Do We Need a Control Group?

[Bob B]

Here's a clue for you
View attachment 127602

Yes ... I think I acknowledged that this was an opinion piece in the first paragraph of my post .... maybe you missed that.

But .... it is an opinion published in the Wall Street Journal .... which by itself makes it important. The WSJ is publishing an opinion .... based on several scientific studies .... and they link to those studies ... and they totally excoriate the continuing push to get people vaccinated and boosted.

This only addresses 1 part of the story ..... They are pointing to several studies that prove the vaccines are NO LONGER EFFECTIVE.
The other part .... no addressed in this article ... is all the vaccine injuries that are being more well documented .... So .... NOT SAFE, NOT EFFECTIVE.

 

[Bob B]

Oh .... I forget who questioned it, but physicians are being threatened for loss of license for "Covid Misinformation." It's now law in California

https://twitter.com/x/status/1610061696390815746

This is beyond crazy. Who is to decide what is misinformation? Most of what was declared misinformation a year ago regarding Covid is now being proven to be correct information .... Seems like a Lawyers dream kind of law.

 

[bradbill]

LOL..the same Simone Gold that embezzled over 3 million dollars from the quack America's Frontline Doctors group? The same Simone Gold that got jailed for her actions on Jan 6th?

Bobby Bullshit can't stop his antics!

 

[Bob B]

..... And, another new study which understands the value of the unvaccinated control group.

Age-stratified infection fatality rate of COVID-19 in the non-elderly population

The largest burden of COVID-19 is carried by the elderly, and persons living in nursing homes are particularly vulnerable. However, 94% of the global …

www.sciencedirect.com

If you reverse the "infection fatality rate" ..... you get the infection survival rate, which is much better than previously reported.

 

[bradbill]

There are some morons that are stating the Bills player that went into cardiac arrest during the MNF game did so because of his covid vaccination.

We have become a nation of science denying idiots.

 

[LeoThomson]

unvaccinated control group

If you want to volunteer to refuse the vaccine to see the difference in mortality rate between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated that is fine with me Bob. I also think we need some people that are willing not to look both ways before crossing a street. /s

United States: COVID-19 weekly death rate by vaccination status

Death rates are calculated as the number of deaths in each group, divided by the total number of people in this group. This is given per 100,000 people.

ourworldindata.org

 

[Hedges]

I also think we need some people that are willing not to look both ways before crossing a street. /s

Hey, if you'd like to volunteer to be part of the test group for Toxoplasmosis, you could also be part of the control group that doesn't look both ways before stepping out in front of a bus

Toxoplasmosis Infection? No Fear!

A new study has revealed how the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis colonizes the mouse brain in the form of cysts to such an extent that it drastically alters the mouse’s behavior.

www.technologynetworks.com

We've already had volunteers for a double-blind study on the effectiveness of parachutes:

Parachute double-blind study

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14684649/

diysolarforum.com

... but seriously, it is valuable to compare infection, mortality, and general health outcomes for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. I've read the phase-3 Pfizer trial (interim?) results, and it is quite impressive just how many adverse effects were experienced following a saline injection. The field results for protection by the vaccine would be confounded similarly or even worse.

Outcomes need to be determined for groups of various health and other conditions, and published as a set of data, not just a single "effectiveness" number, which could be driven to any desired value by weighting toward, for instance, a 4-week window shortly after booster. Ideally a family of curves, effectiveness vs. time since vaccination, for health 20-something males, or seniors with multiple co-morbidities, etc.

 

[Bob B]

Hey, if you'd like to volunteer to be part of the test group for Toxoplasmosis, you could also be part of the control group that doesn't look both ways before stepping out in front of a bus

Toxoplasmosis Infection? No Fear!

A new study has revealed how the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis colonizes the mouse brain in the form of cysts to such an extent that it drastically alters the mouse’s behavior.

www.technologynetworks.com

We've already had volunteers for a double-blind study on the effectiveness of parachutes:

Parachute double-blind study

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14684649/

diysolarforum.com

... but seriously, it is valuable to compare infection, mortality, and general health outcomes for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. I've read the phase-3 Pfizer trial (interim?) results, and it is quite impressive just how many adverse effects were experienced following a saline injection. The field results for protection by the vaccine would be confounded similarly or even worse.

