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BMS (Battery Murdering System)

ArthurEld

Solar Wizard
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
2,382
Location
Palm Harbor, Florida
I've been searching for BMS information and it is surprising to see so many people blaming the BMS for ruining their batteries.
I assume the problem is usually from improper top balance. But some people have overcharged a bunch of cells and blamed it on the BMS. I don't get it.
The charge controller is supposed to stop charging before the voltage gets too high. Then the BMS is supposed to stop the charging before a cell gets too high.
How can people repeatedly mess up batteries? I don't want that to happen to me. :cry:
 
There are a lot of parameter settings for a BMS. I have two BMS and made minimal changes to one, and thought I had done the same changes to the second one. Nope. Apparently I didn't hit the little check mark icon when I made changes to the second battery. Fortunately, I caught the issue within a couple weeks of the system going live. The default settings weren't bad, just not right for my larger capacity battery.
 
I've been searching for BMS information and it is surprising to see so many people blaming the BMS for ruining their batteries.
I assume the problem is usually from improper top balance. But some people have overcharged a bunch of cells and blamed it on the BMS. I don't get it.
The charge controller is supposed to stop charging before the voltage gets too high. Then the BMS is supposed to stop the charging before a cell gets too high.
How can people repeatedly mess up batteries? I don't want that to happen to me. :cry:
Trust but verify! Set up your BMS and monitor it often to see what is happening. Do not trust any information it outputs until you can confirm it is reliable. All BMS are machines they can fail and they can start out bad. Once you have a few cycles of he battery under your belt and the BMS seems to be working properly you can check it less often. But still check now and then.
 
I've been searching for BMS information and it is surprising to see so many people blaming the BMS for ruining their batteries.
I assume the problem is usually from improper top balance. But some people have overcharged a bunch of cells and blamed it on the BMS. I don't get it.
The charge controller is supposed to stop charging before the voltage gets too high. Then the BMS is supposed to stop the charging before a cell gets too high.
How can people repeatedly mess up batteries? I don't want that to happen to me. :cry:

I have never top or bottom balanced my cells.

The BMS keeps the individual cells in balance between the knees of the charge curve. And I only passively balance during the charge cycle so I have “power to burn” there.

It’s virtually impossible to hurt your cells if you live on the flat part of the curve.
 
I have never top or bottom balanced my cells.

The BMS keeps the individual cells in balance between the knees of the charge curve. And I only passively balance during the charge cycle so I have “power to burn” there.

It’s virtually impossible to hurt your cells if you live on the flat part of the curve.
This is true not pressing the edges of the envelope is definitely the safest approach.

But it is possible you are leaving a lot of energy on the table so to speak especially once you get to a larger pack. Percentage wise it may not be an issue but WH wise it could be huge. When winter rolls around n Idaho I want all the power I can get when the sun shines, because you never know when its coming back. Could be days or weeks. but every last bit counts.
 
As I mentioned recently somewhere else on this forum bottom balancing and no BMS was very popular among the EV conversion community 8-10 years ago. Part of that may have been due to the late Jack Rickard who advocated it on EVTV for many years. For a while it was almost like a cult following. Then Jack bought a Tesla and put solar panels on the roof of his shop.
 
To OP: Post #1 response.

I've been at this a wee while shall we say and have seen many folks do many nasty things to batteries, cells & equipment and 90% of it, is directly a result of NOT reading Instructions, Manuals & Documents. People have always had an issue hence the term RTFM (Read The Frappin Manual) came out Years Ago. There are also many pre-conceptions that people refuse to change and will not even take the time to engage a bit of Critical Thinking either... for example, many foolish people have this notion that you can only use 12V Solar Panels on a 12V Battery System & SCC, also that somehow 12V panels are superior that larger capacity ones... seriously, some do believe that. I won't add more to that other than to say, there are always a Select Few who think they know more than the Engineers who designed built whatever... many educated via Youtube University and don't even own a DVOM.

A very common thing as well, especially with BMS' some think these are Magical Wizardly Devices that can cure sick batteries, recover dead ones and solve User Caused Mistakes. Sorry utt they DON'T ! They have a simple task to do and that is to Guard the cells and protect the pack they control. Depending on TYPE OF BMS, some have Multiple Chemistry Support such as LFP, LITO, LIPO, Li-Ion etc and these MUST be set for the correct chemistry & profile BUT some not paying attention have left an Incorrect choice, such a LIPO on an LFP Pack, that WILL Overcharge the cells (cutoff for LIPO = 4.35V per cell). They (BMS) "may" be able to do basic Passive Balancing (really only good for Perfectly Matched & Binned Cells) and not much use on cells above 200AH. Some can do Active Balancing and depending the Balancer Capacity (in Amps) these can deal with larger cells.

