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Charge amps

Whats-n-Watts

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Good morning. I'm currently selecting batteries for a continuous load of 422 watts vac and from what I have calculated that's about 39 amps @12v from the battery. With a Lifepo4 charge rate of 15 amps per 100 ah as I have seen the suggested limit for battery heath that is not but half enough to power the continuous load without depleting that battery. Am I to understand this would require either a higher voltage system or more amp hours to support 40a dcv? My testing seems to point that way. TIA
 
Keep in mind if you are both charging @ 40 amps with one thing and drawing @ 40 amps with another thing, you aren't charging the battery at all! So you could be using a 55amp charge source and still be staying within your number in that situation.

One way you could do something along these lines that i have done before, is simply set a charge source to a voltage that is less than fully charged so that it only 'contributes' to keep the battery above a certain voltage, not actually fully charge it. When i was running my house on lead acid I had some charge sources set to ~49v that would only 'kick in' and do anything if my pack dropped below 49 volts. Once the pack rose above 49 the charge source would 'idle' and just sit there drawing a few watts to stay on but not actually doing anything.
 
Keep in mind if you are both charging @ 40 amps with one thing and drawing @ 40 amps with another thing, you aren't charging the battery at all! So you could be using a 55amp charge source and still be staying within your number in that situation.

One way you could do something along these lines that i have done before, is simply set a charge source to a voltage that is less than fully charged so that it only 'contributes' to keep the battery above a certain voltage, not actually fully charge it. When i was running my house on lead acid I had some charge sources set to ~49v that would only 'kick in' and do anything if my pack dropped below 49 volts. Once the pack rose above 49 the charge source would 'idle' and just sit there drawing a few watts to stay on but not actually doing anything.

Good to hear that. I considered getting some extra pv and a 24/12 converter and tie that into the battery but wasn't sure if that would interfere with my victron charge controller knowing what to do or not. It wouldn't be an issue except that there will be intermittent loads used as well and will need at least some battery left should use fall out of peek hours. I wanted to make sure I had the fundamentals right as far as the charge amps vs ah was concerned. Thanks for your help!
 
How would a 24/12 converter factor into the system?

Would you have 24v battery system then use the buck converter to feed the 12v load?

That buck converter has losses too you know.
 
The thing about losses from charge source is they scale with current, so when current is low or zero the losses are near zero as well. It really doesn't cost much to keep most of these voltage sources on at 'idle'.

So like if you had a 24 > 13.8v step down converter on a 12v lifepo4 system, it would be working most of the time but would draw almost nothing when your battery was 'full' and above 13.8v. Or if you used a 24 > 12v model it would only kick in when the battery was nearly empty as thats the only time a '12v' (4s) lifepo4 would actually go below 12.0 volts. The rest of the time it might draw 1, 2, 3 watts just sitting there 'on' and doing nothing.

Also, i agree the charge rate is overly conservative. Most lifepo4 from what ive seen (here and in product listings anyway) will tolerate a .5c charge rate with good longevity, which would be 50a on a 100ah battery. I dont know what the shape of the curve is but it seems like when you charge at a faster rate you are just trading away some cycle life, but i think a lot of these lifepo4 are in applications where they would never die from 'cycling out' anyway so in those situations charging at a higher rate could be considered as costing you 'nothing really'. At least, that's my understanding. I guess it really depends on if you think you are going to put the equivalent of many thousands of cycles on that system or not. Keeping in mind if you did one cycle a day, it would take almost a decade to hit 3000 cycles, and a lot of systems cycle less than once per day at which point you get into questions like 'will i even still be alive by then'. :ROFLMAO:
 
15 amps per 100 ah as I have seen the suggested limit for battery heath
This is typically suggested for lead acid batteries.
For lithium, a ready built low 100Ah cost battery may have a BMS with maximum charge current 50 amps, recommended 25 amps , with a discharge limit of 100 A. These limits are largely related to the design of the BMS. The more expensive 100Ah batteries will tollerate up to 100A charge for a 100Ah battery with a recomended 50 amp charge.
To reduce charge current add more amp hours.
With a 12v system and under 50 amps load there is not much to be gained in going for a higher voltage system.
 
15 amps per 100 Ah of battery is a very low charge rate. Are you sure that's what's recommended for your battery?

The battery doesn't say just going by what I have been told. 10 to 15 percent of the amp hour rating unless you want to shorten the life or pose a fire risk was what I found consistently when searching the net. Though it has a 100a bms. I've been told that by members of this forum as well. Is that incorrect?
 
This is typically suggested for lead acid batteries.
For lithium, a ready built low 100Ah cost battery may have a BMS with maximum charge current 50 amps, recommended 25 amps , with a discharge limit of 100 A. These limits are largely related to the design of the BMS. The more expensive 100Ah batteries will tollerate up to 100A charge for a 100Ah battery with a recomended 50 amp charge.
To reduce charge current add more amp hours.
With a 12v system and under 50 amps load there is not much to be gained in going for a higher voltage system.

Unfortunately I got had by a battery scam and the battery is questionable. It's said they have been the cause of fire but most likely that was due to the battery being labeled as 400ah and it's in actuality a 100ah. It's a matter of trust invthe battery it's self. I thought it was rather odd that c2 and c3 was suggested but I did find that recommendation all over the Internet as well as in this forum by a few.
 
The thing about losses from charge source is they scale with current, so when current is low or zero the losses are near zero as well. It really doesn't cost much to keep most of these voltage sources on at 'idle'.

So like if you had a 24 > 13.8v step down converter on a 12v lifepo4 system, it would be working most of the time but would draw almost nothing when your battery was 'full' and above 13.8v. Or if you used a 24 > 12v model it would only kick in when the battery was nearly empty as thats the only time a '12v' (4s) lifepo4 would actually go below 12.0 volts. The rest of the time it might draw 1, 2, 3 watts just sitting there 'on' and doing nothing.

Also, i agree the charge rate is overly conservative. Most lifepo4 from what ive seen (here and in product listings anyway) will tolerate a .5c charge rate with good longevity, which would be 50a on a 100ah battery. I dont know what the shape of the curve is but it seems like when you charge at a faster rate you are just trading away some cycle life, but i think a lot of these lifepo4 are in applications where they would never die from 'cycling out' anyway so in those situations charging at a higher rate could be considered as costing you 'nothing really'. At least, that's my understanding. I guess it really depends on if you think you are going to put the equivalent of many thousands of cycles on that system or not. Keeping in mind if you did one cycle a day, it would take almost a decade to hit 3000 cycles, and a lot of systems cycle less than once per day at which point you get into questions like 'will i even still be alive by then'. :ROFLMAO:

It's a cheap Chinese battery so I'm scared 🔥😂🔥
 
Not sure I can trust this with a low quality battery. It suppose to be a 12v400 ah but it's only a 100 with a 400 lable. Someone in the forum said if they lied about ah what else did they lie about? I may beat it today with 50 amps and see if it cooks or not 😂
 

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