Can't get enough power from my newpowa panels

[Abby Smith]

I think you answered your own question with looking at other panels.

Do not discount environmental effects. Smog particulates, humidity could offset otherwise proper operation of your existing gear. Test conditions....

I would suggest buying a Hanwha Q cells or other premium module. Sunpower, etc. Shame solarworld is gone.... my 1200W arrays will do 1200W and better even with non ideal tilt angle and moderate temps. 50 cents a Watt! 300-375W modules.

Dollars per Watt is the place i look for a determining factor once i select a size and manufacturer. Not looking for cheapest Watts, looking for the best Watts for the dollar.

I cannot figure out why people are spending 1$/Watt for mini panels from playful manufacturers unless they need minimal power, 12v modules, or compact ones for tight spaces, or to break up the array to fit. Some of the only reasons to do so.

Basically if you need home or base camp power you can double your power per dollar and reduce interconnecting parts amd mounting materials, breakers cost, etc. In this way you save money, and effort and will have heirloom grade modules along with a successful build.

Longevity and performance come with reputable modules and the good stuff has ratings values which will more accurately represent real world performance making selection for design even easier and more sure. No vague and shifty de-rates needed!

Idk, i and many others typically get whatever is cheapest on amazon lol. Maybe this is why solarworld went out of business lol. I can't use large panels because they don't easily fit in tight spaces and they are too big and heavy to work with.

 

[kernel]

Will,
These ones are smaller. I feel like maybe they shrunk the panels as they decreased the prices. I'm gonna buy some from amazon and do some comparisons of my own and return the least efficient ones.

Which ones should I get? Im interested in the 100 watt panels because i think thats the max I can carry comfortably lol.

Ah, good enough reason. Design criteria!

 

[kernel]

I live/work in a different world, one where installing 12kW worth of 100W modules (as we used to do!) For 3$/W is sheer insanity!

 

[Abby Smith]

I live/work in a different world, one where installing 12kW worth of 100W modules (as we used to do!) For 3$/W is sheer insanity!

lol, i can understand that. Im sure for your case, you use super huge panels, but they are not easy to work with. How much does one of these huge panels weight?

 

[kernel]

Idk, i and many others typically get whatever is cheapest on amazon lol. Maybe this is why solarworld went out of business lol. I can't use large panels because they don't easily fit in tight spaces and they are too big and heavy to work with.

Absolutely. If any other thing cannot do what you are designing it is simply unsuitable. And bravo for your assertion.

An editorial of sorts and with the best of good will;

Solarworld sold out because we did not keep buying them at half price during the trade war to supply pv to the world (china won). When installers and buyers were looking at price tha nickel a watt was "cheapest". They were selling at about the cost of the materials invested through government subsidy.

The attempt to compete or keep near that price along with demand dropoffs sunk their efforts as near as i gather.

They were forced out of buisness by global politics. Solar has not had the best publicity and its politics somewhat to blame fo4 peoples perception that it is not suitable tech.

Solar was getting to be quite accepted amd popular even though most did not realize that module prices had gone from 3$/W to .55$/W for the the best of the best world class (as distinct from "global") stuff, made by well paid employees, and with tighter environmental controls.

I was there and a circa 2008 Solarworld module was not a yingli, canadian, suntech (pretty good), a host of other undesirables in side by side visual and monitoring system comparison. They just were not made of the "stuff" that was the quality standard.

They still are not. You are an engineer, inspection of them should be interesting.

Cells are good in most modules.
Cell interconnecting materials, technique, and execution are not the same at all. Purity of silver, solders, fluxes and symetry and precision of assembly are outstanding on a good module and border on a joke with some others.

Cold solder, thin solder, contaminated solder, crooked mis spaced cells, crooked conductors, cheap junctions gacked on with caulk, dried caulk ooze and strings across the backs, terrible connectors, cheap power lead insulation, cheap cord grips on leads, thin glass of a lower quality composition, misfit and weak frames with grinder marks..... i could go on. Ok, i will.

