diy solar

diy solar

Does the BMS have to be connected to the inverter?

Thanks for that @the_colorist

I'd gladly connect via canbus but I can't find a BMS that Solis will support.

The closest I can get is that it "should be OK to connect the Daly via canbus. But no guarantees.
 
Parallel cells is easy and works well, with one BMS just treating each cell group as one larger cell. This is what Tesla does with a huge number of small cells.

Running 2 strings has one big advantage. If something does go wrong, there is still one good string that could keep you running at half capacity. The other advantage is being able to use two 100 amp BMS units and getting 175 amp capability. It won't double, no matter how close you think you matched the cables etc.

The disadvantage is trying to keep the two matched. If they have quality BMS's and closely matched cable resistance, they can stay in pretty good balance, but it is possible for them to drift. Paralleling the cells will get you double the current capacity as they are forced to balance the load with the low resistance connection between each cell pair.

My setup is a hybrid, which I know will make some cringe. I have two strings that are 3P each, but then I have the buss bars of the two strings joined by fused #16 wires that then go to the BMS. The resistance is low enough that it will hold the two cell groups in balance to each other with up to 5 amps between the cell groups before it would pop a fuse. The strings are each fused at 125 amps, and then the pair is fused at 200 amps with a Class T fuse at the output of the batter box. My single balancer/BMS is the JK (Heltec) with 2 amp active balancing and 200 amp continuous, 350 amp peak current rating. I dialed it down to 160 amp discharge, and 100 amp charge for the BMS over current cut off. I have pulled some of the fuses and checked the current between the two strings at random times and random cells, and I never see more than a few milliamps balancing between the strings. These cells are far better matched that I ever could have hoped for. This arrangement might not work so well for random commodity cells.

As long as your maximum charge rate is well below what the cells can take, I do not see a need for charge tapering. LG rates my cells to take 1C charge rate. That would be 360 amps. In a worst case setup, my charge rate can't exceed 140 amps (XW-Pro charging limit) but I have it set much lower than that. Typically under 30 amps when the grid is up, and if I was under a grid out situation, and my full solar array was dumping into the batter, it would just hit 80 amps. I tested it to 80 amps and everything works just fine. That is only a 0.22C rate.

I have yet to see a system setup where the BMS is actively commanding the charge current to roll off due to a single cell reaching close to full charge. The only function I see in the Schneider manual is reporting the "State of Charge" via their "Xanbus" to use that value for when it can activate grid support functions or trigger a recharge. I do not see any controls for adjusting the charge current rate, other than to cut off charging if the SOC reaches your desired limit. And it can cut off inverter functions based on SoC levels as well, but again, not with linear current changes, just on or off. For example, it can only sell power to the grid when the SoC is above a target value.

I do see where being able to taper current could help, but I just have not seen anyone do it.
 
Most of the high-end and commercial units do it or have the ability to. REC, Orion, Zeva and complete battery solutions such as Tesvolt, Freedomwon, and I believe BYD, Pylontech, Bluenova (Sony), MG Energy, etc. All the major tier one inverter manufacturers support it. SMA, Studer, Victron etc. Even companies like SOL-ARK/Deye.

No offense to Schneider but they have been a little behind their European counterparts. Most of the US market is IMHO. They have been slow to the game implementing the protocol for this. They can do it now with the gateway and insight products as they now have the protocol implemented for it. There are issues doing it with Xanbus directly..

Here is a note from the REC Manual. There are others that use similar logic:

1616724488920.png

Freedomwon does it best IMHO. They use variable voltage targets based on cell states. Here is a note from Victron:

The Freedom Lite transmits, amongst others, the following messages to the GX-device:

1. Adaptive Maximum Charge Voltage Set-point – the value transmitted varies from 54.8V to 55.8V depending on the state of balancing on the particular Lite. Typically a well-balanced Lite battery will request a maximum charge voltage of between 55.0V and 55.8V. This advanced feature is only available from Freedom Won and allows superior system control and optimal battery management. The GX-device uses this set-point to control the real-time operating or target voltage of the inverter/charger devices and the MPPTs.

2. Charge Current Limit (CCL) – this is the maximum current that the battery will accept at any given time stated in Amps. This is a secondary control feature behind the more effective maximum charge voltage control method. This value reduces as the battery approaches 100% State of Charge (SoC). The GX-device uses this value to ensure that the combined Victron system of inverter/chargers and MPPT’s does not exceed the CCL of the Lite. If the CCL drops to zero, the Victron system within a few seconds will ensure that there is no net current flow into the Lite.


Here is what the standard protocol typically looks like (SMA implementation). Updated CAN messages are sent every 250 ms.

1616724859090.png
 

Attachments

  • 1616724982501.png
    1616724982501.png
    48.3 KB · Views: 9
That is actually pretty cool. I have not seen that shown in any of the manuals I went through. I have the Modbus map for the Schneider XW series inverter/chargers and none of them show those registers. My JK BMS has an RS/485 / CAN port, but I don't have the connector for it or any data about what it can do. With well matched and balanced NMC cells, I am not having any issue, but I can see where this would help with LFP that are not perfectly matched.
 
On the flipside, it is definitely possible to use a BMS without comms to great success. That explanation was just to give a more full overview of the purpose of BMS comms.
Make them 16s2p which is 2 discrette batteries each with their own bms and Bo's yer uncle.

