Assuming you pay $0.12/KWh, can you ever come out ahead going full offgrid?

[Nobodybusiness]

Chill, Snowflake.

Russia did it. Liberals favorite boogie man.

 

[Ekard]

Hello everyone, I'm from Ukraine, sorry for the English, I'm writing through a translator

My rate 0,042$
My 1.2 kW power plant costs $1500 at my tariff and the presence of the sun, the payback is 47 years
Now we have a war, and there is electricity for 4 hours, then there is no 4 hours, and it has been like this for several months

the price doesn’t always matter, it’s just the availability, the ability to charge the phone, walkie-talkie and watch the news

my wife used to laugh at my hobby, now she is happy, we have lighting, the neighbors are dark

this is my little experience

peace and sun

Thank you for your perspective.

We, in the USA and Canada could learn much by listening more to people like you.

I considered my 1KW/hr system also very small to be useful for much. But your system is providing critical backup. I think even enough to keep your food cold in refrigerator.

We think we are immune from having situations like yours. Maybe you never imagined you would have such a situation. Being prepared and never needing it it better than needing it and not being prepared.

 

[curiouscarbon]

This thread has a lot of valuable information for solar builders. Let's prevent deportation to Chit Chat Land ?

 

[GregTR]

@Alkaline

I think the answer in all Residential cases is YES
So here are the numbers I am seeing in Texas:

1600kwh/kw/year (grid tied) -battery system inefficiency (~10%) =1440kwh/kw/year
Let's do a 2000kwh per month target

-16.7kW of solar needed @ $9k
-30kwh of LFP batteries at 46% nighttime vs daytime usage @$9k
-12kw ac output inverter/ inverter stack with mppts for DC coupling @ $3k for 6.5x2 or $8300 for solark 15k
-roof racking (ground mount will add) at $.10/watt @ $1600
-Wiring at $700
-Rapid shutdown at $.05/watt @ $800

$24100 for "basic"

$29400 for SLRK//Deye

if average life of parts is 20 years then 480000 kwh in the lifespan

24100 + rebuild fee x2 ($1000 for stack) $26100 Divide by 480,000 kwh = .054/kwh - 30% = 3.8 cents per kWh
if your cost of capital is a 20 year 6% loan then $18270 after credit = $31414 total payments = 6.5 cents per kWh
If you get an installer to be fair and do the work for $15k in 2 days tops then you say $24100+ $15000 - 30% = $27,370 = 5.7 cents per kWh
if your cost of capital is a 20 year 6% loan then $27370 after credit = $47060 total payments = 9.8 cents per kWh
All of this is under the 12-cent mark and 12 cents WILL go up at a rate exceeding inflation over the next 20 years

there are other pitfalls/ mods here but the 20 year life is unfair to the panels, they are 33% + of the costs and they will go for 30 years, ground mount bifacial may have a higher ROI as well, SLRK/Deye style inverters add 20% here but that is still in the ballpark, and we know those are coming down drastically in the next 2 years (which will make installing easier and ownership trouble less) The SLRK/Deye style most likely will have an overhaul cost at 10-12 years average, Schneider may outlast them but will not see a reduction in costs

This math is awfully conservative on costs and I dare anyone to be able to do it for this much without sweat equity. I would also be amazed if you can find someone to do permitting and install on a 17kW system that you brought to them for $15k.

My similar sized system (19.4kW with 38 kWh battery) cost $71k turn-key installed and I thought I got a hell of a deal.

With my setup, after tax credits at $0.12 my ROI would be 16.5 years which is pretty long but I'm also looking at it from a partial grid independence and security perspective as well as I'm pretty confident that electricity rates will go up in the future.

Having said that, in Texas, solar is a marginal investment at best, even at really competitive prices and it's not for everyone, most would probably do better by investing the money in something else if pure ROI is your sole driver for the purchase.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I've always looked at it this way: if you want to go off-grid, build specifically to go off-grid. That means lower consumption, alternatives, and preferably a location where you can get your own fuel (e.g. wood) for heating. In those locations, what would it cost to hook up to the grid? In my case, around 10k€ - about the same amount I spec'ed my system for, now three years ago.

