Eg4 Lifepower4 battery is ticking on start

[mmmnnn]

There were probably a dozen people who reported a similar problem in the thread i started back in december. It's definitely something in the battery.

yes, and i'm afraid the focus of this forum to divert out of that. They are replacing the inverter for him. might take another 2 weeks runaround like they did with you

 

[Koldsimer]

yes, and i'm afraid the focus of this forum to divert out of that. They are replacing the inverter for him. might take another 2 weeks runaround like they did with you

Hopefully he will get a new unit and not an obviously used one that smells like smoke and has buggered screws everywhere.

 

[shopman]

That's a good point but it didn't matter in my case. My Schneider has the ability to shut down all inverter/charging operations while in standby mode. It made no difference when attempting to start my inverter.

One theory that was proposed by @robby was that my schneider 6848 has a very large number of capacitors to charge. Because my inverter had been in use for well over a year, he proposed that the capacitors had aged to some degree and would have been a different value as compared to a new inverter. I'm sure he can explain this in much greater detail but it makes sense. This may be why my inverter in the field performed differently than their inverter on a test bench.

bro, another member on this forum having the same issue with EG4 inverter, it's the battery not the inverter.

Hey bro, notice I said "may be related". Just putting a theory out as to why it may be such a random issue but not discounting the fact that there is an issue within the battery.

 

[mmmnnn]

Hey bro, notice I said "may be related". Just putting a theory out as to why it may be such a random issue but not discounting the fact that there is an issue within the battery.

 

[Shimmy]

There were probably a dozen people who reported a similar problem in the thread i started back in december. It's definitely something in the battery.

Technically it is battery-inverter compatibility.

 

[robby]

Technically it is battery-inverter compatibility.

We don't disagree often but IMHO it's a BMS issue. I think the BMS is probably just a bottom basement Wun Hung-Lo brand BMS that has really poor current handling capabilities and poorly written firmware. At this point in time I have no doubt that Signature Solar must have gotten every possible password to change the settings and if they have not done something yet I don't think they can. My guess is that they will not be buying this battery again when the stocks run out. They are probably looking for a replacement.

I decided to pop by my local dealer on Saturday. I had told you he had bought 40x EG4 batteries and I noticed that he now has these units in stock for budget installs.



I told his sales guy I was not all that impressed. It seems to use a lot larger cells so I can only assume they are older cells.
Also the 20 Amp charge current is non starter for me. BTW don't you love how it says Maximum charging current 100A and then says recommended 20A. Sounds Familiar
There are not many devices that I have ever heard of that can withstand 5 times the recommended current!

BTW A+ points for Honesty. They say 2000 Cycles to 70% life expectancy. This is a wake up call that used LiFePo4 cells may be getting very scarce in China and quality is probably going to drop off further.

 

[Shimmy]

We don't disagree often but IMHO it's a BMS issue. I think the BMS is probably just a bottom basement Wun Hung-Lo brand BMS that has really poor current handling capabilities and poorly written firmware.

I wouldn't say we disagree, just debating cause and effect.

They built (/sourced) the cheapest product on the market, which seems to serve well over 90% of their customers adequately. It has also educated another segment of the market as to the risks associated with these batteries. I will end up paying more for a product I hope to be more reliable and robust... because shipping a unit back would be as expensive as just buying a better one up front.

I do agree that a buyer-beware problem exists here. I am curious what the real differences are with the LL. (I won't take the chance though to find out.)

 

[robby]

I do agree that a buyer-beware problem exists here. I am curious what the real differences are with the LL. (I won't take the chance though to find out.)

Better BMS in the EG4LL but the cells are grade B and not matched well. The passive balancing in the BMS takes hours to balance cells if they drift to far out from one another. I am kind of done with the whole B cell thing. I suspect that when we look back on this in another 2 years there is going to be a much clearer picture of what buying B cells really means. I was satisfied with half the life for half the price but looking at how poorly supply side of things are recovering from Covid and the fact that EV companies are buying up hudreds of thousands of batteries in advance, I am not so sure if in 2-3 years the battery prices will be lower. I suspect they will be much higher and harder to find.

