EG4 6500 EX Bypass feature

[casey2191]

I have 2 EG4 6500 EX-48 running in split phase. I ran an AC source from the grid for the bypass feature in the inverters. My thought was at night once the batteries get to a certain percentage the inverter would know to swap to the grid via the bypass feature to run my loads. While it seems to do that it's also charging my batteries?
I only want solar to charge my batteries I never want my grid source to charge my batteries, is there a setting I can change to make sure this doesn't keep happening?
My power bill could actually go up due to this.

 

[42OhmsPA]

I have 2 EG4 6500 EX-48 running in split phase. I ran an AC source from the grid for the bypass feature in the inverters. My thought was at night once the batteries get to a certain percentage the inverter would know to swap to the grid via the bypass feature to run my loads. While it seems to do that it's also charging my batteries?
I only want solar to charge my batteries I never want my grid source to charge my batteries, is there a setting I can change to make sure this doesn't keep happening?
My power bill could actually go up due to this.

Setting 16 to OSO could also reduce setting 11.

 

[Adam De Lay]

I have 2 EG4 6500 EX-48 running in split phase. I ran an AC source from the grid for the bypass feature in the inverters. My thought was at night once the batteries get to a certain percentage the inverter would know to swap to the grid via the bypass feature to run my loads.

That’s how I ran mine.

Setting 16 to OSO could also reduce setting 11.

Yeah but setting 11 doesn’t apply if he’s got setting 16 to OSO.

 

[42OhmsPA]

Yeah but setting 11 doesn’t apply if he’s got setting 16 to OSO.

Good point.

Don't forget you changed the settings when you decide to charge from grid / generator and can't figure out why you can't...

 

[Adam De Lay]

Don't forget you changed the settings when you decide to charge from grid / generator and can't figure out why you can't...

That, and the fact that you have to be in either USB mode or SUB mode with no PV in order to charge from grid/generator.

 

[casey2191]

That, and the fact that you have to be in either USB mode or SUB mode with no PV in order to charge from grid/generator.

Thanks for the help.
So how will it work does it swap to bypass mode when the batteries get to a certain percentage?
What happens if the EG4 lifepo4 batteries go completely dead?
I'm trying to see if I need to tweak my set up before I create problems

 

[Texican]

Solar Assistant makes this all easy and it well worth the money

 

[Adam De Lay]

Thanks for the help.
So how will it work does it swap to bypass mode when the batteries get to a certain percentage?
What happens if the EG4 lifepo4 batteries go completely dead?
I'm trying to see if I need to tweak my set up before I create problems

So since you have EG4 batteries, I'm assuming option 5 is set to EG4 and you have battery communication set up between your inverters and batteries? If so, you'll use options 12 and 13 to set your state of charge values for when the inverters should switch over to grid power and then back to battery power.

If you're not using EG4 comms, then you'll still use option 12 and 13 but you would be setting a specific battery voltage in order to perform the switch.

As @Texican said, Solar Assistant is well worth the investment. I actually used it to perform the switching between battery and grid because I didn't have EG4 batteries.

As far as what happens when the batteries go dead, I believe it's "supposed" to switch over to grid power, but I never let my batteries get that low in order to find out.

 

[casey2191]

So since you have EG4 batteries, I'm assuming option 5 is set to EG4 and you have battery communication set up between your inverters and batteries? If so, you'll use options 12 and 13 to set your state of charge values for when the inverters should switch over to grid power and then back to battery power.

If you're not using EG4 comms, then you'll still use option 12 and 13 but you would be setting a specific battery voltage in order to perform the switch.

As @Texican said, Solar Assistant is well worth the investment. I actually used it to perform the switching between battery and grid because I didn't have EG4 batteries.

As far as what happens when the batteries go dead, I believe it's "supposed" to switch over to grid power, but I never let my batteries get that low in order to find out.

So I changed the settings and it did go to grid bypass mode.
Now my problem is when on grid bypass mode the inverters themselves draw around 3.5 amps per inverter. To me that's a little high considering what signature solar told me before I bought them that it was a straight bypass feature and there were no losses.
Do you have a suggestion? I either run the loads off of it so light that I never notice a difference on my bill or I run them heavy and then have to pay it back all night in 'bypass mode'.
I'm considering only allowing my water heater to run during daylight hours but I don't have a cost effective way of doing that off hand.
Thanks for the help I'm just trying to learn.