DUE DILIGENCE:
My Goodness, this is a BIGGY ! This is DIY Land not Plug & Play Village, so due diligence on taking equipment and setting it up properly is an absolute MUST. That also means checking "every" wire, connection made, testing Crimped & Soldered connection & connectors for good continuity, A LOT of problems come up because of a wire faults or poor connections, bad soldered leads or something like that. A Common one is BURS on BusBars or Terminals that prevent a good solid contact, which seems few pay attention to (maybe they think over tightening the connection will bury a Bur into the other metal ?) For those making their own BusBars, often forget to "chamfer" the bolt holes to ensure they are perfectly clean & clear.

Lastly and not least important is that this is the 21st Century, personal responsibility is a "Bad Ideation", it is always someone or something else s fault, always deflect responsibility & ownership of any & all problems elsewhere. Of course ALWAYS Blame Import Stuff it is ALL pure Junk right.... especially if the Particular Nation producing it is a Target by ... whatever ding-a-ling excuse that can be raised by the Chicken Little's and Fearful Shrews who rant and rave against everything that is outside of their tiny little domain in the universe. THIS IS BAD ENOUGH, that when they get knickers in such a tight knot, they start accusing people, companies of things, they escalate that into personal battles to "win being who is right" and even go as far as making Threats... I have Experienced all of that HERE and this is only recently as some dregs tossed from other boards have shown up here with their idiocy...

I'll continue help those that are genuinely interested & keen to learn and am now very selective what threads or posts I will help on. I may chime in once in a while in a thread to Suggest people engage CRITICAL THINKING, or to look at the "ABOUT MY SYSTEM" pages from some of the "advice givers" (because poor 'advisors' often none) because they are being fed Feldergarb ! I swear some give the advice to destroy stuff at the expense of the others and they seem to get a sick kick out of it, that someone believed them and fried thousands of dollars worth of gear. Hence the "Engage Critical Thinking" part comes into play.

BTW, If you hadn't realized it yet, I am a Chargery GUY, infactt I introduced Chargery BMS here back in November or December ? I forget now... I am JUST A USER of their products but redid their manuals and help Jason to improve the product for the benefit of EVERYONE and I do this entirely Free & Voluntarily, I get NOTHING out of it but the satisfaction that I helped people & a company to get further ahead with a better product. Many have offered their Thanks for the effort & that is appreciated BUT I have also been "attacked" and that does not wash ! It's this simple If Someone wants to threaten me, Go Ahead, show up with a 3.08 & Body Bag in hand so I can send them home when they fail. (never screw with a dead man walking, it's a one way trip)
 
BTW, If you hadn't realized it yet, I am a Chargery GUY,
I bought my first Chargery(DB8) from HobbyKing in 2011 when I was messing around with Headways and an E-bike conversions. Since it.was limited to 10 Amps it disappeared into the bottom of a box from that low Amp era. Until I joined this forum a few months ago, I had no idea the breadth of that product and how it has evolved since those days. I may have even made a somewhat derogatory remark about its RC heritage a few month ago naively without realizing how much it has evolved.
It seems to have all the bells and whistles of my much more expensive Orion. In addition the Orion has a lot of features from its EV heritage that are simply not needed in a storage application and make installation more complicated.
Thank you for your part in the evolution of that product. The result is a value to this community and a product that serves its purpose well.
 
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I think most people appreciate the effort you put in to figuring this stuff out and making it better Steve.
Amen to that. I am looking forward to trying the Chargery. Coming from the large size pack perspective I am often reminded that when FETs fail, they fail closed and the use of an external disconnect is appealing from a risk management perspective.
I have some ideas for other improvements but will save them for another time and the appropriate conversation.
 
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Amen to that. I am looking forward to trying the Chargery. Coming from the large size pack perspective I am often reminded that when FETs fail, they fail closed and the use of an external disconnect is appealing from a risk management perspective.
I have some ideas for other improvements but will save them fo another time.
NOT to hijack this thread, but if you have suggestions or ideas to improve / enhance the Chargery Line THIS is the time to speak up. Jason is revising BMS', developing BMS' with Active Balancing 5A & 10A and more... Feel free to PM me any suggestions & ideas (they may already be "in the works"). I would happily forward that info. IE, 12bit ADC is becoming 16bit ADC, I can say with fair certainty that a New Generation of Chargery BMS is coming and SOON. so again, NOW is the time. There are many things in the Stew Pot already and many more being considered.