Outcomes need to be determined for groups of various health and other conditions, and published as a set of data, not just a single "effectiveness" number, which could be driven to any desired value by weighting toward, for instance, a 4-week window shortly after booster. Ideally a family of curves, effectiveness vs. time since vaccination, for health 20-something males, or seniors with multiple co-morbidities, etc.

I suppose it is possible that some are experiencing a reverse placebo type effect from getting the vaccines .... but I doubt seriously that myocarditis or pericarditis or blood clots can result from that. It would probably be some of the less serious symptoms.
But .... It would be good to have some studies that compare what type side effects from the vaccine vs saline that aren't done by the vaccine Mfg .... please put me in the saline group.

 

[Bob B]

If you want to volunteer to refuse the vaccine to see the difference in mortality rate between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated that is fine with me Bob. I also think we need some people that are willing not to look both ways before crossing a street. /s

United States: COVID-19 weekly death rate by vaccination status

Death rates are calculated as the number of deaths in each group, divided by the total number of people in this group. This is given per 100,000 people.

ourworldindata.org

That chart is exactly the opposite of some of the other recent studies .... I didn't look into how the data you posted is collected.
This all should become more clear in the next couple of years and we will find out who has been passing our bad data and who has good data.

If you look at those studies in the WSJ article, you will see that they are supporting the findings of the Cleveland Clinic study ... and other studies I have posted here are beginning to show the reasons for the Cleveland Clinic outcomes.
Did you see the study I posted that analyzed antibodies ... which ones are boosted and which ones suppressed by the boosters? Independent analysts are finally getting funding and are now able to get published.

Can you explain why excess mortality has increased every year since the vaccine was introduced? With Covid becoming less virulent and a large % of people vaccinated excess mortality should be way down instead of increasing every year like it has.
Have you looked at some of the frightening data insurance companies are putting out?

 

[Bob B]

... but seriously, it is valuable to compare infection, mortality, and general health outcomes for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. I've read the phase-3 Pfizer trial (interim?) results, and it is quite impressive just how many adverse effects were experienced following a saline injection. The field results for protection by the vaccine would be confounded similarly or even worse.

Outcomes need to be determined for groups of various health and other conditions, and published as a set of data, not just a single "effectiveness" number, which could be driven to any desired value by weighting toward, for instance, a 4-week window shortly after booster. Ideally a family of curves, effectiveness vs. time since vaccination, for health 20-something males, or seniors with multiple co-morbidities, etc.

Have you seen this study? .... It used the original Pfizer and Moderna trial data from 2020.

Serious adverse events of special interest following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in randomized trials in adults - PubMed

The excess risk of serious adverse events found in our study points to the need for formal harm-benefit analyses, particularly those that are stratified according to risk of serious COVID-19 outcomes. These analyses will require public release of participant level datasets.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Below is the result from that study:

 

[Hedges]

I suppose it is possible that some are experiencing a reverse placebo type effect from getting the vaccines .... but I doubt seriously that myocarditis or pericarditis or blood clots can result from that. It would probably be some of the less serious symptoms.
But .... It would be good to have some studies that compare what type side effects from the vaccine vs saline that aren't done by the vaccine Mfg .... please put me in the saline group.

My point being that when you have 35,000 people in each of the test group and the vaccine group, there is quite a large number of adverse events reported by each. As a corollary, following any procedure, there will be a large number of events attributed to the procedure due to proximity in time. Not all actually caused by it.

For instance, the case of a nurse who was about to give a vaccination to a child being held by his mother, when he experienced a seizure. A few seconds later and the mother would have sworn the vaccine caused the seizure.

I'm not saying the events which have occurred following the jab were not caused by it, or am I saying they were. All we can say, if we have a control group, is what the relative prevalence was. If not double-blind we may have to write it off as psychosomatic or due to differences in behavior.

Some things stand out so starkly as to be undeniable (70x increase in myocarditis for a short time following vaccination, for a certain group of people.) Others are not so obvious.

 

[Bob B]

My point being that when you have 35,000 people in each of the test group and the vaccine group, there is quite a large number of adverse events reported by each. As a corollary, following any procedure, there will be a large number of events attributed to the procedure due to proximity in time. Not all actually caused by it.

For instance, the case of a nurse who was about to give a vaccination to a child being held by his mother, when he experienced a seizure. A few seconds later and the mother would have sworn the vaccine caused the seizure.