 

[Adam De Lay]

So I changed the settings and it did go to grid bypass mode.
Now my problem is when on grid bypass mode the inverters themselves draw around 3.5 amps per inverter. To me that's a little high considering what signature solar told me before I bought them that it was a straight bypass feature and there were no losses.
Do you have a suggestion? I either run the loads off of it so light that I never notice a difference on my bill or I run them heavy and then have to pay it back all night in 'bypass mode'.
I'm considering only allowing my water heater to run during daylight hours but I don't have a cost effective way of doing that off hand.
Thanks for the help I'm just trying to learn.

So did you switch option 16 to OSO?

Is the 3.5A including the load? How is it being measured? You’re going to have a straight bypass but the grid is also going to pick up part of the inverter idle consumption. There will always be a draw coming from the batteries though, even when in grid mode. Might be up to 30W per inverter from what I’ve seen. It’s odd, but it fluctuates.

I had to start thinking of it like this. Any chance you get to use solar to power a load, that’s power you’re not having to draw from the grid, so it’s a savings, even if it’s a small load or a short period of time. When you have to switch back to the grid because of low batteries, you would have to use the grid to power those loads normally. I live in MI. There’s so little sun right now (and I don’t have enough PV) that I’m not making much power during the days. I might only have a few hours of battery runtime, then it all switches back to the grid, but those few hours I’m not having to pay grid costs for. Does that make sense?

There are programmable “switches” for lack of a better term that can be used for electric water heaters. Possibly something like this: https://a.co/d/3zGpGLg I’ve used a handful of these for parking lot light timers, but something like this could be used to schedule your water heater.

No worries. We’re all still learning something…and we all need help sometimes…

 

[casey2191]

So did you switch option 16 to OSO?

Is the 3.5A including the load? How is it being measured? You’re going to have a straight bypass but the grid is also going to pick up part of the inverter idle consumption. There will always be a draw coming from the batteries though, even when in grid mode. Might be up to 30W per inverter from what I’ve seen. It’s odd, but it fluctuates.

I had to start thinking of it like this. Any chance you get to use solar to power a load, that’s power you’re not having to draw from the grid, so it’s a savings, even if it’s a small load or a short period of time. When you have to switch back to the grid because of low batteries, you would have to use the grid to power those loads normally. I live in MI. There’s so little sun right now (and I don’t have enough PV) that I’m not making much power during the days. I might only have a few hours of battery runtime, then it all switches back to the grid, but those few hours I’m not having to pay grid costs for. Does that make sense?

There are programmable “switches” for lack of a better term that can be used for electric water heaters. Possibly something like this: https://a.co/d/3zGpGLg I’ve used a handful of these for parking lot light timers, but something like this could be used to schedule your water heater.

No worries. We’re all still learning something…and we all need help sometimes…

Yes I changed option 16 to OSO.
No that is not including any load and I am using a 928a arbiter systems multimeter with a current clamp.
I totally agree with your thought process, my problem is I only have 2 of the EG4 lifepo4 batteries so they are going to get down to the 20 percent state of charge very often. For instance last night it was only a couple hours after dark. So last night if I'm doing the math right I paid 8.4 kwh just due to the losses in the inverters.
I guess I just need to either remove circuits from my sub panel and back to my grid panel (I have a sub panel that has all my solar circuits in it) to keep them batteries from going dead too fast or buy more batteries.
You and @Texican mentioned the solar assistant and I'm open to buying it but can one of you elaborate on how it could help this situation?

 

[Adam De Lay]

Yes I changed option 16 to OSO.
No that is not including any load and I am using a 928a arbiter systems multimeter with a current clamp.

I totally agree with your thought process, my problem is I only have 2 of the EG4 lifepo4 batteries so they are going to get down to the 20 percent state of charge very often. For instance last night it was only a couple hours after dark. So last night if I'm doing the math right I paid 8.4 kwh just due to the losses in the inverters.I guess I just need to either remove circuits from my sub panel and back to my grid panel (I have a sub panel that has all my solar circuits in it) to keep them batteries from going dead too fast or buy more batteries.

Yeah that doesn't seem right. Not quite sure what's going on there.

Another option you might have is to use a chargeverter in place of the AC IN on the inverters. I always considered doing this once the chargeverter came out to get around all the little "issues" of the 6500s with AC IN. You would end up disconnecting the AC IN from the inverters and wire up a 240v outlet from your grid panel that your chargeverter would plug into. Then set the chargeverter voltage down to something close to 20% SOC (I know there's not a 1 to 1 match for voltage and SOC, just something close). Then whenever your voltage dropped, the chargeverter would start charging your batteries to maintain the battery level till solar came out the next day. If I recall, I believe @timselectric has done something like this with his growatts.

