Contemplating a hybrid system instead of just grid-tie, but having trouble thinking through layout. Roof 400 ft away from most of loads/service entry

[cdherman]

My family farm has a large shed, 60x120 approx with a great southern exposure, metal roof that a good pitch etc. But the service entrance for the house, and much of the load (like large motors, fans, water pumps, welders etc) fans out from the meter pole, about 400 ft from the shed.

With plain old grid tie, I could just put the inverter in the shed, put a nice disconnect box by the service pole and all would be fine. This is how I did my own grid tie in 2009. Utility is happy that I have the disconnect right by the meter.

But then, I start reading today and see how we now have these nice new all in one systems. Is hybrid the same as "all in one"? I assume yes. Anyhow, if I put the batteries in the shed I won't have a practical way of getting the power back to the house during loss of power from the utility (this side of some very illegal and unwise wiring hacks). Or is there a solution? Running heavy enough lines to and back from the shed would be ghastly expensive. I'm already looking at 500 mcm Al I think for 200A sub panel....

Hope this makes sense.....

 

[schmism]

Some new AIO inverters support up to 400v DC so long wire runs are more affordable and can still be done with DIY 600v rated wire.

Panels on the barn, high voltage DC run to the house were the inverter and battery. I prefer the critical loads pannel approach that never feeds back to the grid.

 

[cdherman]

Some new AIO inverters support up to 400v DC so long wire runs are more affordable and can still be done with DIY 600v rated wire.

Panels on the barn, high voltage DC run to the house were the inverter and battery. I prefer the critical loads pannel approach that never feeds back to the grid.

I considered that, but it leaves me still needing to run 240v wiring back to the shed. And I would be reluctant (I think its not code) to bury those those two sets of wires in the same trench......

I am contemplating moving the entrance pole to the shed..... Pretty radical I know, but just so happens we need to move the pole eventually anyhow to make room for a new shed by the main area of the farm. Then I could have the batteries, AIO and panels all up by the distant shed. Would have to run darn heavy wire back to main farm, but I had planned for that already.... Farm has some motors that pull 40A 240v. But I gather correctly, the EG4 should handle that. They surge at the start however...

 

[niktak11]

I considered that, but it leaves me still needing to run 240v wiring back to the shed. And I would be reluctant (I think its not code) to bury those those two sets of wires in the same trench......

I am contemplating moving the entrance pole to the shed..... Pretty radical I know, but just so happens we need to move the pole eventually anyhow to make room for a new shed by the main area of the farm. Then I could have the batteries, AIO and panels all up by the distant shed. Would have to run darn heavy wire back to main farm, but I had planned for that already.... Farm has some motors that pull 40A 240v. But I gather correctly, the EG4 should handle that. They surge at the start however...

If 40A is the running current then it's very unlikely that'll they'll be able to handle the 6-8x higher starting surge. My AC compressor runs at 15-16A but the surge (without a soft starter) is 110+ A. You'll need a massive low frequency inverter or 3+ Sol-ark 15k.

 

[cdherman]

If 40A is the running current then it's very unlikely that'll they'll be able to handle the 6-8x higher starting surge. My AC compressor runs at 15-16A but the surge (without a soft starter) is 110+ A. You'll need a massive low frequency inverter or 3+ Sol-ark 15k.

I meant using the grid pass through. Spec sheet says the EG4 can pass through up to 200A. I am under no illusions that running a 20hp electric motor using solar would be a hot idea! That motor pushes tons of air through grain in storage. They would not need it during a power outage.

I am actually now contemplating just putting up solar in a grid tie net metered setup, with no batteries, but getting an AIO unit such as the EG4 or Sol-Ark. The farm at any given time probably has 500 Ah of 12v flooded batteries in various tractors, semis etc. In a SHTF scenario, all that stuff would not move anyhow. Could rewire things from grid tie to off grid solar pretty easy in a pinch...... If the utility appeared to be down for the count if you know what I mean......

 

[MarkSolar]

You might look into the various options for utility service. You can have multiple meters for one service. You can also have multiple services If they're separate properties. If your farm is like ours it is two separate tax pins, so you could run a separate service to the farm property and keep the existing one for residential. The utilities can put in service lines cheaper because they have different code and they probably buy a million miles of cable a year. We had a service change that was about 300' and they trenched that in with a new meter, total cost was a fraction of what I could have run a line to a 200A subpanel from our old service. No idea if your state and utility is like ours, but worth asking.

 

[niktak11]

You might look into the various options for utility service. You can have multiple meters for one service. You can also have multiple services If they're separate properties. If your farm is like ours it is two separate tax pins, so you could run a separate service to the farm property and keep the existing one for residential. The utilities can put in service lines cheaper because they have different code and they probably buy a million miles of cable a year. We had a service change that was about 300' and they trenched that in with a new meter, total cost was a fraction of what I could have run a line to a 200A subpanel from our old service. No idea if your state and utility is like ours, but worth asking.