Do not ever come near nameplate! (Edit, Wills modules as possible example, inconsistancy of performance as compared to rating)

 

[tictag]

I read a bit about solar panels, and i learned that typically they are 36 solar cells connected in series to generate the necessary voltage to be useful, however, the panels are igot are more like 72 cells.

I have definitely seen both, though the 72-cell variants are usually connected to output higher voltages designed for 24V battery systems (i.e. 0.6V per cell x 72 cells = 43.2V). Imho, more cells = more interconnections and, therefore, more resistive losses. I believe that having connections mounted on top of the cells also causes power losses through shading (though you could argue the STC should account for this).

But there is an argument for an environmental cause for the reduced output. I live at 54o latitude (Northern England) and I'll be lucky to get 20-30W in clear-skies sunshine at cold temperatures in winter. As soon as clouds come out, just forget it - I can fart more photons.

 

[kernel]

lol, i can understand that. Im sure for your case, you use super huge panels, but they are not easy to work with. How much does one of these huge panels weight?

42-44ish pounds for 300-325W 39.5" × 66" they can be handled with ease once you figure out how to best hold and carry.

Hanwha makes some intermediate (striking aestetic and mechanical precision) sizes as do other manufacturers.
Aesthetics could matter, may totally not to some. I look at them as a feature of the home and not just equipment.

The large commercial size is about 48-50lbs. 37.5" x 77ish.

Some variance but just about there.

 

[Abby Smith]

I have definitely seen both, though the 72-cell variants are usually connected to output higher voltages designed for 24V battery systems (i.e. 0.6V per cell x 72 cells = 43.2V). Imho, more cells = more interconnections and, therefore, more resistive losses. I believe that having connections mounted on top of the cells also causes power losses through shading (though you could argue the STC should account for this).

But there is an argument for an environmental cause for the reduced output. I live at 54o latitude (Northern England) and I'll be lucky to get 20-30W in clear-skies sunshine at cold temperatures in winter. As soon as clouds come out, just forget it - I can fart more photons.

Thanks for the insight. It is confirming that we are both on the same page regarding 72 cell connections.
The NEWPOWA is 72 cells yet its a 12 volt panel. Based on my theory, i think they connected each 2 cells in parallel to make a large cell, and then they connected all of them in series to make it behave like a 36 cell panel. I'm reading online about this stuff. While WIll does a good job teaching us how to setup a system, the theory is a different story.
I wonder why they would do that? it sounds so counter intuitive and theoretically not possible to produce same power.

 

[Abby Smith]

42-44ish pounds for 300-325W 39.5" × 66" they can be handled with ease once you figure out how to best hold and carry.

Hanwha makes some intermediate (striking aestetic and mechanical precision) sizes as do other manufacturers.
Aesthetics could matter, may totally not to some. I look at them as a feature of the home and not just equipment.

The large commercial size is about 48-50lbs. 37.5" x 77ish.

Some variance but just about there.

thats way too big for me to handle lol. I think 20lbs is my max.

 

[kernel]

Thanks for the insight. It is confirming that we are both on the same page regarding 72 cell connections.
The NEWPOWA is 72 cells yet its a 12 volt panel. Based on my theory, i think they connected each 2 cells in parallel to make a large cell, and then they connected all of them in series to make it behave like a 36 cell panel. I'm reading online about this stuff. While WIll does a good job teaching us how to setup a system, the theory is a different story.
I wonder why they would do that? it sounds so counter intuitive and theoretically not possible to produce same power.

The module voltage is all that matters it is the sum. Cell architecture within a module can vary but output voltage is voltage.

Sunwize modules have tons of cells and are made from broken cell wafers to recover the material scrap from production. I have some. Not power dense, but not at all bad.

 

[Abby Smith]

The module voltage is all that matters it is the sum. Cell architecture within a module can vary but output voltage is voltage.

Sunwize modules have tons of cells and are made from broken cell wafers to recover the material scrap from production. I have some. Not power dense, but not at all bad.

I agree with you, however, the point I'm trying to make is that the panels i have state that they are very power dense, yet they are more cells than needed.
So is that why they use so many cells, is it because they are reusing scrap cells?