I would recommend looking into more batteries though when you can.

You and @Texican mentioned the solar assistant and I'm open to buying it but can one of you elaborate on how it could help this situation?

SA helps you monitor your setup in realtime and it also keeps records for you of what the inverter is doing at any given time. It works much better than WatchPower.

Here's a playlist of some things Solar Assistant can do: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT1O-X67-vpC2k5B6eTLNptMUj5ALLQBD

 

[fmeili1]

Yes I changed option 16 to OSO.
No that is not including any load and I am using a 928a arbiter systems multimeter with a current clamp.
I totally agree with your thought process, my problem is I only have 2 of the EG4 lifepo4 batteries so they are going to get down to the 20 percent state of charge very often. For instance last night it was only a couple hours after dark. So last night if I'm doing the math right I paid 8.4 kwh just due to the losses in the inverters.
I guess I just need to either remove circuits from my sub panel and back to my grid panel (I have a sub panel that has all my solar circuits in it) to keep them batteries from going dead too fast or buy more batteries.
You and @Texican mentioned the solar assistant and I'm open to buying it but can one of you elaborate on how it could help this situation?

To overcome this problem, I've installed a contactor in the AC-in line and only switch it on if the battery voltage drops below 50.6V (about 8% SOC while discharging at a rate between 0.01C-0.1C). The inverters program 12 is set to 50V (about 5% SOC when energy usage is relatively low at night) and program 13 is set to 53V (about 18% if charging slowly with program 11 set to 2A which is the lowest possible value to minimize the grid charging). The inverters are running in SBU mode. If the inverter switches back to "Solar/Battery" mode (because setting in program 13 reached), I disconnect the AC-in contactor.

SolarAssistant provides me the battery voltage seen by the inverters to be able to switch on the AC-in contactor before the voltage drops below the trigger voltage set in program 12. A short rule in the smart home system (SolarAssistant sends MQTT messages to process them in the smart home system) switches on a Shelly WiFi relay which drives the AC-in contactor. Also SolarAssistant provides inverter mode changes and with this information I can disconnect the AC-in contactor after voltage in program 13 triggered.

With this setup I was able to minimize the grid usage while not loosing the program 12 & 13 features. Because I have large battery capacity and a lot of sun, this grid usage may only be used on 3-7 days per year. Because I'm running six EG4-6500EX in parallel and they would consume permanent about 300W from the grid (about half of their total idle consumption) if they are just connected to the grid, it was a must have for me to disable the AC-in from the grid if not required!

 

[jfharper]

To overcome this problem, I've installed a contactor in the AC-in line and only switch it on if the battery voltage drops below 50.6V (about 8% SOC while discharging at a rate between 0.01C-0.1C). The inverters program 12 is set to 50V (about 5% SOC when energy usage is relatively low at night) and program 13 is set to 53V (about 18% if charging slowly with program 11 set to 2A which is the lowest possible value to minimize the grid charging). The inverters are running in SBU mode. If the inverter switches back to "Solar/Battery" mode (because setting in program 13 reached), I disconnect the AC-in contactor.

SolarAssistant provides me the battery voltage seen by the inverters to be able to switch on the AC-in contactor before the voltage drops below the trigger voltage set in program 12. A short rule in the smart home system (SolarAssistant sends MQTT messages to process them in the smart home system) switches on a Shelly WiFi relay which drives the AC-in contactor. Also SolarAssistant provides inverter mode changes and with this information I can disconnect the AC-in contactor after voltage in program 13 triggered.

With this setup I was able to minimize the grid usage while not loosing the program 12 & 13 features. Because I have large battery capacity and a lot of sun, this grid usage may only be used on 3-7 days per year. Because I'm running six EG4-6500EX in parallel and they would consume permanent about 300W from the grid (about half of their total idle consumption) if they are just connected to the grid, it was a must have for me to disable the AC-in from the grid if not required!

I am looking for a solution to this as well. These inverters want to pull 84w each from AC-in when connected. I turned off the breaker to force them to use solar or battery for this instead. But that means I have to manually turn the grid back on if cloudy days deplete the system.

 

[fmeili1]

I am looking for a solution to this as well. These inverters want to pull 84w each from AC-in when connected. I turned off the breaker to force them to use solar or battery for this instead. But that means I have to manually turn the grid back on if cloudy days deplete the system.