In the mean time, energy prices went up, etc. so yes, that's one aspect - but there is another important one: by doing a DIY system like this you gain knowledge. This knowledge is valuable, because now you can use that knowledge to consult, to start a business, to make a product. Something you wouldn't have been truly able to do when you just connect to the grid.

The knowledge I gained from building my off-grid place here in Finland, and the ability to use that knowledge to build some side business around it, has already paid for the solar system...

 

[Danke]

This math is awfully conservative on costs and I dare anyone to be able to do it for this much without sweat equity. I would also be amazed if you can find someone to do permitting and install on a 17kW system that you brought to them for $15k.

My similar sized system (19.4kW with 38 kWh battery) cost $71k turn-key installed and I thought I got a hell of a deal.

With my setup, after tax credits at $0.12 my ROI would be 16.5 years which is pretty long but I'm also looking at it from a partial grid independence and security perspective as well as I'm pretty confident that electricity rates will go up in the future.

Having said that, in Texas, solar is a marginal investment at best, even at really competitive prices and it's not for everyone, most would probably do better by investing the money in something else if pure ROI is your sole driver for the purchase.

Yes, about a year ago I was getting quotes and I couldn’t believe how expensive it was going to be for what I wanted. The guy who is an installer (mostly off grid) that I bought some stuff from said when I get done with my DIY, the system would be worth a lot of money because it will be so large. I figure if it adds half the value it would’ve cost from a professional installation, then it has paid for itself by the home resale value.

 

[ImAnIdiotPleaseBePatient]

I have very reliable utility. (For now)
I'm planning for retirement with no utility bill.
You just have to shop around for really good deals.
I'm installing 40kw inverting power, 60kw solar, and at least 200kwh of battery storage. And I am doing it for under $20k USD.
ROI calculated at 10 years. But probably less with the way utility prices are going.

That is insanely cheap for 60kw solar, 40kw inverter, and 200kwh batteries. Tips?

 

[Rednecktek]

Strategically Transfer Equipment to Alternate Location?

?

 

[ImAnIdiotPleaseBePatient]

Don't put solar in to save money. And definitely don't put solar in DIY to save money. You can likely spend the time it will take you to DIY working and earning more money to cover grid than you would ever hope to save with solar.

Put solar in because you don't want to be reliant on the grid.

There is a hybrid option now that gives you a little power off grid. I’m paying a solar company in Florida to install 35kw of decent solar panels (Qcell 400 black), IQ8+ (which will result in moderate clipping), and the Enphase system that lets you get a decent amount of backup without a battery in a power outage situation.

Price total before tax incentives is 2.25 a watt, with 1/1 net metering (for now ?), but the installer said they may be able to let me back up 8 circuits instead of the typical 4 because of the size of the install.

My thoughts were during a hurricane, it would be nice to be able to boil water, cook in a toaster oven, run fridge, freezer, lights, during the daytime.

I also plan on doing an offgrid project in the garage, but thats just for extra emergency power… and honestly, mostly for fun and learning.

 

[robby]

That is insanely cheap for 60kw solar, 40kw inverter, and 200kwh batteries. Tips?

What Tim is not telling you is that it also requires tradings in two Kidneys and several quarts of blood.
Mrs. Electric now has to go easy on the Wine and salty foods.

 

[ImAnIdiotPleaseBePatient]

What Tim is not telling you is that it also requires tradings in two Kidneys and several quarts of blood.
Mrs. Electric now has to go easy on the Wine and salty foods.

where do i sign?

 

[timselectric]

That is insanely cheap for 60kw solar, 40kw inverter, and 200kwh batteries. Tips?

Have patience.
Never pay full price for anything.

 

[timselectric]

What Tim is not telling you is that it also requires tradings in two Kidneys and several quarts of blood.
Mrs. Electric now has to go easy on the Wine and salty foods.

Only blood and liver.
Kidneys don't grow back. lol

 

[EastTexCowboy]

Have patience.
Never pay full price for anything.

While I'm extremely envious ? of Tim's setup and how he managed to keep the cost so low, I think he's the exception and not the norm. That said, you can obviously save a lot of money if you use any of his methods and are patient. The best of all worlds would be if he would come and do another one for me. For practice, of course. I wouldn't charge anything.