Opposing viewpoints here @the_colorist and @smoothJoey

Any more thoughts guys? I'm resigned to using the Overkill BMS and forgetting about canbus communication as it seems certain that the Solis won't support it from the Daly. And I can't afford the REC.

So the next step is 2 sets of 16s or 1 set of 16 x 2p.
 
Parallel cells is easy and works well, with one BMS just treating each cell group as one larger cell. This is what Tesla does with a huge number of small cells.

Running 2 strings has one big advantage. If something does go wrong, there is still one good string that could keep you running at half capacity. The other advantage is being able to use two 100 amp BMS units and getting 175 amp capability. It won't double, no matter how close you think you matched the cables etc.
If I do connect with 2 strings, does the inverter see them as a single unit? I presume that they are combined at the pack outputs and then connected to the inverter like this?

Screenshot_20210326-140311_Gallery.jpg

Just joined at the yellow circle there?
 
If I do connect with 2 strings, does the inverter see them as a single unit? I presume that they are combined at the pack outputs and then connected to the inverter like this?

View attachment 42634

Just joined at the yellow circle there?
I have already answered this above.
Connect 2 discrete batteries and the inverter/charger to busbars.
This parallels all 3 entities.
That gives you some fault tolerance for the batteries.
 
I have already answered this above.
Connect 2 discrete batteries and the inverter/charger to busbars.
This parallels all 3 entities.
That gives you some fault tolerance for the batteries.
Sorry I missed that.

So when I configure the battery parameters in the hybrid, I just treat it as a whole rather than 2 separate?
 
Lol never mind, just looked at the price of the REC...
What were you quoted? There are majorly inflated prices floating around. I can source directly from REC for anyone.

Not that this matters too much at all but I'm an installer so my viewpoint might be different than most. We design and install regularly, along with maintaining them for the foreseeable future. My point wasn't to contradict, just point out some technical issues you may possibly see in the future. Here is a quote from the manual I linked to above. I recommend reading the entire document.

Difficulties with parallel strings
While it may seem that paralleling multiple strings would increase the overall reliability of a battery pack
design, in reality, the opposite is usually true. Unlike lead-acid cells which are commonly assembled in
parallel strings, lithium cells are very intolerant of over charge and over discharge. Since lithium cells
must be managed on a cell level, parallel lithium strings dramatically increase the complexity and cost
of the battery management and introduce many additional points of failure and failure modes not found
with a single string. A parallel string topology almost always leads to a lower overall usable capacity and
lower maximum power output. A single weak or bad cell can exponentially lower the capacity of the
entire battery pack. A properly engineered system can improve the overall reliability, but only when
additional equipment and significant engineering time is invested. Whenever possible, a single string
set-up should be considered.
 
Sorry I missed that.

So when I configure the battery parameters in the hybrid, I just treat it as a whole rather than 2 separate?
bulk/absorb voltage = 54.4 to 58.4 volts (depending on how well your batteries are balanced should be within the bms protection envelope)
charge current = 100 amps (this is so that even with one battery offline you are still safe
float voltage = 53.6 or lower (float is optional think of this as power assist for the batteries)
charge termination criteria (depends on the inverter/charger)
re-bulk criteria the voltage at which you re-enter the bulk charge phase
low voltage disconnect should be within the bms protection envelope
 
There are majorly inflated prices floating around. I can source directly from REC for anyone.
Can you get me a price for an 8s capable unit?
I already have an Overkill but I wanted a rec(depending on the price)
REC to this day has never gotten back to me, which is also a strike against them.
 
Can you get me a price for an 8s capable unit?
Sure thing.

Are you looking for BMS comms? If so, what system/inverter would you like to pair this with?

Also how large is your bank? If it's quite large, a recommendation would be the REC Active BMS.

Lol never mind, just looked at the price of the REC...
I've never worked with Solis but it's my belief any SMA-compatible BMS should work fine with it. Many of the tier-1/tier-2 manufacturers are using the same protocol. There are actually other SMA-compatible BMS units around at are cheaper than REC. In the event a person buys one and the CAN link doesn't communicate properly, they will work just as well as overkill as an independent BMS.

Zeva is one such that I have tested and we use. Remember the prices are in Australian dollars. Multiply the cost times 0.76 or so to get an estimate for USD.


With the 500A shunt, it's roughly $263.

I recommend the LCD though. $117.

 
@the_colorist I just did some googling, couldn't find a direct price.

Ps folks I'm in Ireland, so € or £ prices will work (I spend both as I'm on the border with the UK).
 
I've never worked with Solis but it's my belief any SMA-compatible BMS should work fine with it. Many of the tier-1/tier-2 manufacturers are using the same protocol. There are actually other SMA-compatible BMS units around at are cheaper than REC. In the event a person buys one and the CAN link doesn't communicate properly, they will work just as well as overkill as an independent BMS.
Thanks for your help. I will have a read of the document you linked.

I'm completely new to this game so I'll take any and all advice and assistance.

If you could recommend a Sa-compatible BMS that will work fine even if the Can link doesn't then that would be ideal.

I should say that if this all goes to plan, I might in a year or 2 double my capacity again. Maybe not, but I might.

I also have plans to double my PV capacity but it all comes down to money lol.
 
Back
Top