In my opinion, a system must be able to run fully automatically. If the reliability of a solar system depends on the knowledge of only one knowledgeable person, that is problematic to say the least.

In my opinion, coupling a SmartHome system with a solar system is the ideal combination to get the most out of a solar system. Automatically controlling an AC-in contactor to minimize network usage is just one of many other options. For example, you can use a SmartHome rule to switch off or reduce various consumers, e.g. (heat pump temperature, etc.), if it is foreseeable that the battery capacity will not last until the next day. Many scenarios are possible here.

I bet that there is still a lot of unused potential here to be able to optimally control a solar system.

 

[vietxtlife]

To overcome this problem, I've installed a contactor in the AC-in line and only switch it on if the battery voltage drops below 50.6V (about 8% SOC while discharging at a rate between 0.01C-0.1C). The inverters program 12 is set to 50V (about 5% SOC when energy usage is relatively low at night) and program 13 is set to 53V (about 18% if charging slowly with program 11 set to 2A which is the lowest possible value to minimize the grid charging). The inverters are running in SBU mode. If the inverter switches back to "Solar/Battery" mode (because setting in program 13 reached), I disconnect the AC-in contactor.

SolarAssistant provides me the battery voltage seen by the inverters to be able to switch on the AC-in contactor before the voltage drops below the trigger voltage set in program 12. A short rule in the smart home system (SolarAssistant sends MQTT messages to process them in the smart home system) switches on a Shelly WiFi relay which drives the AC-in contactor. Also SolarAssistant provides inverter mode changes and with this information I can disconnect the AC-in contactor after voltage in program 13 triggered.

With this setup I was able to minimize the grid usage while not loosing the program 12 & 13 features. Because I have large battery capacity and a lot of sun, this grid usage may only be used on 3-7 days per year. Because I'm running six EG4-6500EX in parallel and they would consume permanent about 300W from the grid (about half of their total idle consumption) if they are just connected to the grid, it was a must have for me to disable the AC-in from the grid if not required!

Which contactor do you use, could you share a link

 

[fmeili1]

Which contactor do you use, could you share a link

Because I'm using six EG4-6500EX in split phase, I need two 3-pol-contactors (3 contacts for the 3 inverters running in 2P1 and 3 contacts for the other 3 inverters for 2P2).

Here is the link to the contactors.

The following picture shows the case which I'm using for these contactors:

 

[fmeili1]

Here are some more findings about the smart home rule about when the AC-in contactors should be closed:

I found out that forever reason, in case if the inverters have less than 100-150W load each, at the moment when the AC-in contactors get activated to connect them to the grid, sometimes (about 2 out of 10 times) some but not all go in Fault 60 status (grid feedback protection). Because of that, I've changed the smart home rule a bit to not only check the SOC (or voltage) of the batteries to activate the AC-in contactors, I also check the current load of the AIO's. In case the load is less than 150W for each AIO, I activate a large 240V load, wait about 10 seconds to balance the load between all the AIO's, switch the AC-in contactors to ON, wait again some seconds and deactivate the large load. This solved the sporadic problem with the F60 error! In my case the "large 240V load" is a pump which I can remote control anyway.

It looks like the design of these Voltronic, Axpert Max (MKS2-6500) based AIO's are in general able to feed energy back to the grid - but in most clones this feature is removed in the firmware (like in the EG4-6500EX - I know at least one of these clones which has the grid-interactive feature available for configuration, it's called Phocos AnyGrid model PSW-H-6.5KW-120/48V). I don't really know, why this F60 only happen if the inverters have low load at the moment the grid (or a generator) will be connected. If your connect them to the grid while having idle load, the problem occur every 2nd try, so it depends really on the load! After changing this, I've never seen this problem again (about 20 test cycles so far).

 

[vietxtlife]

Because I'm using six EG4-6500EX in split phase, I need two 3-pol-contactors (3 contacts for the 3 inverters running in 2P1 and 3 contacts for the other 3 inverters for 2P2).

Here is the link to the contactors.

The following picture shows the case which I'm using for these contactors:
View attachment 191268

thank you

 

[vietxtlife]

Because I'm using six EG4-6500EX in split phase, I need two 3-pol-contactors (3 contacts for the 3 inverters running in 2P1 and 3 contacts for the other 3 inverters for 2P2).

Here is the link to the contactors.

The following picture shows the case which I'm using for these contactors:
View attachment 191268

how do you integrate the contactor with home assistant? thanks