Alternately you can forwrd it to Jason as well BUT remember none of the folks at Chargery speak English, so if you have an idea, my suggestion is Keep it Simple, point form, and provide rational or logic as to why you feel it would be an enhancement. Keep the language plain & simple so the translation software doesn't mess it up, THAT is actually quite a problem for them espcially when trying to do tech support and people get carried away using coloquialisms and breviated terms or worse, txt msg shorthand... Arggggghhhh Translators all fall over that kind of stuff.

I KNOW of many things he is considering and potentially will be in the mix BUT as nothing is set in stone I can't say much as the ideas in the cooker are being bounced around quite a bit and what teh end result will be is kinda open. There is also no point in asking me "what they are" because it is all up in the air and being considered. I will say that the new versions when available will be a step up indeed (prices will reflect that too).
 
NOT to hijack this thread, but if you have suggestions or ideas to improve / enhance the Chargery Line THIS is the time to speak up.
I will start a new thread with a title like "Long term functionality requests for BMS".
Before I can make any specific suggestions about Charger I will have to buy a Chargery to play with. I am building some 12 volt packs for my daughter and sister to get them through the PSPSs.
 
I will start a new thread with a title like "Long term functionality requests for BMS".
Before I can make any specific suggestions about Charger I will have to buy a Chargery to play with. I am building some 12 volt packs for my daughter and sister to get them through the PSPSs.
That's fine, but do be aware that they are doing Design & Planning for new vrsions & updates right now. Some of this involves manufacturing obviously because of new electronics, casings will more than likely change and may even include cooling fans and more. UI, Comms etc are all on the chefs table being considered for the stew.
 
The issues you mention are all ones that would be valuable for this market right now.
The other issue would be longer term anyway and presumably available through firmware assuming he has or will have a Wifi interface. The one feature I love about the Orion is called Orion Connect. It talks to the Orion over CANBUS and through Wifi uploads data to a server. I logon to a website and can look at dat on graphical format to see trends. I can do this either from my office, my couch 40 feet from my pack or while on the road. I can do the same from my inverter but the BMS data about pack Amps, Volts, temp and high & low cell data is useful. I don't know if there is universal interest in this to offset the cost of maintaining a website.
Here is an example of the one week Amperage trend on my system..

BMS Amps.png
 
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That's fine, but do be aware that they are doing Design & Planning for new vrsions & updates right now. Some of this involves manufacturing obviously because of new electronics, casings will more than likely change and may even include cooling fans and more. UI, Comms etc are all on the chefs table being considered for the stew.
Sounds great that they are adding an active balancer with more amps.
I hope by UI you mean bluetooth and an app
 
Sounds great that they are adding an active balancer with more amps.
I hope by UI you mean bluetooth and an app

Plus 1 on that .... WiFi would be OK, but I would prefer there be a Bluetooth interface.

The cells in my pack are staying in balance very well .... better turnkey communications options would be at the top of my list .... along with doing a better job of tracking SOC. I haven't had the issue some have had with inaccurate cell reading, but that needs to be looked at closely. It doesn't seem that it is an installation error since the problem has been resolved by using an external charger.
 
in the 70's manuals would tell you how to adjust the valves on your car. Now they tell you not to drink the battery fluid. That said.. I label cables when building 'cos I've fried gear not concentrating (just got home from work) Double check. Don't be in a rush! I've been very keen to get it to work but after the smoke gone "oh yeah, why did I put that there?" Labeling can save you.
 
But in the 70's More people did DIY everything and most knew what tools were, in 2020 not so much in the Disposable World where nothing can be repaired.
 
Car makers were struggling with smog devices and fuel efficiency in the 70s.
Worst cars ever in my opinion. And ugly. Seems like US car makers were in a state of shock.
I don't know if they will ever recover.
Then came Tesla
 
Should visit Vietnam (prob the same in Central America) They fix EVERYTHING. There is a guy who can fix an umbrella. another who can vulcanise a tyre. Recondition the head on your motorbike (inc weld) all on the footpath. They come and visit you.
 
Should visit Vietnam (prob the same in Central America) They fix EVERYTHING. There is a guy who can fix an umbrella. another who can vulcanise a tyre. Recondition the head on your motorbike (inc weld) all on the footpath. They come and visit you.
I lived in Costa Rica for a year and know exactly what you mean.
Can you send me contact info for that guy? I want him to fix my BMS when it self destructs. And he can take a look at my 72 Catalina while he's here.
 

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