EG4 6500EX Transfer Time

[robby]

No not true, you have full auto ups by routing the grid through the input breaker panel mentioned earlier.

It's not a UPS if the transfer time is greater than 5ms. Some might even stretch it to 10ms.
The 20ms I see qouted with the 6500ex is most certainly going to cause everything in your house to Wink out and either shutoff or reset.

 

[PeSCaLo]

It's not a UPS if the transfer time is greater than 5ms. Some might even stretch it to 10ms.
The 20ms I see qouted with the 6500ex is most certainly going to cause everything in your house to Wink out and either shutoff or reset.

Thanks for the feedback.
As a separate topic, I’ve been wondering exactly this . Do you have literature to back this up?

 

[robby]

Thanks for the feedback.
As a separate topic, I’ve been wondering exactly this . Do you have literature to back this up?

Just search for UPS transfer times on google. They have numerous articles that list what are acceptable transfer times.
Here is one: UPS Transfer Time Importance

 

[BraydenFromEG4]

It's not a UPS if the transfer time is greater than 5ms. Some might even stretch it to 10ms.
The 20ms I see qouted with the 6500ex is most certainly going to cause everything in your house to Wink out and either shutoff or reset.

The 20ms transfer time is the typical (could be lower) time in appliance mode on the 6500EX.
There is a typical 10ms transfer time when the inverter's setting 03 is in UPS mode. This is the norm for most systems, as anything requiring a lower transfer time is generally higher grade electronic equipment, such as medical machines or laboratory tools. A UPS system usually falls within a 0~12ms transfer time.

 

[robby]

The 20ms transfer time is the typical (could be lower) time in appliance mode on the 6500EX.
There is a typical 10ms transfer time when the inverter's setting 03 is in UPS mode. This is the norm for most systems, as anything requiring a lower transfer time is generally higher grade electronic equipment, such as medical machines or laboratory tools. A UPS system usually falls within a 0~12ms transfer time.

Incorrect a UPS typical time is under 5ms with 5ms being the max time. Which is the time you need to prevent one full sine wave oscillation from being lost. 10-12ms will glitch and reboot PC's. Why does your system state 20ms and now your going to tell me it's 10ms.

Medical machine use a constant UPS system with zero transfer time. Any home item, A TV, PC, Game Console, Fridge, AC unit is going to glitch out on a 20ms Transfer time.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Just search for UPS transfer times on google. They have numerous articles that list what are acceptable transfer times.
Here is one: UPS Transfer Time Importance

The article you refer to here states:
If there is a mains failure, then a UPS will switch to the battery-derived power supply, ensuring that your systems don’t switch off. The transfer time refers to how long it takes for the UPS to complete the switch to ensure that the supply is not interrupted. It can also refer to the time it takes for the UPS to switch the power back to the mains once the issue has been resolved.

It can fall anywhere between zero and 12 milliseconds. If you want to ensure that there is no delay in transferring the power, then you need to ensure that you invest in a double conversion UPS system. This is the only type of UPS that will have zero seconds of transfer time. An offline UPS will typically take 8 milliseconds to transfer power while a line-interactive system will usually complete the switch in five.


I agree - if you want computer equipment to not stutter ~100% of the time the 5ms is where you want to be.

 

[robby]

I agree - if you want computer equipment to not stutter ~100% of the time the 5ms is where you want to be.

Computer is a very broad term today. Just about everything, including your Fridge or your AC unit has a computer built into it. With even a 10ms time your going to find most things are going to Glitch and I have no idea why the default is 20ms using that mode and 10ms in another mode. I suspect there is some kind of undesirable trade off if the Inverter is switched into the 10ms mode?

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Computer is a very broad term today. Just about everything, including your Fridge or your AC unit has a computer built into it. With even a 10ms time your going to find most things are going to Glitch and I have no idea why the default is 20ms using that mode and 10ms in another mode. I suspect there is some kind of undesirable trade off if the Inverter is switched into the 10ms mode?

