Can the electrical grid handle a boom in electric vehicles?

[Hedges]

Could work.

The fix to grid issues we were having this past week would be simple smarts incorporated into A/C thermostats.
In that case, the A/C is already there, and either replacing thermostats with automatic setback thermostats controlled by pager, or simply a pager interrupting the control wire, is all that's needed.
But it ain't happened yet. Not on the scale needed to put a dent in consumption.

Tesla is probably in a position to do it. With an over-the-air software update. In that case, control would be via their radio link not pager. Maybe could observe line frequency and respond to that. Grid-support backfeed would be an additional feature, but doubt their standard hardware could support. Also need to ensure individual driving (charging) needs are met.

 

[Sanwizard]

Could work.

The fix to grid issues we were having this past week would be simple smarts incorporated into A/C thermostats.
In that case, the A/C is already there, and either replacing thermostats with automatic setback thermostats controlled by pager, or simply a pager interrupting the control wire, is all that's needed.
But it ain't happened yet. Not on the scale needed to put a dent in consumption.

Tesla is probably in a position to do it. With an over-the-air software update. In that case, control would be via their radio link not pager. Maybe could observe line frequency and respond to that. Grid-support backfeed would be an additional feature, but doubt their standard hardware could support. Also need to ensure individual driving (charging) needs are met.

It will end up being a matter of money and physics. There are two options: They will either have to create massive new energy sources, and the means to distribute it efficently and cost effectively, or decentralize the grid by moving generation closer to the end user, or even better the end user becoming the generation source.
The next problem is new energy/battery technology that is not dependent on foreign countries, and the ability of the masses to be able to afford changing over.
Maybe Robert Heinlein's vision of rolling roads is more attainable in the near term. ?

 

[bradbill]

I was. The means of charging an EV from the grid will have a large effect on what pressure, if any, they place on the grid.

Everyone seems to be talking as if EVs are necessarily going to be a problem, when indeed they can be part of the solution. That's was the point of my post. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to work out some simple smarts incorporated into how chargers operate will make a big difference.

EVs are the future. I have a Tesla with solar on my home and I can charge my car and power my AC and have a zero net bill.

 

[Sanwizard]

It will end up being a matter of money and physics. There are two options: They will either have to create massive new energy sources, and the means to distribute it efficently and cost effectively, or decentralize the grid by moving generation closer to the end user, or even better the end user becoming the generation source.
The next problem is new energy/battery technology that is not dependent on foreign countries, and the ability of the masses to be able to afford changing over.
Maybe Robert Heinlein's vision of rolling roads is more attainable in the near term. ?

 

[noenegdod]

I was. The means of charging an EV from the grid will have a large effect on what pressure, if any, they place on the grid.

Everyone seems to be talking as if EVs are necessarily going to be a problem, when indeed they can be part of the solution. That's was the point of my post. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to work out some simple smarts incorporated into how chargers operate will make a big difference.

So I understand using an EV as a battery and using it to soak up the days solar/wind. Please correct me if Im wrong. My understanding was that the issue (the current "dont charge your ev during the day" issue) was that there simply wasnt much excess power/capacity, beyond actual demand, to be soaked up by an EV.

Another way of putting it (again, this is my understanding of what you were saying so correct me if I am not restating it as you intended);

California citizens were being told to not charge their EVs during the day as the load was approaching capacity (suns out producing power but also heating buildings which is causing all the power being produced by solar to cool the buildings). After dark when the sun load is gone its ok to charge but where is that power coming from (some from wind if its windy but solar is gone).

So how do EVs help in this current situation.?

 

[wattmatters]

So how do EVs help in this current situation.?

In a system where supply must equal demand at every moment, then anything which presents as a grid load or a grid supply plays a role.

EV's can be both but as to the current situation then for the most part it's about them being a discretionary load and avoiding charging at such times.

Many EVs don't need to be charged every day (just like most cars don't need to fill up with gas every day). Some do. So if you are in the former group and a delay in charging is not going to cause an issue for the driver then choosing to delay charging until the demand-supply stress has been relieved is a helpful thing to do.

It's not a case of expecting every EV owner to do this - but to get enough to change behaviour such that it provides some relief for a grid experiencing some stress. It's no different to load management for other systems such as heating or cooling, or industrial loads which have the ability to be ramped up and down during times when the grid demand needs such help.

Down the track it can be smarter than that:

If an EV does not need to be charged, and there is discretion over when it can be charged, then smart charge control systems can play a role by:
i. not charging at times it will support a short term grid imbalance, or to limit the charge rate during such times
ii. charging at times it is beneficial for the grid and the EV owner (in some cases you can be paid to charge when the grid needs load)
iii. help to reduce load further by use of the EV storage capacity to remove other loads such as household loads for short periods
iii. have the potential to be a short term supply of energy to the grid

No one is suggesting every single EV needs to do this, it's just a matter of enough doing this and playing a supporting role.

Form the grid's perspective, removing load and adding supply have the same effect. EVs have capability to do both. Many don't right now but it's not really a complex task, and many newer home (and commercial) charging systems are being set up to enable that capability.