 

[timselectric]

The one thing that I can do. That your average diy'er probably can't. Is get the general electrical equipment at a huge discount. (Or sometimes free)
Or maybe they can, just not as easily.

 

[Alkaline]

Lots of good info, however, what is the minimum size of battery, I was thinking it would need to be about 60 KW, so that you can go a few days with cloudy weather, but it seems most people are saying 30KW. My plan would be to avoid the grid as much as possible. Entergy charges $24.99 just to have a connection even if you don't use a single watt-hour so thats my minimum cost no matter what.

I don't know what they would pay for the watts generated so I would just never even bother trying to sell anything back to them, in fact If I did this system it would be via a transfer switch so the setup is fully grid isolated.

 

[timselectric]

what is the minimum size of battery

That would be based on how long you want to run without sunshine. And what your loads would be during that time.

 

[EastTexCowboy]

Lots of good info, however, what is the minimum size of battery, I was thinking it would need to be about 60 KW, so that you can go a few days with cloudy weather, but it seems most people are saying 30KW. My plan would be to avoid the grid as much as possible. Entergy charges $24.99 just to have a connection even if you don't use a single watt-hour so thats my minimum cost no matter what.

I don't know what they would pay for the watts generated so I would just never even bother, in fact If I did this system it would be via a transfer switch so the setup is fully grid isolated.

I've got 30kWh of batteries now but I would certainly like to go up to 60 and will probably do so within the next year. Frankly, 30 kWh is not going to last long if you have multiple rainy days. Of course we rarely have rainy days around gulf coast Texas ... wait, maybe that's West Texas.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I started with 30kWh and doubled it last year. The reason: increase the days of autonomy in case of bad weather, but also to be able to use more of the energy I generate. In off-grid situations, you use it, or lose it...

 

[timselectric]

My system is designed for 3 days of autonomy, running everything as usual. Can get 7 days, if I cut back on nonessential loads.
But I am already planning for possible future expansion of storage. I like my nonessential loads.

 

[Mike 134]

I started with 30kWh and doubled it last year. The reason: increase the days of autonomy in case of bad weather, but also to be able to use more of the energy I generate. In off-grid situations, you use it, or lose it...

I'm near Chicago and January has just been brutal with cloudy days. My 7.2KW system can make 30KWH in January with 100% sun, but I'm averaging just 6KWH/day so far. Batteries would have been dead weeks ago unless I want to read by candlelight so the furnace could run.

 

[Hedges]

Do you guys not have any standing charges? Electricity cost in Spain varies but generally 12 - 15 cents / kWh but once the standing charges, tax, meter rental etc etc are added on it works out nearer to 60 cents / kWh.

Mine is $8/month minimum (under NEM 1.0) I think it may be $12/month under NEM 2.0
Power is now $0.25 to $0.50/kWh depending on time of day.

what is the minimum size of battery, I was thinking it would need to be about 60 KW, so that you can go a few days with cloudy weather, but it seems most people are saying 30KW.

One night's consumption.
For me, that might be 14 kWh (usable) if I shut of some extraneous loads.

My PV produces that in a bit over 1 hour of full sun, so during the day I can charge in 3.5 hours (at 0.2C), absorb for a couple hours, and power loads several times more than at night.

Light overcast, I might get 10 ~ 20% the output, heavy overcast just a couple percent. It is a fair-weather system, so several days without sun would be several days without power.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I'm near Chicago and January has just been brutal with cloudy days. My 7.2KW system can make 30KWH in January with 100% sun, but I'm averaging just 6KWH/day so far. Batteries would have been dead weeks ago unless I want to read by candlelight so the furnace could run.

I'm not making any real power between November and end of January, so I use a generator (bio diesel) to charge my batteries. I only use 2 to 5 kWh per day (depending) so the 60kWh gives me about 12 days worst case and 30 days without sitting in the dark. Running the generator once a week keeps things ticking along nicely until I hit February and then I start getting excesses (which I can use with a heat pump for heating the house so I need less wood).

 

[Danke]

Have patience.
Never pay full price for anything.

“Patience is a virtue, but I don’t have the time!”

 

[sunsurfer]

Can you put a price on freedom? Is your belief system compatible with the globalist agenda?

Cut them strings(no pun intended).