 

[Will Prowse]

Better BMS in the EG4LL but the cells are grade B and not matched well. The passive balancing in the BMS takes hours to balance cells if they drift to far out from one another. I am kind of done with the whole B cell thing. I suspect that when we look back on this in another 2 years there is going to be a much clearer picture of what buying B cells really means. I was satisfied with half the life for half the price but looking at how poorly supply side of things are recovering from Covid and the fact that EV companies are buying up hudreds of thousands of batteries in advance, I am not so sure if in 2-3 years the battery prices will be lower. I suspect they will be much higher and harder to find.

Grade b cells in the eg4LL?? Can you post pictures of these and the barcodes. I have not seen evidence of that before.

 

[Will Prowse]

Better BMS in the EG4LL but the cells are grade B and not matched well. The passive balancing in the BMS takes hours to balance cells if they drift to far out from one another. I am kind of done with the whole B cell thing. I suspect that when we look back on this in another 2 years there is going to be a much clearer picture of what buying B cells really means. I was satisfied with half the life for half the price but looking at how poorly supply side of things are recovering from Covid and the fact that EV companies are buying up hudreds of thousands of batteries in advance, I am not so sure if in 2-3 years the battery prices will be lower. I suspect they will be much higher and harder to find.

Hey Robby can you also include capacity test results with your evidence of grade b cells as well. I'm talking to another manufacturer who knows the company making eg4 packs and they claim to be grade a cells. Would love to see your evidence proving everyone to be false. Post it all here.

 

[Will Prowse]

Earlier today I also contacted SOK and their server rack batteries are having zero issues with pre charge resistor circuit. Not a single issue reported (please post forum thread here if I am wrong). Maybe what people need to do is spend more money on the sok pack instead.

Signature solar does not have documentation for pre charge resistor circuit even after months of selling them. But sok does.

 

[Will Prowse]

I wouldn't say we disagree, just debating cause and effect.

They built (/sourced) the cheapest product on the market, which seems to serve well over 90% of their customers adequately. It has also educated another segment of the market as to the risks associated with these batteries. I will end up paying more for a product I hope to be more reliable and robust... because shipping a unit back would be as expensive as just buying a better one up front.

I do agree that a buyer-beware problem exists here. I am curious what the real differences are with the LL. (I won't take the chance though to find out.)

That's actually completely false. How do you arrive to this conclusion? I talk to the manufacturers and engineers from multiple companies and it's so cheap to upgrade busbars/BMS/cells that most of them have the higher quality selection. I know how cheap the other cells they could use are and their cycle life. And they are not using them. Please post evidence here of parts they use that are not decent quality. because I know for a fact that they have other options and don't mess with them. I've known this for the last four years or so after I learned the supply chain of a cylindrical cell lifepo4 pack. The head engineer actually explained why they didn't use the cheapest cells. It's more of a headache for the company.

 

[Will Prowse]

We don't disagree often but IMHO it's a BMS issue. I think the BMS is probably just a bottom basement Wun Hung-Lo brand BMS that has really poor current handling capabilities and poorly written firmware. At this point in time I have no doubt that Signature Solar must have gotten every possible password to change the settings and if they have not done something yet I don't think they can. My guess is that they will not be buying this battery again when the stocks run out. They are probably looking for a replacement.

I decided to pop by my local dealer on Saturday. I had told you he had bought 40x EG4 batteries and I noticed that he now has these units in stock for budget installs.

View attachment 105190

I told his sales guy I was not all that impressed. It seems to use a lot larger cells so I can only assume they are older cells.
Also the 20 Amp charge current is non starter for me. BTW don't you love how it says Maximum charging current 100A and then says recommended 20A. Sounds Familiar
There are not many devices that I have ever heard of that can withstand 5 times the recommended current!

BTW A+ points for Honesty. They say 2000 Cycles to 70% life expectancy. This is a wake up call that used LiFePo4 cells may be getting very scarce in China and quality is probably going to drop off further.

That picture you posted does not show the internals. Can you open it up so we can all see? Hard for anyone to draw conclusions if we don't see what's inside. I don't like to rush to conclusions without actual evidence.

And what proof do you have that the cells are used?

