EG4 6500 EX Under an Oscilloscope

[robby]

If people want to run inductive loads, I tell them to buy a transformer based inverter like victron or sigineer. For most people HF works great. Especially if you have an inverter based heat pump or resistive loads.

For most people that is going to be hard to do.
Even if a person is not handy with tools they are eventually going to have repairmen come over and the repairmen are going to want to plug in Saws, Drills and other motorized devices.

 

[SparkyJJO]

For most people that is going to be hard to do.
Even if a person is not handy with tools they are eventually going to have repairmen come over and the repairmen are going to want to plug in Saws, Drills and other motorized devices.

Well in those limited instances, they'll just have to put up with some noise on the lines for a short time.

 

[rodrick]

For most people that is going to be hard to do.
Even if a person is not handy with tools they are eventually going to have repairmen come over and the repairmen are going to want to plug in Saws, Drills and other motorized devices.

With the lines of new battery powered tools who plugs things in I’ve gotten to the point of despising air hoses and extension cords

 

[Will Prowse]

For most people that is going to be hard to do.
Even if a person is not handy with tools they are eventually going to have repairmen come over and the repairmen are going to want to plug in Saws, Drills and other motorized devices.

Absolutely agree, and that's why I tell everyone (just did yesterday), these people need a LF inverter. I have mentioned that at least 20 times in the videos too. If the inverter is sized properly, an HF inverter can handle it just fine.

I don't know how many times I can repeat myself. I'm like a broken record. I say the same thing over and over and over.

 

[robby]

Absolutely agree, and that's why I tell everyone (just did yesterday), these people need a LF inverter. I have mentioned that at least 20 times in the videos too. If the inverter is sized properly, an HF inverter can handle it just fine.

I don't know how many times I can repeat myself. I'm like a broken record. I say the same thing over and over and over.

I think that the people who do Wood work etc for a Hobby or out of necessity need an LF Inverter but I don't see why someone who will rarely be using these tools needs one. I just think they need an HF inverter that can Handle reasonable sized power tools. the kind of tools that create a tolerable level of distortion that most HF Inverters can handle.
Then you can have a real test knowing that Model X and Z can handle it, so lets see if the newly released HF inverter can also handle it.

 

[Adam De Lay]

I think that the people who do Wood work etc for a Hobby or out of necessity need an LF Inverter but I don't see why someone who will rarely be using these tools needs one. I just think they need an HF inverter that can Handle reasonable sized power tools. the kind of tools that create a tolerable level of distortion that most HF Inverters can handle.
Then you can have a real test knowing that Model X and Z can handle it, so lets see if the newly released HF inverter can also handle it.

I guess it would really depend on what you're trying to run (and how many different pieces of equipment you're trying to run at the same time). I ran a test to see if the 6500 would run my old Shopsmith and it ran it with no issues. Might have been a flicker when it first turned on, but big deal. Startup current was over 50a.

 

[Will Prowse]

If people complained of equipment failure from dirty sinewave on HF inverters here on the forum, I would test every single one. Tag my username on those threads if you see them.

I remember testing every inverter I had in the shop with my scope under load, and there was some distortion but nothing bad. Sometimes the distortion is less than the grid. So I think it's totally fine.

If someone can prove me wrong with evidence of equipment failure let me know.

 

[Will Prowse]

And that was with my cheap fridge compressor and power tools. This was done when I was first building my big shop. Once I saw the results on my scope, I stopped testing for it.

 

[Will Prowse]

I did buy a more expensive scope and was ready to make some videos, but it's a pretty big waste of everyone's time.

What I would do is tell them to use an LF inverter anyways. Like I've done multiple times in multiple videos. I don't know how many times I can repeat myself but if you have power tools use an LF inverter.

 

[Don B. Cilly]

Hook a big circular saw to it and the fun will begin ?

Well, that is exactly what I did when I tested the inrush on mine and the results weren't all that bad.
-

 

[Delmar]

As a learning tool my first “inverter” was a repurposed APC 3000XL. Simply because I trusted the clean waveform and the ability to start motors (fridge, garbage disposal, garage door opener, power tools).

To supplement I purchased a 2500W Reliable WZRELB which seems to be the popular choice for cheap Chinese PSW inverters. Could someone test the waveform on their scope? Hint…would make a good comparison video.

 

[ChrisG]

I think that the people who do Wood work etc for a Hobby or out of necessity need an LF Inverter but I don't see why someone who will rarely be using these tools needs one. I just think they need an HF inverter that can Handle reasonable sized power tools. the kind of tools that create a tolerable level of distortion that most HF Inverters can handle.
Then you can have a real test knowing that Model X and Z can handle it, so lets see if the newly released HF inverter can also handle it.

Or if you have a well pump which needs to pressurize a 50 to 60 psi tank, even something with low surge like a Grundfos, just get a LF Victron/Samlex/Schneider/etc. These all have lower idle consumption than HF inverters, even after adding SCC's.