How much did it cost? I'm looking to do something similar. I'm waiting to hear back with an estimate from a directional boring company.

 

[MarkSolar]

How much did it cost? I'm looking to do something similar. I'm waiting to hear back with an estimate from a directional boring company.

$1200 but that was in 2006, and I have no idea how the cost was divided up. That included connecting to a different but existing pedestal, providing a new meter, trenching in a pvc conduit and pulling the cable. They didn't do directional boring so much back then. We're on glacial till, so even cable designed for direct burial can have a short life because the rocks pierce the insulation. We had one service line short out and blow out the fuse on the utility pole. Sounded like a shotgun in the middle of the night.

 

[cdherman]

Rolling Hills in western KS is a cooperative. AFAIK, no residential versus business rates, at least for remote farms. We already have 6 different meters in various locations. $55 a month for a meter, so yup, $330/month in meter fees. So $660 a year to pump water for the cows in one location. I've been trying to talk my family into a solar pump there, but there is a sort of inertia. Don't like change. It is incredibly expensive for the utility to provide service and maintain the lines. Miles of lines and poles to service one lonely farm sometimes. The actual kwh rate is quite acceptable at $0.136. So BEV makes a ton of sense. Doing solar really is not so much an attempt to save money NOW, as much as I fear that the crazies will take away grid tie and net metering completely. I think existing installations would be grandfathered. So need to get something up on the roof and functional.

On a tangent -- had the REA (Rural Electrification Association) not had federal money in the 50's to bring power to these remote farms, it would have likely never happened. BUT, my grandfathers (both of them) had 32v wind generators in the 40's already. One even had a DC 32v arc welder! Said you could only weld if the wind was blowing! But it does that a lot in western KS. I suspect that had REA never happened, the US would be the overwhelming leader in PV and Wind because of all those decades of forced reliance on alternative systems. Mind you, I am not anti-government, nor do I fault the well meaning intentions and rational of helping poor farmers get power. But its an example of un-intended consequences......

 

[niktak11]

Rolling Hills in western KS is a cooperative. AFAIK, no residential versus business rates, at least for remote farms. We already have 6 different meters in various locations. $55 a month for a meter, so yup, $330/month in meter fees. So $660 a year to pump water for the cows in one location. I've been trying to talk my family into a solar pump there, but there is a sort of inertia. Don't like change. It is incredibly expensive for the utility to provide service and maintain the lines. Miles of lines and poles to service one lonely farm sometimes. The actual kwh rate is quite acceptable at $0.136. So BEV makes a ton of sense. Doing solar really is not so much an attempt to save money NOW, as much as I fear that the crazies will take away grid tie and net metering completely. I think existing installations would be grandfathered. So need to get something up on the roof and functional.

On a tangent -- had the REA (Rural Electrification Association) not had federal money in the 50's to bring power to these remote farms, it would have likely never happened. BUT, my grandfathers (both of them) had 32v wind generators in the 40's already. One even had a DC 32v arc welder! Said you could only weld if the wind was blowing! But it does that a lot in western KS. I suspect that had REA never happened, the US would be the overwhelming leader in PV and Wind because of all those decades of forced reliance on alternative systems. Mind you, I am not anti-government, nor do I fault the well meaning intentions and rational of helping poor farmers get power. But its an example of un-intended consequences......

How far away are the meters from each other? If it was me I'd be consolidating down to fewer meters ASAP. I'm trying to consolidate down to one meter just to avoid an extra $20/month.

 

[Hedges]

Single phase or 3-phase? (240V sounds like single/split phase typical for houses.)

How many watts DC, and AC, of PV do you want?

You could put grid tie PV inverter on the shed, SMA Sunny Boy for single phase, either Sunny Boy or Sunny TriPower for 3-phase.

Back at the utility meter, put a safety switch as disconnect, feed it to "AC2" grid input of 2x or 4x Sunny Island for split phase, 3x Sunny Island for 3-phase.

Sunny Boy is being discontinued, but the hybrid Sunny Boy Smart Energy will replace it, would also to the Rule-21 frequency-watts that is needed for AC coupling to Sunny Island.

I've also heard Sunny Island is being discontinued. Don't know if the newer model in Europe will come here or not.

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[cdherman]

How far away are the meters from each other? If it was me I'd be consolidating down to fewer meters ASAP. I'm trying to consolidate down to one meter just to avoid an extra $20/month.

Well the closest 2 meters are 2 miles apart. The furthest south to the most northerly is about 14 miles. So I don't think "consolidating" is an option. In many ways we are just happy to have power. As I noted, one of the meters really should be removed and replaced with a solar water well pump.