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diy solar

Adding solar array/system to outbuilding with (subpanel)400 ft from main panel/and array/system

Ive been told by utility that my service at drop and meter would not need to be changed were I to upgrade to 200 amp main service panel.

Sounds good; maybe like me you need to tell them if you increase loads to 160A (80% of 200A) continuous. Or add any big loads.

The meter is bidirectional and records net production from PV system.

The barn is fed from a 60 amp breaker in the main service panel. That panel is a 125 amp bus panel with 100 amp main breaker.

Already fed with 4.2kW PV system? Oh, I think that must be the existing line-side tap.
3.8kW is 16A, OK to backfeed main panel.

In fact, 125A busbar x 120% = 150A,
150A - 100A main breaker = 50A backfed PV breaker allowed.
50A x 80% = 40A backfeed allowed.
40A x 240V = 9.6kW

I'm not sure if 60A breaker to barn is allowed when backfed with PV. Does the rule consider the 20A breaker used for PV in barn? Or the 60A breaker in main panel? Possibly you're required to replace with 50A breaker.

Looks to me like you could have up to 9.6kW at the barn, not just 3.8kW, because that is a 125A panel at house not 100A.
That would be some serious power.

The main service panel at house has PV system 240volts 16.7 amps at line side tap (before 100 amp main breaker)
how do we get 160 amps drawn in that scenario? ( wouldn't 100Amp main service panel breaker trip?)

You're right, it won't. Unless you draw 60A from line-side tap. That would only happen if you put a load panel or a hybrid inverter on it replacing GT PV inverter.

I love the idea of upgrading panel and am smiling at how you are prepped and waiting for PGE. I have NYSEG and they have been testing the limits of contingency budgeting this winter with major windstorms having crews out for weeks at a time.

Well, waiting for city reinspection at this point. Then comes PG&E.
 
Sounds good; maybe like me you need to tell them if you increase loads to 160A (80% of 200A) continuous. Or add any big loads.



Already fed with 4.2kW PV system? Oh, I think that must be the existing line-side tap.
Yes current 14 year old system is 4.2KW of Sunpower 210 panels and Sunpower 4000 watt GT inverter. PV shutoff, then PV meter, then line side tap at top of main service panel into utility feed from outside (pole drop) meter.
3.8kW is 16A, OK to backfeed main panel.

In fact, 125A busbar x 120% = 150A,
150A - 100A main breaker = 50A backfed PV breaker allowed.
50A x 80% = 40A backfeed allowed.
40A x 240V = 9.6kW

I'm not sure if 60A breaker to barn is allowed when backfed with PV. Does the rule consider the 20A breaker used for PV in barn? Or the 60A breaker in main panel? Possibly you're required to replace with 50A breaker.
I think that I do need to downsize the 60 to a 50 amp breaker
Then at Barn subpanel I would be able to use 40 amp breaker at opposite end of busbar for backfeed of (up to 9.6kw) of PV generation?
Seems amazing, but great.

I'm leaning towards 10 400 watt panels or thereabouts- do you or anyone on the forum have opinions on brands dealers (and a good inexpensive GT inverter?

My plans are/have now evolved into just adding GT capacity now and waiting out a few more years on this legacy system on house. When I replace that I will go with a full hybrid system with battery backup capability (and a 200amp main service panel) :)
Looks to me like you could have up to 9.6kW at the barn, not just 3.8kW, because that is a 125A panel at house not 100A.
That would be some serious power.



You're right, it won't. Unless you draw 60A from line-side tap. That would only happen if you put a load panel or a hybrid inverter on it replacing GT PV inverter.



Well, waiting for city reinspection at this point. Then comes PG&E.
 
Use a 50A breaker not 40A at barn when backfeeding 9600W; otherwise at 100% and may trip.
Inverter should have specs for allowed breaker. The breakers and panel busbar should obey 120% rule. Or "line" side tap and separate breaker/fuse.

60A breaker where you have it works just fine, only question is whether code allows it; you could install 15kW of PV and backfeed 60A through a 60A breaker (may or may not trip.) Me, I would install 50A if required for inspection. After that ...