 

[robby]

If people complained of equipment failure from dirty sinewave on HF inverters here on the forum, I would test every single one. Tag my username on those threads if you see them.

I remember testing every inverter I had in the shop with my scope under load, and there was some distortion but nothing bad. Sometimes the distortion is less than the grid. So I think it's totally fine.

If someone can prove me wrong with evidence of equipment failure let me know.

Did you test a SunGold Power 6548? That is the Inverter that is showing massive distortion in the first post of this thread.
BTW are you capturing the waveform in memory and inspect what happens on load startup? Hence the light blinking and other issues.

 

[Will Prowse]

Did you test a SunGold Power 6548? That is the Inverter that is showing massive distortion in the first post of this thread.
BTW are you capturing the waveform in memory and inspect what happens on load startup? Hence the light blinking and other issues.

Yes you have to capture that moment and find it. I bought a 4 channel siglent that did everything for this. Before I setup my video studio, I was testing output of every unit I had at that time. Again, use an LF inverter. I am saying this now and for years now. If you have inductive loads, specifically multiple power tools turning on and off repeatedly, use LF.

I can show the same results over and over again and it's not going to change anything. You need to use the proper equipment for the job.

 

[Will Prowse]

And no that inverter was not in existence back then. But I would say the same advice that I said years ago and that I'm saying now. Use an LF inverter instead.

There is no mysteriousness surrounding this phenomenon. If you put in inductive load on an undersized HF inverter, It's going to act this way.

 

[Will Prowse]

If you have a properly sized inverter you will have zero issues. Each one has a surge capacity rating. Calculate your needs and choose what's best for the application.

 

[robby]

If you have a properly sized inverter you will have zero issues. Each one has a surge capacity rating. Calculate your needs and choose what's best for the application.

I agree with you on the statement that if you have a lot of inductive loads use a LF inverter.
What I am trying to establish is a data set for how much power distortion the various HF inverters can handle.
Most LF inverters are heavy beasts that do not offer to many features. Most people are going to buy HF Inverters so we need to know which one's will flicker like Growatts and which ones wont.

I also think your making a mistake in thinking that most people will not care about this kind of information and just go either LF or HF.
Most of the people who will try to DIY a big Solar installation are in that rare 1% of people who have some electrical knowledge. Others are reading up and learning.
THD and other forms of distortion may not be sexy to some but when they are laid out side by side using various models it gives a buyer a good idea of what he will be getting in a HF Inverter. They are not all created equally!

 

[Will Prowse]

I agree with you on the statement that if you have a lot of inductive loads use a LF inverter.
What I am trying to establish is a data set for how much power distortion the various HF inverters can handle.
Most LF inverters are heavy beasts that do not offer to many features. Most people are going to buy HF Inverters so we need to know which one's will flicker like Growatts and which ones wont.

I also think your making a mistake in thinking that most people will not care about this kind of information and just go either LF or HF.
Most of the people who will try to DIY a big Solar installation are in that rare 1% of people who have some electrical knowledge. Others are reading up and learning.
THD and other forms of distortion may not be sexy to some but when they are laid out side by side using various models it gives a buyer a good idea of what he will be getting in a HF Inverter. They are not all created equally!

Yes very true!

I am just waiting till we see equipment failure of any kind. So far, the HF inverters work incredibly well.

 

[42OhmsPA]

This is the waveform from 1 inverter of 2 in split phase configuration running a 11,000 Watt load consisting of two heat pumps and Tesla charger.

View attachment 139016
View attachment 139017

Which model are you using and do you have an affiliate link?
I've wanted to pick one up for to long now.

This one looks different.
Tablet Oscilloscope,Digital Touch Screen Storage Oscilloscope Kit,with 2 Channel 100Mhz Bandwidth 7 inch Screen,Multi Functional Ultra Thin Portable USB Oscilloscope https://a.co/d/fZKJ7mo

 

[Will Prowse]

Which model are you using and do you have an affiliate link?
I've wanted to pick one up for to long now.

This one looks different.
Tablet Oscilloscope,Digital Touch Screen Storage Oscilloscope Kit,with 2 Channel 100Mhz Bandwidth 7 inch Screen,Multi Functional Ultra Thin Portable USB Oscilloscope https://a.co/d/fZKJ7mo

Almost same as mine: Tablet Oscilloscope,with 2 Channel 100MHz Bandwidth 1GSa/s Sampling Rate Oscilloscope,Multifunction Oscilloscope,Ultra Thin Portable USB Oscilloscope https://a.co/d/fK6RTyb

It's much more easier to move around shop than a siglent. And I can't post affiliate links here but I appreciate it!

