state master licenses. Those two will get you the southeast US including VA and TX and maybe other states.
How do DIY folks deal with NEC 690.4 (C) - Qualified Persons Only
- Thread starter TheMadNucleus
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apson
New Member
Sorry to resurrect this thread as my first post but this is an extremely useful thread and I wanted to add something. My county (Nevada County, California) building department confirmed with me today after a very interesting phone call that I could become a "qualified person" by completing an online NFPA 70E exam. This was at the suggestion of the inspector I was speaking with which I thought was rather nice. I went online and found a course with a certificate of completion for $45 (USD) and he looked at the website and ran it by his supervisor who said it was okay. They still want me to have a "licensed contractor" design the plans which I thought was strange. Our county off-grid solar handout states:
"System shall be designed by a licensed solar contractor for residential projects and a licensed
electrical engineer for commercial projects."
I'm still somewhat confused as to the "designed" requirement -- this sounds to me like there will be the "contractor of record" which I didn't think was a thing. PE stamps make sense to me; it's being on the record and liable for E&O.
Another thing I'll point out is something the building department guy mentioned: "I remember the meetings about this and there were no homeowners in the room, just county and contractors."
Not surprising. Nothing against contractors but 1) there aren't many of them left and 2) they have a direct conflict of interest when it comes to prohibition of allowed owner-builder projects.
A California electrical engineer stamp will cost me $600. What's more troubling about this is that the EG4 6000XP has even fewer connections; most of the engineering here has already been done by the manufacturer (and certified by UL). Conductor sizing and conduit fill is prescriptive. It seems like forcing me to hire a contractor would be in violation of some state or federal law.
Again, I thought only a water well required a licensed contractor (which makes sense to me).
"System shall be designed by a licensed solar contractor for residential projects and a licensed
electrical engineer for commercial projects."
I'm still somewhat confused as to the "designed" requirement -- this sounds to me like there will be the "contractor of record" which I didn't think was a thing. PE stamps make sense to me; it's being on the record and liable for E&O.
Another thing I'll point out is something the building department guy mentioned: "I remember the meetings about this and there were no homeowners in the room, just county and contractors."
Not surprising. Nothing against contractors but 1) there aren't many of them left and 2) they have a direct conflict of interest when it comes to prohibition of allowed owner-builder projects.
A California electrical engineer stamp will cost me $600. What's more troubling about this is that the EG4 6000XP has even fewer connections; most of the engineering here has already been done by the manufacturer (and certified by UL). Conductor sizing and conduit fill is prescriptive. It seems like forcing me to hire a contractor would be in violation of some state or federal law.
Again, I thought only a water well required a licensed contractor (which makes sense to me).
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Water well and I think fire sprinkler?
Of course rules are made to exclude competition.
There is a whole lot that could be designed wrong in a PV system, but UL listed equipment and series/parallel connections adding up to voltage/current within spec for equipment and wires ought to be sufficient. Some things come with vendor's engineered drawings, especially rack mounts. Not sure if states are requiring state-licensed PE stamping those - I would consider that appropriate for large structures, not small arrays.
Check out Santan solar, which offers plans for systems. May be able to have them stamped by PE for various states.
Of course rules are made to exclude competition.
There is a whole lot that could be designed wrong in a PV system, but UL listed equipment and series/parallel connections adding up to voltage/current within spec for equipment and wires ought to be sufficient. Some things come with vendor's engineered drawings, especially rack mounts. Not sure if states are requiring state-licensed PE stamping those - I would consider that appropriate for large structures, not small arrays.
Check out Santan solar, which offers plans for systems. May be able to have them stamped by PE for various states.
hwy17
Anti-Solar Enthusiast
My AHJ uses 690.4 (C) to deny homeowner applications for solar or battery permits.
So I don't apply for permits anymore.
So I don't apply for permits anymore.
OffGridInTheCity
Solar Wizard
In my jurisdiction, 6 years ago, I did my solar as 'the homeowner', 'myself' - e.g. I submitted house plans and used IronRidge roof rails as they (Ironridge) provide a range of engineering docs that will pass almost any jurisdiction - so you don't need an engineer. My jurisdiction accepted the IronRidge docs and just inspected to make sure I followed their design to sign off. *The tidbit here was that ONLY the homeowner could do the work - anyone else had to be solar licensed. Maybe this nit applies in your case?
However, they required an electrician. I was lucky and found one that charged me a couple of thousand BUT.... let me do a lot of the work and explained all the relevant codes and saw me thru the inspection process. This saved many thousands and overall worked for me and I learned how to do this type of work to meet code - e.g. DC must be in conduits, x, y, z . Later on I used the 'home owner may expand circuits' rule in my jurisdiction and was able to expand my system all to code as I just copied what I learned.
Maybe I got lucky... but maybe you too can find someone similar to be the electrician of record and yet help you navigate the permit process so you come out hands-on and educated and save some serious $.
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I live in a nazi county in Colorado and finishing up my offgrid log cabin. I've done 100% of the work myself and it was inspected by the county.