The question will be what GT PV features are required in your jurisdiction.
Latest features require latest models. I like old model Sunny Boy, but have to use either SB -41 or (not yet available) SBSE for my new installs.
You may be able to pick up sufficiently new model inverter on eBay like I did.

Then keep an eye out for deals on the hybrid you want, new or used.
 
Would this be with no DC coupled PV at house, all PV at barn and AC coupled to SolArk?
Last I heard, SolArk recommended having DC coupled PV greater than AC coupled.
Yes, this was the idea. I sort of forgot SolArk recommends that after seeing success stories with 18kpv in 100% AC coupled config. In my defense it's because searching multiple times for a technical explanation for why SolArk needs that came up empty.
Alternatives would be a battery inverter at the house which fully supports AC coupling (e.g. Sunny Island)
Sure.

But the SMA battery inverters have wimpy surge. Any other brands support remote transfer (disconnect) switch that could be located at grid connection?
Enphase calls it Microgrid Interconnection Device. Couple of the Chinese companies have these, and I think EG4 teased something that could be one in the recent trade show.

You would still need to pull a control wire all the way to the barn to connect to the grid forming inverter. And this wire needs to be reasonably well protected.

All of these AC coupled schemes (including SolArk if no DC) have the problem that if loads drain battery, system shuts off and PV can't recharge it. Also if load exceeds PV during the day, battery drains.
Having a generator around for dark start or practicing how to adjust the low voltage / low SoC cutoff mitigates this.

As well, even with a DC-coupled system you need a dark start procedure written down (and potentially support hardware to bootstrap) if you have Rapid Shutdown.

i do not really have space at house (feeding main service panel) for this so am exploring the barn
Hmm. Another idea if the space is constrained in the house is to pull a new #1 feeder from the barn. And manually switch the house to this if power is out.

Or put in a shed near the house to hold batteries and inverters.

You can pull CAT6 at this time too for control connection (200ft is really long though, you might need official RS485 or whatever cable). At this distance you might want to use a digital energy meter instead of sending an analog CT signal that length. I don't know what the limit is of analog CT but 200ft sounds like a lot.

Don't know how far away CT are allowed, but CT before barn panel could seek to supply barn loads. CT before house panel could seek to supply all loads.
CT before house panel would have better ROI for the system.

As I said above need to contact manufacturer to see if they recommend analog or digital.

Would Absolutely consider going that route I believe you had helped me determine that 3800 watts would be my maximum solar on barn given the 100 amp main panel and 60 amp backfed breaker? Would sincerely appreciate opinions on panels and GT inverter if I were to go that route.
I think you can go up to 100A total with no service upgrade, so that is 19.2kW AC (subtract out your current system). And you can overpanel DC vs AC to stay below 19.2kW. For instance, if you put 40kW of solar panels but limit export to 19.2kW. In the summer you will throw away a lot of production during the peak of the day, but your extended hours production goes up.

If allowed by POCO (electrical code allows it) you can add a 70A line side tap leading to a breaker older or small subpanel with 70A breaker in it. Then move the barn feeder over to this box.

(This is assuming your existing is a 30A breaker on the line side tap. Or is it 25A?)

The 200A upgrade is potentially straight forward. They could put a 200A panel next to your meter, and then feed your current main from that.

If you already have a 200A capable meter base, you can potentially just upgrade the conductors from meter to main to allow adding up to 200A of backfeed breakers.

how do we get 160 amps drawn in that scenario? ( wouldn't 100Amp main service panel breaker trip?)
The 160A is the hypothetical max backfeed (80% of 200A) if you upgrade the path to the POCO to 200A.

The 160A will never get pushed into your main (can still be protected by 100A). The main will only draw as much power as the loads want.

I'm not sure if 60A breaker to barn is allowed when backfed with PV. Does the rule consider the 20A breaker used for PV in barn? Or the 60A breaker in main panel? Possibly you're required to replace with 50A breaker.

Most of the clauses for bus calculations use the actual output nameplate amps (some don't and use OCPD). A lot of designers I think just use breakers as shorthand.
 