 

[Samsonite801]

Almost same as mine: Tablet Oscilloscope,with 2 Channel 100MHz Bandwidth 1GSa/s Sampling Rate Oscilloscope,Multifunction Oscilloscope,Ultra Thin Portable USB Oscilloscope https://a.co/d/fK6RTyb

It's much more easier to move around shop than a siglent. And I can't post affiliate links here but I appreciate it!

I recently bought a Siglent SDS1204X-E 4-ch (since I've been advancing my electronics repair skills lately, and also doing a lot of RPi/Arduino stuff these days). 4-channel offers ability to analyze 3-phase sine waves too...

One thing I especially like about the Siglent, is I bought the WiFi module option for it so it connects wirelessly to the home LAN network (it also has an RJ45 Ethernet if you don't need WiFi option), and Siglents run a built-in web server, so you can leave the scope out by the device/circuit you want to look at, but you can log in with a simple web browser on the couch (or anywhere you can access the IP address), and watch the sine waves from the UI remotely (in realtime FPS).

That was what sealed the deal on the Siglent for me. The other option I had been looking at was a GW Instek with many similar great features, but no web server option...

I honestly think the Siglent moves around the shop quite well, just need an extension cord for power is all since networking is WiFi.

I do plan to check out my LV6548s here soon when I get a chance.

 

[Zwy]

EG4 6.5K Ocilioscope readings

Sheet1 EG4 6.5 K Regol Sine Wave Graph Firmware Ver. (61.10) 79.61 with 2,460 watt load ,LED & Heater BATTERY Battery and PV Battery, PV, & AC Battery and Grid

docs.google.com

this is the new model with all firmware updated

You need to test with a scope under inductive load instead of a resistive load as shown in the waveform you posted.

I shall be anticipating it posted here.

 

[Zwy]

Absolutely agree, and that's why I tell everyone (just did yesterday), these people need a LF inverter. I have mentioned that at least 20 times in the videos too. If the inverter is sized properly, an HF inverter can handle it just fine.

I don't know how many times I can repeat myself. I'm like a broken record. I say the same thing over and over and over.

I have found the EG4 6500EX when running well under the rated capacity with a small inductive load such as a freezer, the inverter can not hold output voltage steady, thus leading to the flickering lights problem. Output voltage will swing from 111V to 128V.

The big question is the inverter faulty, or can it be fixed with firmware or are you saying that any HF inverter can't run a small inductive load? I don't believe the latter to be true, I don't see the problem running a 240V well pump for example that is a large inductive load.

I went back and looked at @SignatureSolarJames waveform and how it was only a led light and resistive load. Is that a true representation of household usage? Hardly, there are many inductive loads from freezers, refrigerators, blow dryers, well pumps, heat pumps, etc. Why would a company only post up a waveform with a resistive load instead of an inductive load?

The light flicker problem is inverter output voltage related. Either defective hardware or firmware. If the LV6548 does not suffer from this problem, the EG4 6500EX should not also unless to get the price down, certain elements were substituted. Or it has to do with the increase in PV voltage limit, if so the LV6548V should have light flicker. Time will certainly tell.

 

[PreppenWolf]

I have found the EG4 6500EX when running well under the rated capacity with a small inductive load such as a freezer, the inverter can not hold output voltage steady, thus leading to the flickering lights problem. Output voltage will swing from 111V to 128V.

The big question is the inverter faulty, or can it be fixed with firmware or are you saying that any HF inverter can't run a small inductive load? I don't believe the latter to be true, I don't see the problem running a 240V well pump for example that is a large inductive load.

I went back and looked at @SignatureSolarJames waveform and how it was only a led light and resistive load. Is that a true representation of household usage? Hardly, there are many inductive loads from freezers, refrigerators, blow dryers, well pumps, heat pumps, etc. Why would a company only post up a waveform with a resistive load instead of an inductive load?

The light flicker problem is inverter output voltage related. Either defective hardware or firmware. If the LV6548 does not suffer from this problem, the EG4 6500EX should not also unless to get the price down, certain elements were substituted. Or it has to do with the increase in PV voltage limit, if so the LV6548V should have light flicker. Time will certainly tell.

Edited. I see you were the sub panel person. If you unplug one item at a time on the sub panel, what makes the flicker stop?

 

[Zwy]

Edited. I see you were the sub panel person. If you unplug one item at a time on the sub panel, what makes the flicker stop?

I thought it was on the subpanel located upstairs but in the process of replacing that panel, the disco flicker was present with that panel completely disconnected. So it was not that panel.

I thought before it was the breaker with a freezer in the circuit and confirmed it yesterday. Inductive load. My basement LED lights are on the inverter leg and the Bee Gees started playing in the lights. Bad too, but were in time. I was in the process of finishing wiring to the subpanel on second story so again, the subpanel circuits weren't even connected. Glancing at inverter output voltage and it was the swing from 111V to 128V again.

I have either 2 defective inverters that can't hold output voltage with an inductive load or firmware that doesn't work.