 

[Savern]

This is Vancouver, about 100 miles north of you. Similar weather. Not good solar country. http://katkam.ca/

 

[tictag]

The NEWPOWA is 72 cells yet its a 12 volt panel.

Take care using the term "12 volt panel", it isn't a 12V panel, it's a 21.6V panel (0.6V x 36V = 21.6V) that is designed for use with 12V battery systems. Some people mistakenly add up series-connected panels in multiples of 12V, this is very wrong and can lead to problems e.g. 4 x 12V = 48V, which is tolerable to touch, 4 x 21.6V = 86.4V, not so much.

But as to the connection method, maybe they had access to a batch of cheaper, smaller cells? I don't know, but the way it is constructed (aside from more general quality issues) shouldn't matter too much ... a PV cell is a PV cell, and whether it is connected in two parallel strings of 36 cells in series should matter that much (except the increase lossey interconnections and potential points of failure). The quality of the cell matters but, again, there aren't actually that many manufacturers of PV cells (lots using those cells to construct panels), this is why Will finds in his videos panels from different manufacturer's have strikingly similar performances.

Thinking about interconnections, I wonder if you have a few cells out? I was reading somewhere how to test for this, they were using a thermal camera but said you can 'feel' the cell's heat. I think they were back-feeding the panel somehow, sorry, you'll have to google it ("testing PV panels")

 

[tictag]

This is Vancouver,

Beautiful - I love Vancouver so much. I was going to emigrate there some time ago with my then girlfriend (before she viciously dumped me!)

 

[Abby Smith]

Correct lol, i meant they are 21.6V but used for 12 volt systems. And yes, Vancouver is beautiful, but more so in the summer lol.

I wish someone would do an updated test video of all the panels on the market. I'd really like to see them side by side.

 

[kernel]

Ok, tic. 12v nominal? 21 is high for that traditionally. Higher voltage modules are generally easier to design with.

Power dense refers generally to the arrangement of cells tight together so there is more power per unit of module surface area. Least expensive adaption

And/or that the cell has high output efficiency or Watts per unit of area. More expensive.

When they do both they are priced accordingly.

 

[tictag]

I wish someone would do an updated test video of all the panels on the market.

Easier to say than do. Remember, Will buys all the panels he tests out of his own pocket (and kudos to him for doing so). Most other reviews are sponsored in some way or form (e.g. panels supplied free but don't say x, y or z). Some are just out-and-out shills. I trust Will's reviews.

 

[Abby Smith]

Easier to say than do. Remember, Will buys all the panels he tests out of his own pocket (and kudos to him for doing so). Most other reviews are sponsored in some way or form (e.g. panels supplied free but don't say x, y or z). Some are just out-and-out shills. I trust Will's reviews.

Yes but they are old lol. The panels he reviewed are not the same panels I get online. Will, time to update lol.

 

[tictag]

Ok, tic. 12v nominal?

No, not really.

It is unlikely you would ever get 12V from a "12 volt panel". They are just not made that way i.e. if you want to charge a 12V battery, you need more than 14.4V to do so. Start adding 0.6V cells (which is just the chemistry of silicon) together for ease of manufacturer and you end up with a 36 cell construction. 36 cells at 0.6V is 21.6V. It's just chemistry meets economics meets maths. Yes, you get variations around 21.6V, but never 12V.

What sometime creates confusion is that PV panel's maximum power output will always be lower - usually around 18.5V (google 'PV power response'). So you've got Voc at 21.6V, Vmp at 18.5V batteries at 12V, blah, blah ... to avoid potential confusion, marketeers just simply refer to them as "12 volt panels".

The trouble comes when people just assume each panel produces 12V. A chap I spoke to recently connected 8 x 100W panels in series believing that this was under the 100V maximum supported by his solar controller and was subsequently surprised when his controller blew up! Ok, it didn't blow up .. but it could have done! (It actually just moaned at him: "Reduce voltage now! Or I'll tell your Gran!"

 

[kernel]

Yes but they are old lol. The panels he reviewed are not the same panels I get online. Will, time to update lol.

Its your turn to test and provide your observations. Good stuff!