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Common Neutral Split Phase and Neutral-Ground-Bond EG4 Six Inverter Installation

Need to test for Continuity between neutral and ground, in bypass mode. But without an incoming ground. (Otherwise you will read the main service panel N/G bond)
Good point Tim.

My concern remains in the DC modes (PV and Battery) and less when in bypass mode, I.e., what happens when more than one inverter is applying an NG bond to the AC output. I am confident the NG bond is removed when AC input is demanded, but would like to see the evidence. I am curious when some AC current is used to supplement batteries, how does the NG bond logic work. I hope to get time this week to do more testing and will report back. Appreciate any feedback or other test results. -Jay
 
Good point Tim.

My concern remains in the DC modes (PV and Battery) and less when in bypass mode, I.e., what happens when more than one inverter is applying an NG bond to the AC output. I am confident the NG bond is removed when AC input is demanded, but would like to see the evidence. I am curious when some AC current is used to supplement batteries, how does the NG bond logic work. I hope to get time this week to do more testing and will report back. Appreciate any feedback or other test results. -Jay
In battery/ inverting mode. The inverters are the source of power. While it's best to only have one N/G bond. It's not a huge issue in this mode.
For current to flow on the grounding conductor. It would have to travel up the wrong inverters neutral. Then, It would have to travel from the N/G bond in that inverter. Down to the ground bar in the loads panel (or wherever the ground conductors come together) . Then back up the ground conductor to the second inverter. And through its N/G bond.
This is generally not the path of least resistance. Which electricity will always follow.
 
Thanks Tim! Appreciate the explanation. The concern comes from FilterGuys description below, with the concern summarized as “it can be difficult to meet the Ground Fault and PV Arc fault protection requirements of the NEC with these units.” Meaning when multiple inverters are running.

https://diysolarforum.com/resources/grounding-and-bonding-for-mpp-lv6548-and-eg4-6500ex-48.275/
I'm sure that they probably don't meet ground fault and arc fault requirements. (Most aren't)
But that's not important, unless you are getting inspected. As for grounding, there's always a solution.
 
I'm sure that they probably don't meet ground fault and arc fault requirements. (Most aren't)
But that's not important, unless you are getting inspected. As for grounding, there's always a solution.
Well shoot.
 
Good point Tim.

My concern remains in the DC modes (PV and Battery) and less when in bypass mode, I.e., what happens when more than one inverter is applying an NG bond to the AC output. I am confident the NG bond is removed when AC input is demanded, but would like to see the evidence. I am curious when some AC current is used to supplement batteries, how does the NG bond logic work. I hope to get time this week to do more testing and will report back. Appreciate any feedback or other test results. -Jay
My understanding is there will never be AC supplementing the batteries (if I am understanding the statement correctly). The inverters will invert the DC or pass through the AC but never both simultaneously.
 
My understanding is there will never be AC supplementing the batteries (if I am understanding the statement correctly). The inverters will invert the DC or pass through the AC but never both simultaneously.
Correct
AC and battery are in separate modes.
Never together.
 
Correct
AC and battery are in separate modes.
Never together.
So the system Perhaps one day the manufacturers will provide this information. I envisioned that in the case of morning battery SOC levels, that the PV DC input would provide some demand while the AC input would charge the batteries if the SOC set point is reached. Appreciate the insight!
 
Happy to report I have 4 of 6 inverters operating in parallel, split-phase for the first time. Everything is running normal. Hope to get last two configured and up and running tomorrow.
That's awesome, my 4 only ran 7 minutes before they started throwing F08 faults. I'll save that for another thread but I do wonder if running 6 inverters increases the likelihood that you will run into it also.
 
Thank you for your reply and recommendation. I have read about one phase like L1 having a NG bond while leaving L2 open. It is not clear to my why any inverters need to have a NG bond.
The best option (which requires opening the inverters) is to disable inverter N/G bonding (if it actually exists). And carry the common neutral, from the first means of disconnect, through your system, to the final loads panel.

The challenge is that 1) the manufacturers are saying common neutral is dangerous and 2) some distributers are saying removing the NG bond screw will void the warranty.
 
The challenge is that 1) the manufacturers are saying common neutral is dangerous and 2) some distributers are saying removing the NG bond screw will void the warranty.
These same manufacturers are creating multiple N/G bonds. Which turns the ground conductor into a common neutral.
And yes opening the unit will probably void the warranty. However, I'm not sure if the warranty is worth the paper it's written on. But definitely something to be mindful of.
 