My plans are/have now evolved into just adding GT capacity now and waiting out a few more years on this legacy system on house. When I replace that I will go with a full hybrid system with battery backup capability (and a 200amp main service panel) :)
Yes, I would recommend checking with POCO that you can still get 1:1 net metering, and that you can add more line side tap. The inverter would have to come in before your production meter. Probably adding a small 100A combiner panel there would be smart; the panel would combine your old and new inverter, before sending it through the disconnect (probably too small for 100A) and then the meter (hopefully can handle 100A).

After that, figure out what size GT system will satisfy your increased consumption.

The conduit all might need to go up a size. It looks like 3/4, which should be good up to #8 or #6 (50A / 60A). That would allow 2.5x more kW-AC than what you have now. I assume the conduit is pretty short, so it's really not a huge deal.
 
Yes, I would recommend checking with POCO that you can still get 1:1 net metering, and that you can add more line side tap. The inverter would have to come in before your production meter. Probably adding a small 100A combiner panel there would be smart; the panel would combine your old and new inverter, before sending it through the disconnect (probably too small for 100A) and then the meter (hopefully can handle 100A).

After that, figure out what size GT system will satisfy your increased consumption.

The conduit all might need to go up a size. It looks like 3/4, which should be good up to #8 or #6 (50A / 60A). That would allow 2.5x more kW-AC than what you have now. I assume the conduit is pretty short, so it's really not a huge deal.
Hello!

Spoke with utility yesterday they are still 1:1 net metering and they "encourage" me to size my solar to whatever my needs are. The rep was aware of how different that is in many other places/utilities. but said that they encourage homeowners to contribute through green production whatever they can. They said my interconnect was good and that updating/scaling according to current needs is great.
Wow, ok.
They also said switching to a 2 segment TOU billing plan would save me money on charging the EV at lat night. My net solar generation would not be time of day measured, according to the rep.

1) I'm going to have my current 4.2 kw array repaired (panel is warrantied)
2)I'd like to add up to+/- 7Kw at barn, backfed (as per our long discussions here)
Here's a new question: My roof space for the barn array is 12' x 24' with ideal sun positioning
Is it possible to get 8KW of output in that somewhat limited space - many panels are in the 71"x 41" wide range, so I cant fit more than 12 panels (2 rows of 6 in portrait layout)
12x400 only 4.8kw
Any ideas on how to get the most output from realistically 10' x 22' footprint?

Thanks Greg
 
Most efficient panels are rated 22%, 220W (STC) per square meter.

Beyond that, need more area.
After top row, could have rack holding 3rd row of panels higher, maybe tilted steeper if array series/parallel supports.
Have panels extend beyond eaves.
Mount on side of barn (avoid shading by eaves.)
Ground mounts or "patio roof"
 
So with limited roof space and 1:1 I think you want to size the AC side to minimize clipping, so forget about my 2x overpanel examples.

In terms of the shape and dimensions. Those are determined by cell layout and cell form factor (IE what production equipment was used at factory). For instance you can have a family of solar panels that are 6 cells wide, in 54, 60, 66, 72, 78 cell size. They grow in the length dimension. In width dimension cells/modules that output 13A (newer production equipment) are wider than the ones that do 10A. 13A is I believe easier to find in the U.S. right now than 10a. For new stock.

So if your problem is the length, then that is easy because the factory puts out longer and shorter anyway pretty easily.

Also consider just slapping them down in landscape. It affects ROI because more racking, but probably less of an effect than worse roof facing

You can also do modeling with PVwatts on the other facings to see what the reduction in output translates to in LCOE and ROI.

I am not sure what the best way is to be a pro at finding modules of the right size. Some of the installers here seem to know the secrets. A lot of the DIYers here focus on finding the best deal irregardless of shape , because they have unlimited space.
 
Most efficient panels are rated 22%, 220W (STC) per square meter.
You likely have to pay a premium for that last 1% and the extra 0.25-0.5%/year degradation guarantee buying from someone like REC (not sure if you can get that from the random Chinese panel companies, even bankable tier, or if you can trust them to be around in 20 years).
 
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