Ya, I know the voltage range also changes for input voltage - I wish I could get some more solid answers for you now but give me some time to find out what I can.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Computer is a very broad term today. Just about everything, including your Fridge or your AC unit has a computer built into it. With even a 10ms time your going to find most things are going to Glitch and I have no idea why the default is 20ms using that mode and 10ms in another mode. I suspect there is some kind of undesirable trade off if the Inverter is switched into the 10ms mode?

Challenge:
name a thing that will not work, we will make a video showing the actual results

 

[BraydenFromEG4]

Computer is a very broad term today. Just about everything, including your Fridge or your AC unit has a computer built into it. With even a 10ms time your going to find most things are going to Glitch and I have no idea why the default is 20ms using that mode and 10ms in another mode. I suspect there is some kind of undesirable trade off if the Inverter is switched into the 10ms mode?

I would just like to add that you'll see most quality power supply units follow the Industry Standardized Hold-up Time set by Intel for computer systems. While I'm sure this leniency varies by application, if someone's computer can tolerate the 10ms transfer time then I'm sure their fridge and AC are more robust in their capabilities and should be covered.

 

[robby]

Challenge:
name a thing that will not work, we will make a video showing the actual results

A modern Washing machine? If my GE Circa 2021 Washer and Dryer lose power for a few ms it just turns off. These are digital devices not those old analog mechanical timer type machines.
My OLED TV does the same thing.
My DirecTV DVR's will reboot and I will lose at least 5 minutes of any show that is recording at the time. If I am watching it live I have to wait for the 4-5 minute reboot process to take place.
My Panasonic Inverter ACs also shutdown if there is a power glitch. Non Inverter ones will start back up.
My Infofia PM1608 Hepa Air filter turns off if the power glitches.
MY GE stoves cooking timer resets the time to 12:00 flashing after a few ms of Glitch, losing the cooking time that has already happened.
MY PC's most certainly will turn off or reset depending on what the Bios setting is.
My Panasonic Microwave will stop cooking after the slightest glitch and will show 12:00 on the clock and not start working again until I put in a new timer cooking amount.


I could go on, if you need more.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

A modern Washing machine? If my GE Circa 2021 Washer and Dryer lose power for a few ms it just turns off. These are digital devices not those old analog mechanical timer type machines.
My OLED TV does the same thing.
My DirecTV DVR's will reboot and I will lose at least 5 minutes of any show that is recording at the time. If I am watching it live I have to wait for the 4-5 minute reboot process to take place.
My Panasonic Inverter ACs also shutdown if there is a power glitch. Non Inverter ones will start back up.
My Infofia PM1608 Hepa Air filter turns off if the power glitches.
MY GE stoves cooking timer resets the time to 12:00 flashing after a few ms of Glitch, losing the cooking time that has already happened.
MY PC's most certainly will turn off or reset depending on what the Bios setting is.
My Panasonic Microwave will stop cooking after the slightest glitch and will show 12:00 on the clock and not start working again until I put in a new timer cooking amount.


I could go on, if you need more.

This next week I have a corner of a workshop all to myself. I'll do some extensive testing.

 

[robby]

This next week I have a corner of a workshop all to myself. I'll do some extensive testing.

Go for it, I would still like to know why the default is not 10ms. What is the issue??

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Go for it, I would still like to know why the default is not 10ms. What is the issue??

I'll find out more info.

 

[BraydenFromEG4]

Go for it, I would still like to know why the default is not 10ms. What is the issue??

Since the inverter is designed for off-grid usage, most people won't have utility as a hookup anyways so the AC input's default setting isn't particularly telling. To my understanding, the only difference between Appliance and UPS modes are the transfer times (20ms vs 10ms) and the acceptable low range of AC input voltage (80V vs 90V). This would account for more variation in the sine wave of an AC input such as a generator, which is my guess as to why it is default. Richard will have a better answer for you soon though.