That's awesome, my 4 only ran 7 minutes before they started throwing F08 faults. I'll save that for another thread but I do wonder if running 6 inverters increases the likelihood that you will run into it also.
Will let you know tomorrow. First I have to build longer current sharing cables. I got my 12’ VGA cables in today so I am ready tomorrow.
 
These same manufacturers are creating multiple N/G bonds. Which turns the ground conductor into a common neutral.
And yes opening the unit will probably void the warranty. However, I'm not sure if the warranty is worth the paper it's written on. But definitely something to be mindful of.
I have been waiting 1.5 weeks for an RMA from SS. Wrote a final email saying provide the warranty return or a chargeback is my only remedy.
 
I have been waiting 1.5 weeks for an RMA from SS. Wrote a final email saying provide the warranty return or a chargeback is my only remedy.
As time goes on, my excitement around these value-priced inverters has diminished. For myself, I will be sticking with the higher-end inverters. Yes, it means I will pay more but as a friend once told me, when you buy quality, you only regret it when you pay. If you don't buy quality, you are likely to regret it over and over again.

The issues with the value-priced inverters can be lumped into a few categories:

1) Functional Design Flaws.
These are flaws where the inverter works exactly as intended but does not meet the need of the intended application.
Example: A design that does not allow the proper set-up of grounding and bonding of stacked inverters.
This type of flaw can usually be avoided and still have a value-priced inverter. To me, these are the worst because it shows the manufacturer does not understand (or does not care about) the needs of the customer.

2) Design Flaws.
These flaws are due to intentional or unintentional design choices that cause unintended errors in the operation of the unit. (Bugs in the firmware are examples of many of the design flaws that get into customers' hands). This can often be avoided and still have a value-priced inverter, but the designer is always pushed for the lowest cost design, not the best design. The lack of adequate testing before the model goes into production amplifies this because the flaws are not found.

3) Cheap component flaws.
The value manufacturer is always looking for the cheapest parts they can find..... this often results in the inverter being built with out-of-spec parts or parts with high failure rates. This will always be a potential problem with value-price inverters because the component costs are such a high proportion of the manufacturing costs. (note, some of the component decisions are made in the design phase and could (should?) be considered design flaws.)

4) Manufacturing flaws.
The value manufacturer will cut corners wherever possible.... this includes the extra costs of the processes and automation that can help ensure the units are built correctly. The lack of adequate Unit testing is one of the ways they reduce manufacturing process costs. This is particularly bad because this ensures the customer gets the problems.

5) Support flaws.
A whole lot of sins fall into this category. Poor documentation, poor technical support, and poor return policies are among them.
Ironically, because of all the other potential issues, support is more important with the value inverters.

I do believe that a conscientious manufacturer could deliver a value-priced inverter that has reasonable quality, but that is not what we see happening in the industry right now. Instead, most of the value-priced inverters are being designed and built by one manufacturer and then branded for sale under a different name. This puts the true manufacturer at arm's length from the customer and does not emphasize quality. It only emphasizes low cost. Furthermore, since all the brands are essentially the same, no one company will differentiate on quality and there is no competitive pressure to improve the quality.
 
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As time goes on, my excitement around these value-priced inverters has diminished. For myself, I will be sticking with the higher-end inverters. Yes, it means I will pay more but as a friend once told me, when you buy quality, you only regret it when you pay. If you don't buy quality, you are likely to regret it over and over again.

The issues with the value-priced inverters can be lumped into a few categories:

1) Functional Design Flaws.
These are flaws where the works exactly as intended but do not meet the need of the intended application.
Example: A design that does not allow the proper set-up of grounding and bonding of stacked inverters.
This type of flaw can usually be avoided and still have a value-priced inverter. To me, these are the worst because it shows the manufacturer does not understand (or does not care about) the needs of the customer.

2) Design Flaws.
These flaws are due to intentional or unintentional design choices that cause unintended errors in the operation of the unit. (Bugs in the firmware are examples of many of the design flaws that get into customers' hands). This can often be avoided and still have a value-priced inverter, but the designer is always pushed for the lowest cost design, not the best design. The lack of adequate testing before the model goes into production amplifies this because the flaws are not found.

3) Cheap component flaws.
The value manufacturer is always looking for the cheapest parts they can find..... this often results in the inverter being built with out-of-spec parts or parts with high failure rates. This will always be a potential problem with value-price inverters because the component costs are such a high proportion of the manufacturing costs. (note, some of the component decisions are made in the design phase and could (should?) be considered design flaws.