I have a 4kw solar array with all renogy equipment. Not UL listed but my county requires NEC2023.
Each time I have an inspection I 100% tear down the entire solar array and move it to another building on my property. Get inspected and then move it back.
I'm finalizing the permit using a portable generator plugged into an inlet that feeds the main panel.
F the county.
I have a 4kw solar array with all renogy equipment. Not UL listed but my county requires NEC2023.
Each time I have an inspection I 100% tear down the entire solar array and move it to another building on my property. Get inspected and then move it back.
I'm finalizing the permit using a portable generator plugged into an inlet that feeds the main panel.
F the county.
Nobodybusiness
Collecting the leftovers of the Great Sky Reactor.
That’s unfortunate your state went this way.
For now my state still allows homeowners to do the work as long as it’s inspected.
They finally hired a guy who knows Solar and is very busy.
That’s all he does.
Nobodybusiness
Collecting the leftovers of the Great Sky Reactor.
That’s the way I had to do mine initially
.
hwy17
Anti-Solar Enthusiast
Funny thing is it's not even my state, it's my county. AHJ's are little fiefdoms.
I just recently heard about this being an option in some places. For minor residential electrical work it makes a lot of sense, although I would prefer a little more rigor than just NFPA-70E personally.
This is intended to allow residential projects the option of being designed by a solar contractor; it usually will not preclude having plans by a PE submitted, although for commercial the PE is required. The little guideline just simplified the language to the point that it was a little ambiguous.
As long as you have someone with appropriate experience doing the design you are covered. Yes, most of these new inverters are essentially just appliances, but the solar panels and connections to them warrant some level of design.
apson
New Member
This is exactly the case I would make for AHJs to provide a streamlined pathway for DIY. If their goal was to keep their citizens safe, they're ignoring the reality which is a direct increase in un-permitted work. You could say the same for DIY electrical in general. The reality is that there's a major (documented) electrician shortage combined with a record level of Federal and State initiatives promoting Solar energy.
I can accept being asked to complete a short, certificated safety course that only costs $45. But making me hire a PE ($600 minimum) or a Contractor seems wrong.
I keep getting this sinking feeling that they'll be moving the goalpost once I provide the stamped electrical diagram.
Also, the PE stamp is not a requirement for residential...but good luck finding a contractor to review your wiring diagram and put their name on it for any less than $600 (oh, and they're busy until 6-8 weeks from now...).
apson
New Member
The only thing that I don't believe is prescriptive is string fuses but perhaps even that is... Conduit fill and conductor sizing is easy.
I really mean no offense to any licensed electricians but what gives them the "special sauce" that makes them qualified to design a solar wiring diagram? I'd still check their work and I'm just a lowly software engineer.
Is the issue here just the county covering their ass? If that's the case, what is the role of UL here? How much ass-covering does an AHJ need?
All my roof racking/installation details are stamped by the manufacturer. This is *just* an electrical engineering issue.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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An additional permitted piece we may need is ESS, to get utility's permission to backfeed with it for time-shifting.
If our PV system feeds 10kW into the grid after the sun goes down, possibly the utility's analysis would detect it.
Also, we can add battery inverter in addition to GT PV, so this could be a way for someone with 10kW NEM 1.0 approval to double or so their backfeed.
I'm not sure if lead-acid exception to UL listed ESS remains.
I've bought three Sunny Boy Storage, received one so far. These take the same lithium battery/BMS as the new Sunny Boy Smart Energy. (Too expensive for me to want to buy now.) Unlike Sunny Island, do not have a lead-acid mode. Maybe if I can dummy up some communications I could get it working with 96V nominal battery (so long as 100V or above.)
If our PV system feeds 10kW into the grid after the sun goes down, possibly the utility's analysis would detect it.
Also, we can add battery inverter in addition to GT PV, so this could be a way for someone with 10kW NEM 1.0 approval to double or so their backfeed.
I'm not sure if lead-acid exception to UL listed ESS remains.
I've bought three Sunny Boy Storage, received one so far. These take the same lithium battery/BMS as the new Sunny Boy Smart Energy. (Too expensive for me to want to buy now.) Unlike Sunny Island, do not have a lead-acid mode. Maybe if I can dummy up some communications I could get it working with 96V nominal battery (so long as 100V or above.)
When I installed my system in 2016, I hired a solar engineer who was licensed. That person came out to the property, reviewed with me the system design I had in mind and referred me to a master electrician for further consultation and design. The electrician came to the property and reviewed with me my ideas for the solar. Then he came up with better ways of doing things and worked with the solar engineer. The solar engineer drew out the plans and submitted them for permitting. The master electrician then proceeded to construct the system. I and my adult children assisted by trenching, making conduits, pulling wires, pouring concrete, building forms and all the other stuff at the direction of the master electrician. The electrician did all of the wiring connections. The system was inspected before concrete was poured and after completion. It passed inspection and final permitting. Along the way, the only hiccup I had was in a ground mount that had to be redesigned and for which I hired a structural solar engineer.
It was powered on and never a hiccup.