 

[robby]

Since the inverter is designed for off-grid usage, most people won't have utility as a hookup anyways so the AC input's default setting isn't particularly telling. To my understanding, the only difference between Appliance and UPS modes are the transfer times (20ms vs 10ms) and the acceptable low range of AC input voltage (80V vs 90V). This would account for more variation in the sine wave of an AC input such as a generator, which is my guess as to why it is default. Richard will have a better answer for you soon though.

I am not even sure why a transfer time would come into play in an off grid installation. If it is grid tied and you can achive 10ms then there won't be nearly as many problems as if it is 20ms.

 

[Lt.Dan]

I have some experience with the transfer time, granted I have the MPP LV6548's so it might be different, but I dont actually know the differences.

I originally only had 1x LV6548, and it advertised the same 20ms transfer time. I NEVER had any equipment shut off when going back and forth. Never a light flicker, never a computer reboot, no microwave shut downs, no washer/dryer glitches. Nothing. Never noticed anything happened.

But when I got 2x LV6548's, everything changed. Now in the manual it actually states the transfer time is 50ms when in parallel. I'd assume its the same with the EG4 model. I typically had some heavy loads on the 2 of them, averaging 4-5kw continuously. My smart OLED TV never shut off or glitched, neither did the microwave of washer/dryer, the only thing I ever noticed was the air conditioners in my RV, (3x 1500w models) would slow down, and occasionally the breaker would trip, i'm guessing the voltage drop causes a big amperage spike which trips the breaker. Also, my crypto miner would reboot (highly sensitive PSU's). Nothing EVER happened when it was just 1x inverter.

I asked Ian at Watts247, and basically got the typical, "I've never heard of that happening!". His response was to reset all the settings back to default and reconfigure it, which did nothing. Never got it figured out as to why, but thankfully I don't live in the RV full time anymore, so I don't deal with the problems anymore.

@robby if you have appliances shutting down when your equipment says 10ms, I would get it tested, because I don't think its correct. Even with 50ms (probably more? no idea), i still had no problems with most appliances.

 

[robby]

@robby if you have appliances shutting down when your equipment says 10ms, I would get it tested, because I don't think its correct. Even with 50ms (probably more? no idea), i still had no problems with most appliances.

LtDan I have a 4ms Transfer time with the Sol-Ark so I don't have shutdown problems but I can tell you that lights flicker and UPS's start to beep even at 4ms. If you look at half of the Sol-Ark videos that demonstrate a power outage you will see the lights flicker.
10ms will work for some equipment but as I said 20ms will most certainly cause issues. From the little bit I am getting from SS it seems like if you have the Grid connected you need to be in that 20ms setting.

BTW 10ms is an eternity for most electronic devices. That is practically one full cycle of power lost. For devices with a healthy amount of capacitors this is not an issue but for a typical PCB that may have small capacitors under a few amps of load this causes a glitch and reset.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I've moved this part of the original thread to its own topic.

 

[PeSCaLo]

I have been wondering about this Too.

Ive been checking out Xindung UPS which claims 4ms transfer time and true UPS function with AVR. They offer solar controller, and LF Inverter. With 20Kw Ups, The solar controller is 22Kwh, But needs a 192Vdc battery to work. ( No problem for experienced DIY battery Builder)

Since the Ups will connect in between the meter and main breaker panel, its internal transfer switch will act as a gatekeeper and prevent solar to go to the grid. All solar Produced will go to the loads AC, and the difference will come from Grid.
Essentially allowing off grid solar in a grid tied house. Like using a CT limiter, but with a hardwire mechanical switch (inside UPS).

So the Question begs,
For the same Price, Better to go with a :
-Solar Inverter, That can “Also do battery backup” ( 6548 Style)
- UPS Whole House, Low Frequency, That can “Also do Solar” ( Xindun UPS)


@FilterGuy