4) Manufacturing flaws.
The value manufacturer will cut corners wherever possible.... this includes the extra costs of the process and automation that can help ensure the units are built correctly. The lack of adequate Unit testing is one of the ways they reduce manufacturing process costs. This is particularly bad because this ensures the customer gets the problems.

5) Support flaws.
A whole lot of sins fall into this category. Poor documentation, poor technical support, and poor return policies are among them.
Ironically, because of all the other potential issues, support is more important with the value inverters.

I do believe that a conscientious manufacturer could deliver a value-priced inverter that has reasonable quality, but that is not what we see happening in the industry right now. Instead, most of the value-priced inverters are being designed and built by one manufacturer and then branded for sale under a different name. This puts the true manufacturer at arm's length from the customer and does not emphasize quality. It only emphasizes low cost. Furthermore, since all the brands are essentially the same, no one company will differentiate on quality and there is no competitive pressure to improve the quality.
Agree completely.
I will add that it takes a higher level of understanding electricity to use some of these units safely.
 
As time goes on, my excitement around these value-priced inverters has diminished. For myself, I will be sticking with the higher-end inverters. Yes, it means I will pay more but as a friend once told me, when you buy quality, you only regret it when you pay. If you don't buy quality, you are likely to regret it over and over again.

The issues with the value-priced inverters can be lumped into a few categories:

1) Functional Design Flaws.
These are flaws where the inverter works exactly as intended but does not meet the need of the intended application.
Example: A design that does not allow the proper set-up of grounding and bonding of stacked inverters.
This type of flaw can usually be avoided and still have a value-priced inverter. To me, these are the worst because it shows the manufacturer does not understand (or does not care about) the needs of the customer.

2) Design Flaws.
These flaws are due to intentional or unintentional design choices that cause unintended errors in the operation of the unit. (Bugs in the firmware are examples of many of the design flaws that get into customers' hands). This can often be avoided and still have a value-priced inverter, but the designer is always pushed for the lowest cost design, not the best design. The lack of adequate testing before the model goes into production amplifies this because the flaws are not found.

3) Cheap component flaws.
The value manufacturer is always looking for the cheapest parts they can find..... this often results in the inverter being built with out-of-spec parts or parts with high failure rates. This will always be a potential problem with value-price inverters because the component costs are such a high proportion of the manufacturing costs. (note, some of the component decisions are made in the design phase and could (should?) be considered design flaws.)

4) Manufacturing flaws.
The value manufacturer will cut corners wherever possible.... this includes the extra costs of the processes and automation that can help ensure the units are built correctly. The lack of adequate Unit testing is one of the ways they reduce manufacturing process costs. This is particularly bad because this ensures the customer gets the problems.

5) Support flaws.
A whole lot of sins fall into this category. Poor documentation, poor technical support, and poor return policies are among them.
Ironically, because of all the other potential issues, support is more important with the value inverters.

I do believe that a conscientious manufacturer could deliver a value-priced inverter that has reasonable quality, but that is not what we see happening in the industry right now. Instead, most of the value-priced inverters are being designed and built by one manufacturer and then branded for sale under a different name. This puts the true manufacturer at arm's length from the customer and does not emphasize quality. It only emphasizes low cost. Furthermore, since all the brands are essentially the same, no one company will differentiate on quality and there is no competitive pressure to improve the quality.
BTW:
When EG4 first burst onto the scene a while back they were saying all the right things to make me think they would be better.... but alas, my hope has faded. I had hoped they would force changes in the design and manufacturing processes but it does not appear to be happening. They have slightly better support than MPP and Growatt, but everything else appears to be the same. (Great support does not fix a fundamentally flawed product)

They could still surprise me but it has not yet happened.
 
As time goes on, my excitement around these value-priced inverters has diminished. For myself, I will be sticking with the higher-end inverters. Yes, it means I will pay more but as a friend once told me, when you buy quality, you only regret it when you pay. If you don't buy quality, you are likely to regret it over and over again.

The issues with the value-priced inverters can be lumped into a few categories:

1) Functional Design Flaws.
These are flaws where the inverter works exactly as intended but does not meet the need of the intended application.
Example: A design that does not allow the proper set-up of grounding and bonding of stacked inverters.
This type of flaw can usually be avoided and still have a value-priced inverter. To me, these are the worst because it shows the manufacturer does not understand (or does not care about) the needs of the customer.

