Avoiding sulfation and loss of capacity: How frequently must I charge to 100%?

[Goboatingnow]

Audis use agm batteries.

Must have a look again , big dealer near me is a friend. Most common ive seen in Audi is Bosch s5008;

 

[Checkthisout]

Isnt that typically only on start stop ,I never designed for start stop cars.

No. They started using bms long before auto start/stop became a thing.

If for nothing else, to shut down battery juice if the customer uses accessory for too long.

 

[teal95]

Isnt that typically only on start stop ,I never designed for start stop cars.

Nope. I've been working on old tech trucks and they've had the sensors since I started back in auto in 2013.

 

[Goboatingnow]

Maybe AGM is a start stop thing

 

[Goboatingnow]

Mostly start stop batteries Ive seen are EFB types maybe AGM is more popular stateside

 

[Checkthisout]

Maybe AGM is a start stop thing

Probably in a roundabout way. Among other benefits, many AGMS do not have a charging current limit and can be brought back up to full charge quickly without such a strong impact on battery life.

 

[Substrate]

Optimas in particular are usually double the money of the flooded equivalent, and rarely last twice as long, making them more expensive over time. So it is usually true that an AGM starting battery in a car is... reasonable.. justifiable.. but not cheaper in the end. It just reduces the frequency of your battery replacements in return for more up-front dollars.

By extension, this is also why the Walmart $64 value batteries are probably the cheapest over time. They cost about half what the 'regular' line costs, but in all likelihood probably last longer than half as long. Making the cheapest battery up front, also possibly the cheapest over time.

OMG! It's the 2000's all over again with the anti-Optima sentiment, and why Walmart $64 battery argument is the better bet. Mostly because one can warranty-scam the free-replacement.

Or buying one from the back of a guy's van and then complaining it doesn't charge up after being left to sulfate for 4 years. Bad Optima. And they won't even give me a free replacement with no proof-of-purchase or validation of getting it from an authorized dealer.

And shame on them for not honoring the warranty when I'm using a starter red-top for using my winch, but I'm not going to tell them that. Or my vehicular charging system is just too poor and full of parasitic loads to keep it healthy - but I'll just warranty scam the Walmart battery.

I was told to charge it. So I put my 1.25A battery tender on it for 5 days, and it started hissing. What a piece of junk!

Yeah, things were GREAT when it was Gates-Rubber. But that run was from a shuttered battery factory from the 1940's, and the rejects were high. Almost went under until Gylling, a SWEDISH company saved it with profits going there. The nationalists conveniently forget that.

I won't go there. Too much wasted time. But ah, the good old days are back. The EXACT SAME comments from 20 years ago. What a time-warp. Nearly copy-n-paste. I had more hair then.

 

[Substrate]

Sorry for the outburst gang.

Just realize that *nothing* we say here has any sway - they are still in business.

Those who know how to charge them and take care of them have minimal problems despite where they are made. And yes, Enersys / Odyssey rocks too, love them as well, however they don't put up with consumer bs scams.

UPDATE: hard to believe, but get the scoop on how badly their batteries suck straight from them. I'm amazed that they even wrote this. They have *always* tried to be upfront

https://www.optimabatteries.com/experience/blog/optima-batteries-suck-the-truth/

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I'll elaborate since "garbage" isn't particularly descriptive.

Direct experience with several dozen 12V battery maintenance events with the 04-09 Prius yields the following:

In Phoenix, AZ:

Yuasa made Toyota 12V batteries typically last 6-10 years.
Parts store batteries last 2-3 years.
Optima yellow tops last 2-4 years, cost 25% more than Toyota, cost 50% more than parts store.

All are AGM. All are mounted inside the vehicle cargo area (not in the hot engine compartment). All vehicles had properly functioning charging systems.

This is essentially a standby application. The Prius 12V does nothing more than power the computers for a few seconds at 10-20A (0.25 - 0.5C). Once the hybrid battery is connected, 12V power/charging is provided by the DC-DC converter powered by the HV system. The 12V is charged to 14.2V and then floats at 13.6V almost immediately. The Prius 12V battery is erroneously referred to as the starter battery. It does not start the engine. The HV battery spins MG1 with 30A and about 220VDC to start the engine.

In the only incident of its kind, an Optima at just under two years in service vented aggressively into the passenger compartment. It blew off the vent tube and vented with enough force to produce a high pitched whistling sound. The entire car wreaked of that over-charged sulfur stench... at 14.2V. The battery was so hot, it was painful to the touch.

Opima warrantied the battery.

In my experience it is a premium priced product that underperforms less expensive options.

 

[Checkthisout]

I'll elaborate since "garbage" isn't particularly descriptive.

Direct experience with several dozen 12V battery maintenance events with the 04-09 Prius yields the following:

In Phoenix, AZ:

Yuasa made Toyota 12V batteries typically last 6-10 years.
Parts store batteries last 2-3 years.
Optima yellow tops last 2-4 years, cost 25% more than Toyota, cost 50% more than parts store.

All are AGM. All are mounted inside the vehicle cargo area (not in the hot engine compartment). All vehicles had properly functioning charging systems.

This is essentially a standby application. The Prius 12V does nothing more than power the computers for a few seconds at 10-20A (0.25 - 0.5C). Once the hybrid battery is connected, 12V power/charging is provided by the DC-DC converter powered by the HV system. The 12V is charged to 14.2V and then floats at 13.6V almost immediately. The Prius 12V battery is erroneously referred to as the starter battery. It does not start the engine. The HV battery spins MG1 with 30A and about 220VDC to start the engine.