I'm not saying the events which have occurred following the jab were not caused by it, or am I saying they were. All we can say, if we have a control group, is what the relative prevalence was. If not double-blind we may have to write it off as psychosomatic or due to differences in behavior.

Some things stand out so starkly as to be undeniable (70x increase in myocarditis for a short time following vaccination, for a certain group of people.) Others are not so obvious.

That study I posted indicated that both Pfizer and Moderna had significantly higher "serious adverse events of special interest" in the vaccine group as compared to the saline group ... it was 36% higher in Pfizer's study data.
It seems that much more study should be done when the Mfg own studies show this.

It seems like high performing athletes may be affected more than the average person. A LOT of athletes have died of sudden heart attacks lately including the football player on live TV .... and everyone says they never saw anything like it before .... but, of course, it must have just been caused by the tackle he had just made.

The scariest thing to me is that overall excess deaths just keep going up more and more every year in spite of a drop in Covid deaths .... I haven't seen any good explanation for that. Life insurance rates are going to have to go up.

But ... simply on the basis of recent studies that show very low or negative effectiveness, the vaccines need to be put on hold .... more treatment protocols need to hit the mainstream.

 

[bradbill]

It seems like high performing athletes may be affected more than the average person. A LOT of athletes have died of sudden heart attacks lately including the football player on live TV .... and everyone says they never saw anything like it before .... but, of course, it must have just been caused by the tackle he had just made.

WOW! You really fucking went there!

What a fucking moron!

 

[Bob B]

 

[brb58]

Claims baselessly link COVID vaccines to athlete deaths

CLAIM: Two researchers found that more than 1,500 athletes have suffered cardiac arrest since COVID-19 vaccinations began, compared to a previous average of 29 athletes per year, suggesting the vaccines are causing a dramatic rise in such cardiac issues.

apnews.com

 

[bradbill]

View attachment 127991

Bobby Bullshit strikes again!

 

[LeoThomson]

That chart is exactly the opposite of some of the other recent studies .... I didn't look into how the data you posted is collected.
This all should become more clear in the next couple of years and we will find out who has been passing our bad data and who has good data.

If you look at those studies in the WSJ article, you will see that they are supporting the findings of the Cleveland Clinic study ... and other studies I have posted here are beginning to show the reasons for the Cleveland Clinic outcomes.
Did you see the study I posted that analyzed antibodies ... which ones are boosted and which ones suppressed by the boosters? Independent analysts are finally getting funding and are now able to get published.

The US has seen 1.1 million deaths from covid, we have seen that the unvaccinated have a far higher mortality rate and assuming every one has had covid once by now, you guys are looking at an overall mortality rate of around 0.3%, that is including the vaccinated.

You seem intent on arguing that covid is only a small risk, I suggest you might want to reconsider that argument.

Can you explain why excess mortality has increased every year since the vaccine was introduced? With Covid becoming less virulent and a large % of people vaccinated excess mortality should be way down instead of increasing every year like it has.

Sure... Promiscuous people stub their big toe on the nightstands of their neighbors and the resulting infection kills them...

Have you looked at some of the frightening data insurance companies are putting out?

Lol, you are really scared of the vaccine and at the same time quite happy to take an animal de-wormer.

You have invested way too much energy in the conspiracy theory.

 

[LeoThomson]

Some things stand out so starkly as to be undeniable (70x increase in myocarditis for a short time following vaccination, for a certain group of people.) Others are not so obvious.

Myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination is rare and the risk is much smaller than the risks of cardiac injury linked to COVID-19 itself.

Myocarditis: COVID-19 is a much bigger risk to the heart than vaccination

Myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination is rare, and the risk is much smaller than the risks of cardiac injury linked to COVID-19 itself.

theconversation.com

The reason I do not play the lottery is because I know the odds of winning. I look both ways before I cross the street because I know the odds of getting hit by a bus. Most people will agree on looking both ways before crossing, but there is a large percentage who believe they can beat the odds because (the news media focused on the) one person who did win it recently.

 

[Bob B]

The US has seen 1.1 million deaths from covid, we have seen that the unvaccinated have a far higher mortality rate and assuming every one has had covid once by now, you guys are looking at an overall mortality rate of around 0.3%, that is including the vaccinated.

You seem intent on arguing that covid is only a small risk, I suggest you might want to reconsider that argument.


Sure... Promiscuous people stub their big toe on the nightstands of their neighbors and the resulting infection kills them...