By being professionally designed and built and being permitted, it added value to the home along with saving on the electric bill. the county building department had no problem with me as the home owner pulling the permit in my name as the contractor.
I think in many areas if you tell the building department that you need to install a custom system to meet your specific needs and property details, submit plans that are professional and give them the names of persons who are licensed and will be working with you to some degree on the project, then all will go well. I think the best thing is always to do the work that you are experienced and comfortable doing to your abilities, hire help when you need it, make certain you have quality tools to get the job done like a pro and lastly don't rush yourself. I often find that thinking about a problem I come across for a few days results in about 4-8 changes I make drawing it out until the last one will work and be the easiest and best to build.
Qualified persons only, Art 690! Why?
For starters, a qualified person knows that manufacturuers written instructions must be followed for each component in a system.
For those that did not follow the instructions, it gave me a good income! (semi retired now).
Structural; I saw a real poor installation this last year.
It was 5000 watts of panels on a home made ground mount. The 6 bag ( 6x60=360lb ) concrete bases (12" diameter, 12 to 16" imbedment) were not deep enough into the ground and had 8 post supporting the whole ground mount system. Should have had 12 posts and the imbedment would have needed to be 54" to meet the snow loading and wind loading for the area. 24" of snow load on it and a wind gust tipped it over.
Same system had non UV rated exposed wiring from the panels to the inverter shed/pump house run above ground.
As a favor to a friend I went out and looked at the new system that replaced the above after a lightning strike. System inverter and charge controller had let out the magic smoke. I didn't think the lightning strike was close enough to do this type of damage to the system until I saw there were no surge arrestors on anything and also no ground rods. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. You just can't make this stuff up.
I know this is why we all come to forums such as this one, so we don't make mistakes like the above.
Any DIY'er can perform a good install that will pass an inspection with minor corrections if the manufacturers written instructions are followed for each system component.
For starters, a qualified person knows that manufacturuers written instructions must be followed for each component in a system.
For those that did not follow the instructions, it gave me a good income! (semi retired now).
Structural; I saw a real poor installation this last year.
It was 5000 watts of panels on a home made ground mount. The 6 bag ( 6x60=360lb ) concrete bases (12" diameter, 12 to 16" imbedment) were not deep enough into the ground and had 8 post supporting the whole ground mount system. Should have had 12 posts and the imbedment would have needed to be 54" to meet the snow loading and wind loading for the area. 24" of snow load on it and a wind gust tipped it over.
Same system had non UV rated exposed wiring from the panels to the inverter shed/pump house run above ground.
As a favor to a friend I went out and looked at the new system that replaced the above after a lightning strike. System inverter and charge controller had let out the magic smoke. I didn't think the lightning strike was close enough to do this type of damage to the system until I saw there were no surge arrestors on anything and also no ground rods. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. You just can't make this stuff up.
I know this is why we all come to forums such as this one, so we don't make mistakes like the above.
Any DIY'er can perform a good install that will pass an inspection with minor corrections if the manufacturers written instructions are followed for each system component.
dougbert
Solar Addict
A FREE state
dspearce
New Member
When a particular version of the NEC is adopted by a state or local jurisdiction, it doesn't necessarily apply to the letter. In the WA state, the
Washington Administrative code/ Revised Code of Washington provide owner exceptions as well as a level of discretion on the part of the AHJ.
Owners can pull permits, do the work and are simply held to the same inspection process (I'm not in the solar field so there may be some exceptions that I'm unaware of).
Requiring that persons contracting or performing a professional service be licensed and bonded or that owner installed systems be inspected seems like a reasonable consumer protection to me. Case in point, research Electoshock Drowning (https://www.electricshockdrowning.org/). I took a class with Kevin Ritz and was surprised to learn that many jurisdictions have 0 permitting or inspection rules for marina electrical systems. The safety concerns there should be evident...
Washington Administrative code/ Revised Code of Washington provide owner exceptions as well as a level of discretion on the part of the AHJ.
Owners can pull permits, do the work and are simply held to the same inspection process (I'm not in the solar field so there may be some exceptions that I'm unaware of).
Requiring that persons contracting or performing a professional service be licensed and bonded or that owner installed systems be inspected seems like a reasonable consumer protection to me. Case in point, research Electoshock Drowning (https://www.electricshockdrowning.org/). I took a class with Kevin Ritz and was surprised to learn that many jurisdictions have 0 permitting or inspection rules for marina electrical systems. The safety concerns there should be evident...
teal95
Solar Enthusiast
I have done many "owner" building projects and gotten them inspected so when I went to pull a permit for my solar I was surprised when he said no, for solar it has to be a licensed electrician. I have an electrician I use who said he would pull the permit, but he knew nothing of solar. Soon after that he directed me to a friend of his who does solar. He got the drawings done, pulled the permit and ordered most of the supplies. I have done virtually all of the work with him looking it over a couple of times. I still have to install the e-stops on the barn (main system location) and house and then I should be ready for inspection. I'll have the electrician look it over one more time before I call the inspector.
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