 

[wattmatters]

After dark when the sun load is gone its ok to charge but where is that power coming from (some from wind if its windy but solar is gone).

If it is late at night (think 2AM, not evening peak) then there's every chance the demand on the grid at that time is far lower and the existing overnight supply may well ample to meet those charging loads since other loads are not placed on the grid.

I'm not saying it specifically is in this case, but you can't just consider the supply or the demand side in isolation. What matters is the ability to keep the grid in balance. Strategic (and occasional tactical) load shifting helps with this. Usually such events can be forecast and so people can plan ahead. Sometimes things happen, such as a large supply gets taken off-line in an unscheduled event.

Anyone running an off-grid solar PV + battery system already does this all the time.

 

[Hedges]

California citizens were being told to not charge their EVs during the day as the load was approaching capacity (suns out producing power but also heating buildings which is causing all the power being produced by solar to cool the buildings). After dark when the sun load is gone its ok to charge but where is that power coming from (some from wind if its windy but solar is gone).

So how do EVs help in this current situation.?

EVs could have charged earlier in the day. PV output peaks around Noon.
EVs could have done V2G late afternoon, early evening, adding power to the grid.

Peaker plants could have run earlier in the day, charging EVs.

Home A/C could have pre-chilled houses earlier in the day.

Middle of the night, after things cooled off, baseload power could have charged EVs.

 

[Sanwizard]

EVs could have charged earlier in the day. PV output peaks around Noon.
EVs could have done V2G late afternoon, early evening, adding power to the grid.

Peaker plants could have run earlier in the day, charging EVs.

Home A/C could have pre-chilled houses earlier in the day.

Middle of the night, after things cooled off, baseload power could have charged EVs.

I think the fly in the ointment as they say will be all the "screw you, I do what I want" folks who dont give a damn about planning, and may all charge during peak.

 

[bradbill]

I think the fly in the ointment as they say will be all the "screw you, I do what I want" folks who dont give a damn about planning, and may all charge during peak.

That's why you make it economically advantageous to use electricity at off peak times....like is already done. I can charge my EV at night for cheaper rates. Same thing is done on toll roads. You will always have the "screw you" people. I never have to charge my EV every day so not that important to charge during peak time....pretty simple concept.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

I don't think the chemical reaction needs oxygen to continue producing heat. All the water does is reduce the temperature so the reaction of the thermal runaway can proceed at a moderate and relatively slow and safer pace. I think a small garden hose pointed at the right spot would do fine. Need more experience and training. Fortunately there are fewer EV fires than ICE fires per mile driven by a factor of 10 IIRC.

Stand back boys, so ya don't get frostbit. I'm here with my portable 250lb. bottle of liquid nitrogen. First I'll freeze that battery into a state of inertness and then toss it into my grinding machine and turn the whole car to slurry, for 100% recycling. We'll have this mess cleaned up in under 20 minutes! We have franchise opportunities nationwide too!

Redwood Materials | Circular Supply Chain for Lithium-ion Batteries

Redwood creates a closed-loop, domestic supply chain by recycling and refining lithium-ion batteries and remanufacturing anode and cathode components.

www.redwoodmaterials.com

 

[Batvette]

Q: How come the carbon cost of upgrading the grid, generating facilities, and installing and mfg the charging stations, has never been calculated?

You think its inconsequential?

 

[Batvette]

I do not see issues in California. I don't know enough about other states to offer an opinion.

Really. Didnt you get the emergency texts to stop using power the other day?

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Really. Didnt you get the emergency texts to stop using power the other day?

And they did their job! No blackouts! The work continues.

 

[Batvette]

Could be. But the painted surface gets just as hot as PV cells would. Especially dark colors

Theres probably a huge safety liability just from potential wiring fires if youve got panels all over the vehicle, many on moving parts, all generating 21 volts with significant current behind it in direct sunlight. You could fuse it at each end but them the complexity makes it cost prohibitive.
Another manufacturer is doing something with the roof on their top model. (Looks it up)
Fisker.

Fisker Ocean One

Experience it first. The exclusive launch edition Fisker Ocean One

www.fiskerinc.com

And Audi offered a model where the whole roof was a panel that powered a ventilation blower.

 

[Batvette]

And they did their job! No blackouts! The work continues.

You really have the koolaid on an IV dont you.

California isnt adding much capacity soon. They are at the limit at this point as it is, and letting lots of illegals in as well. Sending emergency texts to every citizen to stop using power and not charge your car isnt the system "working". Its the system in a state of emergency, you know the thing the text said. This is NOT all systems well. We are barely over 1% EV adoption now and they told us theres not enough power to charge our few cars now. Theyre not adding capacity but massively increasing demand. WTF is wrong with them? And you?
Its as if you people are just fine with the collapse of industrialized society.