In the only incident of its kind, an Optima at just under two years in service vented aggressively into the passenger compartment. It blew off the vent tube and vented with enough force to produce a high pitched whistling sound. The entire car wreaked of that over-charged sulfur stench... at 14.2V. The battery was so hot, it was painful to the touch.

Opima warrantied the battery.

In my experience it is a premium priced product that underperforms less expensive options.

Yup. Optima sucks

 

[Substrate]

Yeah, they totally suck. The battery is expensive, but make sure you NEVER give it a full charge with your own charger first, to make sure that the cells are never properly balanced and fully charged at the outset. And that means taking it to 14.7v CV. At least once, but most consumers do the drop-in and cross fingers thing.

Instead, just do a parking-lot swapout and rely on a vehicle to never give the optima it's "first birthday" charge. Quite important. Especially if you were handed one off the shelf gathering dust for a year.

Do the same thing for any series connected 24 or 48v solar bank. Just slap em in. Never give them a good first charge on your own charger.

You guys continue on how they SUCK. If they don't work in your application, switch back. No skin off my back, and can't get riled over it any more.

It makes me mean, and feel like winning an argument, rather than discussing technicalities, and that's bad.

 

[Skypower]

I'll elaborate since "garbage" isn't particularly descriptive.

Direct experience with several dozen 12V battery maintenance events with the 04-09 Prius yields the following:

In Phoenix, AZ:

Yuasa made Toyota 12V batteries typically last 6-10 years.
Parts store batteries last 2-3 years.
Optima yellow tops last 2-4 years, cost 25% more than Toyota, cost 50% more than parts store.

All are AGM. All are mounted inside the vehicle cargo area (not in the hot engine compartment). All vehicles had properly functioning charging systems.

This is essentially a standby application. The Prius 12V does nothing more than power the computers for a few seconds at 10-20A (0.25 - 0.5C). Once the hybrid battery is connected, 12V power/charging is provided by the DC-DC converter powered by the HV system. The 12V is charged to 14.2V and then floats at 13.6V almost immediately. The Prius 12V battery is erroneously referred to as the starter battery. It does not start the engine. The HV battery spins MG1 with 30A and about 220VDC to start the engine.

In the only incident of its kind, an Optima at just under two years in service vented aggressively into the passenger compartment. It blew off the vent tube and vented with enough force to produce a high pitched whistling sound. The entire car wreaked of that over-charged sulfur stench... at 14.2V. The battery was so hot, it was painful to the touch.

Opima warrantied the battery.

In my experience it is a premium priced product that underperforms less expensive options.

I’ve tried Optima some years ago and my results were also not Optimal (sorry!).
Tried the different top colors for different applications. To me it seems like a market diversification ploy. Have they gotten better since then? Perhaps, till I see personal proof (not my dime) they lost me. Optima brand and ALL the Chinese AGM batteries in the shiny black case with white text on the sides I avoid like the plague. A lot bad AGM’s have ruined the thinking about them. Quality AGMs have a place where they are the best for the job as well as a bad choice. High temperature like under a hot car hood is bad. Equalization or desulfurization charge is NOT needed should be turned OFF because it can cause an AGM to over heat and can cause the vent to pop.
They can draw power from the alternator more aggressively than a standard battery so if the alternator was under size or incapable of thermal overload it may fail. Quality AGM’s are about half as likely to get sulfated as wet cells. They get sulfated for the exact same reasons. AGMs are more difficult to desulfate than wet cells but “pulse technology” seems to be emerging way to deal with it. The primary advantages are no fumes (when not overcharged) so it’s more desirable within a living space. No maintenance period. No spill. High currents, charge and discharge. Higher efficiency of energy transfer. Existing working systems may exclude the need/cost/criteria to change from a keeping/replacing a wet lead acid battery. Just nice to know all the options. Edit; I love Lifepo4, but they don’t like just waiting around for months at a high state of charge unlike a lead based battery.

 

[Goboatingnow]

AGM is a poor choice for battery that may experience PSOC , or partial state of charge. Domestic supply in boats and RV are notoriously poor at providing reliable 100% charge. I’ve seen more AGMs die in campers and boats.

A conventional wet sealed battery is often better in many applications then more expensive AGM a.

Note there is simply no need to 100% charge LFP. if your intended usage suggests long periods of inactivity then charge to 80% or 90%. Then they’ll last forever

 

[Skypower]

Deleted

 

[Substrate]

Whew, I refuse to get excited and keep it light.

Realize that when dealing with Optima or Odyssey, we are talking about pure-lead, not conventional agm's, which consist of recycled lead. They have different requirements, such as the need to have at least ONE decent charge before service. That means YOU do the first one, not your vehicle's.

OH well, AGM - the originator of "drop in" mentality abuse!

 

[Checkthisout]

Yeah, they totally suck. The battery is expensive, but make sure you NEVER give it a full charge with your own charger first, to make sure that the cells are never properly balanced and fully charged at the outset. And that means taking it to 14.7v CV. At least once, but most consumers do the drop-in and cross fingers thing.

Instead, just do a parking-lot swapout and rely on a vehicle to never give the optima it's "first birthday" charge. Quite important. Especially if you were handed one off the shelf gathering dust for a year.

Do the same thing for any series connected 24 or 48v solar bank. Just slap em in. Never give them a good first charge on your own charger.

You guys continue on how they SUCK. If they don't work in your application, switch back. No skin off my back, and can't get riled over it any more.

It makes me mean, and feel like winning an argument, rather than discussing technicalities, and that's bad.

If it's any consolation, we swapped the gils out of two of our planes and replaced them with dual Optima blue tops (to get 24v) they are being tended with those battery minder tenders you linked to earlier.

FYI, you're a treasure trove of info. Those minders you say work on the Gils are hopefully ok for the dual Optima setup we have now.

 

[altenergy20]

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