 

[Kornbread]

That's actually completely false. How do you arrive to this conclusion? I talk to the manufacturers and engineers from multiple companies and it's so cheap to upgrade busbars/BMS/cells that most of them have the higher quality selection. I know how cheap the other cells they could use are and their cycle life. And they are not using them. Please post evidence here of parts they use that are not decent quality. because I know for a fact that they have other options and don't mess with them. I've known this for the last four years or so after I learned the supply chain of a cylindrical cell lifepo4 pack. The head engineer actually explained why they didn't use the cheapest cells. It's more of a headache for the company.

What is false? Companies are in business to make money, and to further that agenda. With all things considered, they are going to use the least expensive components that meet their requirements.

 

[Kornbread]

Hey Robby can you also include capacity test results with your evidence of grade b cells as well. I'm talking to another manufacturer who knows the company making eg4 packs and they claim to be grade a cells. Would love to see your evidence proving everyone to be false. Post it all here.

How do we know the difference between grade A and something else? This was discussed in another thread, someone remember that thread ... was it only discernible by xraying the cell? Also, IIRC, that thread noted that actual grade A cells are almost solely reserved for EVs.

 

[Will Prowse]

How do we know the difference between grade A and something else? This was discussed in another thread, someone remember that thread ... was it only discernible by xraying the cell? Also, IIRC, that thread noted that actual grade A cells are almost solely reserved for EVs.

Mainly from the orders for the cells. They can't advertise the cycle life they do unless they were grade a cells.

And yes some companies sell good cells as grade b cells. It all depends on the company. Some do, some don't. There is not a single answer for labeling them across the industry.

Robby claimed that these are used grade b cells, and going by their size and manufacturer, and the cost of the cell for making the pack and the advertised cycle life and UL listing, that's impossible. So I am waiting patiently for proof of these cells being used grade b cells.

 

[Koldsimer]

Earlier today I also contacted SOK and their server rack batteries are having zero issues with pre charge resistor circuit. Not a single issue reported (please post forum thread here if I am wrong). Maybe what people need to do is spend more money on the sok pack instead.

Signature solar does not have documentation for pre charge resistor circuit even after months of selling them. But sok does.

When i got my SOK from Dexter, he was aware of my existing issues starting my inverter with the eg4 lifepower. He was actually hoping we could reproduce the problem so that he could try different settings to find out what worked. Fortunately/unfortunately the battery started my inverter with no issues and even ran a 5kw load off one battery.

The fact that a vendor like Current Connected is willing to try and pro-actively solve a problem says a lot to me about the quality and integrity of their business.

 

[Will Prowse]

What is false? Companies are in business to make money, and to further that agenda. With all things considered, they are going to use the least expensive components that meet their requirements.

Not if the lowered price does not increase the value of the product. I know this because I've talked to the head engineers of these batteries and it doesn't make sense to leave our features to save $.50. These engineers are not stupid and they find the best value gear or they will die as a company. Capitalism 101 here. Best value wins everytime. Not the "cheapest of the cheap".

 

[Will Prowse]

When i got my SOK from Dexter, he was aware of my existing issues starting my inverter with the eg4 lifepower. He was actually hoping we could reproduce the problem so that he could try different settings to find out what worked. Fortunately/unfortunately the battery started my inverter with no issues and even ran a 5kw load off one battery.

The fact that a vendor like Current Connected is willing to try and pro-actively solve a problem says a lot to me about the quality and integrity of their business.

That's awesome.

 

[Koldsimer]

Mainly from the orders for the cells. They can't advertise the cycle life they do unless they were grade a cells.

And yes some companies sell good cells as grade b cells. It all depends on the company. Some do, some don't. There is not a single answer for labeling them across the industry.

Robby claimed that these are used grade b cells, and going by their size and manufacturer, and the cost of the cell for making the pack and the advertised cycle life and UL listing, that's impossible. So I am waiting patiently for proof of these cells being used grade b cells.

IIRC Signature was asked to produce the certificates from the manufacturer (Ganfeng) that showed the batteries use grade a cells. They were unwilling or unable to produce these documents.

The cells used in their packs certainly don't seem to be well matched in some cases. I have two modules that have a nearly 200mv difference between cells even after multiple hours floating at 57.5v with the batteries in standby.