And if you say they will add the grid and generating capacity, calculate the carbon cost. Lets see it. I dont think you care, because many believe saving the planet isnt the goal here. Its about control. Limiting the freedom for others to use resources. Making everyone unable to drive their SUVs and force them to take the same bus or crappy shitbox AFV they smugly commute with every day.
I cant say theyre wrong when I remember my liberal democrat mom driving up Altamont pass in the early 70s in her Toyota Corona, going 10 under the limit in the fast lane. "Im moving at a perfectly reasonable and efficient speed, if they want to go faster they can just go around ME."
Liberal Democrats want to control everyone, if we are not miserable wretches like they are, its like a dagger to their heart.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

California isnt adding much capacity soon.

That's the point and the solution is for everyone involved to act in unison to keep from going down hard and dirty. California actually has a leader and he led successfully. For the other states (Texas in particular) it should be a cautionary tale that gets everyone moving on infrastructure upgrades. As goes California, so goes the nation.
Instead politicians bow to the pressures of big oil and slow walk all infrastructure improvements so as to keep us addicted to their donors and keep them elected year after year.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

I cant say theyre wrong when I remember my liberal democrat mom driving up Altamont pass in the early 70s in her Toyota Corona, going 10 under the limit in the fast lane. "Im moving at a perfectly reasonable and efficient speed, if they want to go faster they can just go around ME."

Don't really need to hear your Mommy issues.

 

[Batvette]

You know Im looking at that fisker and can only conclude one thing. Its summed up here.

"Experience the digital wonder of our innovative Revolve rotating center screen. This exclusive, optional 17.1-inch touchscreen has the power to swivel from a Control Mode – a portrait view - to Hollywood Mode – a landscape 16:9 widescreen format allowing you to enjoy movies and videos, complete with 360° sound, in an immersive cinematic experience."

And here:

"The eco-friendly Fisker Ocean One cabin in the statement-making MaliBlu color theme is sustainably crafted with interior fabrics and carpet made using recycled plastic bottles and other recycled polymers. The MaliBlu color theme combines Indigo EcoSuede high-grade upholstery seats with distinctive teal accents, Black Abyss door accents, Platinum metallic accent trim, and Black Abyss carpet."

Fuck them and Fuck all of you virtue signalling save the planet with my head up my ass phonies. You cannot tell me with a straight face that all the weird chemicals and processes used in developing and manufacturing this shit is better for greenhouse gas emissions than all of us buying toyota corollas every 20 or so years. Or that making seats out of old bottles was really better than a couple dead cows or a bunch of velour monkeys.

Its been long known that most recycling operations cost more in energy and resources than using virgin materials.
-
 This is all about pretending youre doing something when youre not. Send the evil processes to China, let them spew tons of NF3 into the air. Withhold the real GGE cost, keep the lies going till its too late to do anything about it. Put some senile dope in the white house whose son raked in millions from a chinese energy company to force it on everyone and lets tell them its saving the earth.

 

[Batvette]

That's the point and the solution is for everyone involved to act in unison to keep from going down hard and dirty. California actually has a leader and he led successfully. For the other states (Texas in particular) it should be a cautionary tale that gets everyone moving on infrastructure upgrades. As goes California, so goes the nation.
Instead politicians bow to the pressures of big oil and slow walk all infrastructure improvements so as to keep us addicted to their donors and keep them elected year after year.

California actually has a leader.
Who kept his winery business operating after he shut everyone elses business down.
Who had his kids learning in private schools while he kept public schools closed.
Who dined unmasked with a dozen of his staffers at a fancy restaurant while he had everyone else masked, banned from public gatherings, and restaurants closed.
Whose great aunt got her hair styled unmasked, while hair salons were closed for commoners like us.
Who now is offering billions in welfare and free medical care to illegal aliens while our citizens are starving living in tent cities.
Yeah we got a real leader.

 

[Batvette]

Don't really need to hear your Mommy issues.

It could just as easily been my school teacher or a friends mom. I have no mommy issues you idiot, Im adopted. Its a liberal democrat issue.

 

[Sanwizard]

That's the point and the solution is for everyone involved to act in unison to keep from going down hard and dirty. California actually has a leader and he led successfully. For the other states (Texas in particular) it should be a cautionary tale that gets everyone moving on infrastructure upgrades. As goes California, so goes the nation.
Instead politicians bow to the pressures of big oil and slow walk all infrastructure improvements so as to keep us addicted to their donors and keep them elected year after year.

"California actually has a leader and he led successfully".
That must be why millions of productive folks are leaving as fast as they can? My Daughter lived in San Diego, and my Son in San Fransisco. They both moved to the Carolinas. The stories they told me are shocking. I left NYC for the same reason.
I am a registered Democrat, but will never vote for another democrat again. They ruin every city they run. Just travel the country and look for yourself.
Always Remember.... 9/11.

 

[Batvette]

Don't really need to hear your Mommy issues.

It could just as easily been my school teacher or a friends mom. I have no mommy issues you idiot, Im adopted so you are way off base with that. Its a liberal democrat issue.

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

This is all about pretending youre doing something when youre not.

The name of my company should've clued you in to all that.
Ozark's DoLittleOrNothingForBigMoney,Ink.
We're so lazy we don't even bother with spacing!

 

[Ozark Tinkering]

Just travel the country and look for yourself.

I had to do that for 30 years while I was busy building powerhouses and other conveniences for rich businessmen across the country. Thanks.