Lol, you are really scared of the vaccine and at the same time quite happy to take an animal de-wormer.

You have invested way too much energy in the conspiracy theory.

Your "answers" here prove that you are not interested in a serious discussion .... You are totally willing to ignore studies and opinions from prestigious institutions ... and just quote platitudes ... No matter who does the study or how bad the boosters are proven to be, you will refuse to see what is right in front of your nose .... so, I'm adding you to my list of people I'm ignoring so I won't have to waste time with your posts.

Not doing this to be mean .... just letting you know why I won't be responding to your posts.

 

[brb58]

serious discussion

LOL

 

[Bob B]

The analysis I link to below demonstrates ONE of the ways a study or data analysis can go wrong.

If data isn't analyze by stratifying the data, it may obscure a serious risk ... you can see by the chart below how much difference it makes in analyzing myocarditis data if you fail to stratify based on the group at highest risk .... in this case, males in the 18 to 24 age group.



I can think of other ways to stratify the data that they didn't do .... such as professional male athletes .... but the chart above shows how wrong an analysis can be if they don't get into the weeds.

The question that comes to mind is whether the studies that failed to stratify the data was by accident or to intentionally find a desired outcome.

The full analysis is here ..... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/eci.13947

 

[LeoThomson]

Your "answers" here prove that you are not interested in a serious discussion .... You are totally willing to ignore studies and opinions from prestigious institutions ... and just quote platitudes ... No matter who does the study or how bad the boosters are proven to be, you will refuse to see what is right in front of your nose .... so, I'm adding you to my list of people I'm ignoring so I won't have to waste time with your posts.

Not doing this to be mean .... just letting you know why I won't be responding to your posts.

You have falsely accused people of "not wanting a cure" because your animal dewormer was shown not to work in a double blind trial (which you dismissed) and now you are focusing on the importance of a "control group", which is not only a waste of time because it is something every one agrees on, it is a waste of time because you will dismiss it if it doesn't match your preconceived ideas. I tried to prevent you doing something equally stupid - going down the path of suggesting that 1.1 million dead Americans due to covid and millions more in the rest of the world, is not important.

You cant be taken seriously, because you ONLY accept stories that confirm your conspiracy theory and any evidence that shows you are wrong, (like the study that shows ivermectin does not work, are dismissed as part of the conspiracy.

Again, I am not trying to convince to you that you are wrong, you have invested too much emotional energy into believing the conspiracy theory to accept it is wasted. It is like Marcus Ross, an American young earth creationist and vertebrate paleontologist who's conflict between his young Earth creationist belief and his doctoral dissertation (which involved animals extinct for millions of years).

I have easier discussions with Catholic priest when I tell them I am an atheist. Priest, "Why don't you believe.", me "No evidence for any of the gods.", priest, "Ok." Unlike pastors, imams etc, they have had training and understand the arguments.

 

[LeoThomson]

The question that comes to mind is whether the studies that failed to stratify the data was by accident or to intentionally find a desired outcome.

A more likely explanation is that you are looking for a conspiracy that isn't there.

In the study you posted, they did not look at people who suffered from myocarditis after getting infected by covid either, which unsurprisingly has a higher incidence rate than people getting vaccinated. (myocarditis can be triggered by a viral infection)

Using your line of thought... "Why did they exclude people who got infected by covid?"

Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based COVID-19 Vaccination in the US From December 2020 to August 2021

This descriptive study compares the effect of mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccination with BNT162b2 (Pfizer-BioNTech) vs mRNA-1273 (Moderna) on the reported cases of myocarditis in the US after each vaccination dose.

jamanetwork.com

 

[klystron]

Lol, you are really scared of the vaccine and at the same time quite happy to take an animal de-wormer.

Like many drugs, Ivermectin has formulations and dose levels for both humans and animals, and is FDA approved for use in humans for a variety of conditions. Penicillin is another - does that make Penicillin a "horse antibiotic"?

If you know this, why do you feel you have to mischaracterize things? It doesn't strengthen your position; it weakens it because it makes you appear uninformed.

Don't take this as support for experimental use of ivermectin to treat COVID. It's not.

 

[bradbill]

Like many drugs, Ivermectin has formulations and dose levels for both humans and animals, and is FDA approved for use in humans for a variety of conditions.

Yes...for treating parasites.