2) Design Flaws.
These flaws are due to intentional or unintentional design choices that cause unintended errors in the operation of the unit. (Bugs in the firmware are examples of many of the design flaws that get into customers' hands). This can often be avoided and still have a value-priced inverter, but the designer is always pushed for the lowest cost design, not the best design. The lack of adequate testing before the model goes into production amplifies this because the flaws are not found.

3) Cheap component flaws.
The value manufacturer is always looking for the cheapest parts they can find..... this often results in the inverter being built with out-of-spec parts or parts with high failure rates. This will always be a potential problem with value-price inverters because the component costs are such a high proportion of the manufacturing costs. (note, some of the component decisions are made in the design phase and could (should?) be considered design flaws.)

4) Manufacturing flaws.
The value manufacturer will cut corners wherever possible.... this includes the extra costs of the processes and automation that can help ensure the units are built correctly. The lack of adequate Unit testing is one of the ways they reduce manufacturing process costs. This is particularly bad because this ensures the customer gets the problems.

5) Support flaws.
A whole lot of sins fall into this category. Poor documentation, poor technical support, and poor return policies are among them.
Ironically, because of all the other potential issues, support is more important with the value inverters.

I do believe that a conscientious manufacturer could deliver a value-priced inverter that has reasonable quality, but that is not what we see happening in the industry right now. Instead, most of the value-priced inverters are being designed and built by one manufacturer and then branded for sale under a different name. This puts the true manufacturer at arm's length from the customer and does not emphasize quality. It only emphasizes low cost. Furthermore, since all the brands are essentially the same, no one company will differentiate on quality and there is no competitive pressure to improve the quality.
Filter Guy - incredibly well said. If I had to do it over again, knowing what I have experienced… I would change a few design elements for sure. It is a shame that these units could be a ton better with a few document changes, which I submitted to SS for their incorporation. Spokespeople like Will Prowse gives the community hope and a bit of false promise and confidence that unfortunately does not represent the true value or quality of these products and paints SS in a better light than what most are experiencing. I finally got a warranty RMA after threatening a chargeback. It should never come to that.
 
Filter Guy - incredibly well said. If I had to do it over again, knowing what I have experienced… I would change a few design elements for sure. It is a shame that these units could be a ton better with a few document changes, which I submitted to SS for their incorporation. Spokespeople like Will Prowse gives the community hope and a bit of false promise and confidence that unfortunately does not represent the true value or quality of these products and paints SS in a better light than what most are experiencing. I finally got a warranty RMA after threatening a chargeback. It should never come to that.
One thing to keep in mind is that Value-priced inverters often work very well for people. If the application doesn't run into design flaws, and doesn't get a unit with a manufacturing problem, they may be able to run the unit for a very long time without an issue. For a simple application with a single inverter, I would say there is a significantly better than 75% chance the user won't have an issue (at least for a while).

However, I don't want to be in the other 25%. I have seen too many posts from too many people about problems with these units. Granted, a lot of the problems are user errors, but a lot are not. How many posts have we seen that say something like "It was working fine for a while but then......"

I *really* hate spending time dealing with a failed product....particularly for something as fundamental as powering a living space. It is worth a significant premium to me to be able to build the system and it just works and keeps working. This is even more important to me when I help others design/build a system. When I am involved, I have a sense of responsibility from then on. Even if the problem comes up months after the system is commissioned and has nothing to do with me, I feel bad about the person having a problem.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that Value-priced inverters often work very well for people. If the application doesn't run into design flaws, and doesn't get a unit with a manufacturing problem, they may be able to run the unit for a very long time without an issue. For a simple application with a single inverter, I would say there is a significantly better than 75% chance the user won't have an issue (at least for a while).

However, I don't want to be in the other 25%. I have seen too many posts from too many people about problems with these units. Granted, a lot of the problems are user errors, but a lot are not. How many posts have we seen that say something like "It was working fine for a while but then......"

I *really* hate spending time dealing with a failed product....particularly for something as fundamental as powering a living space. It is worth a significant premium to me to be able to build the system and it just works and keeps working. This is even more important to me when I help others design/build a system. When I am involved, I have a sense of responsibility from then on. Even if the problem comes up months after the system is commissioned and has nothing to do with me, I feel bad about the person having a problem.
I am with you Filter Guy. Your passion and precision to detail comes through loud and clear. There are a lot of building materials used that have way too short of a lifespan. I think 20 years should be the minimum design goal when something is costly or installation is complex exceeding 100 hours.
 
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