Eg4 Lifepower4 battery is ticking on start

[Will Prowse]

SG are keeping low profile right now. i've sent them an email on Monday, they forwarded it to techs, and no response. I called them @ 6:40 am PST, their hold time is extensive with an option to call back, it's now past 8 am with no callback.
If i don't hear from them by the end of the day, i'll go thru the Credit card dispute process

Probably better off buying an sok where there are no reported issues like this. Costs more money but the problem will not arise from what I'm seeing.

 

[Will Prowse]

I want to know what the obsession is with watching cell voltages. We are working with lifepo4 and the natural variation with a 16S pack is well known. And voltage is not a indicator of soc with lifepo4. What is the downside here of having such a small imbalance? I understand that with higher c rate packs, such as my lithium polymers pushing 100-150C, the internal resistance needs to be as perfect as possible or one cell will degrade faster. I could usually only get 150-400 cycles till they were toast. But for lifepo4, what's the issue? If you are pulling full capacity, what is the problem?

 

[Koldsimer]

Yes there is natural variation between cells and batching 16 is difficult. Less cells in series the better chance of matching them. What we need to see is your capacity test results because that's all that matters. If you're not pulling full capacity because the cell deviation is bad, and the BMS can't keep up with it's passive dissipatative balancer, then I need to mention it in a video. But I need a .2C rate capacity test with a shunt. So post it here.

To be clear, i am not having capacity issues. Time will tell how the lagging cells behave but i'm not particularly worried at this time. In fact, running the pack down to single digits several times and seeing the soc and cell numbers so close gave some level of confidence in the capacity of my batteries.

 

[mmmnnn]

Probably better off buying an sok where there are no reported issues like this. Costs more money but the problem will not arise from what I'm seeing.

Just DM'd you

 

[mmmnnn]

No, the capacitor charging is not controlled from the inverter, he is just showing that the inverter starts up automatically-- with no user intervention.

even though capacitor charging is briefly ticking, i'm able to get past that and get the inverter up with zero loads

Start it the way he does-- with the inverter breaker closed, just closing the battery breaker and not touching anything else. Wait a minute and start your kettle.

so yesterday i recorded the running amp while flipping switches inside the RV (no kittle, no AC), here's the recorded video, check @ 0:20

You have another potential problem-- your wire gauge looks a little small. What size are they and how long? That could explain why it drops out around 40A (do not use inrush mode when looking at that current).

this is pure 4 awg copper wire from home depot, 5ft, same like the one came with the battery but longer. it's a temporary setup until i order the right size wire but don't think i makes a difference when running an equivalent of 1500W

 

[Shimmy]

even though capacitor charging is briefly ticking, i'm able to get past that and get the inverter up with zero loads

so yesterday i recorded the running amp while flipping switches inside the RV (no kittle, no AC), here's the recorded video, check @ 0:20

Ok, so we have eliminated the pre-charge resistor from the problem. Have you checked the voltage at the inverter terminals? Have you looked at the BMS settings?

I wonder if there is a safe way to hook your kettle directly to the battery to test that way. Is it 220V or 120V?

 

[mmmnnn]

Ok, so we have eliminated the pre-charge resistor from the problem. Have you checked the voltage at the inverter terminals? Have you looked at the BMS settings?

I wonder if there is a safe way to hook your kettle directly to the battery to test that way. Is it 220V or 120V?

haven't eleminated the precharge problem yet, just isolated that problem for now
I haven't checked the voltage at the inverter, but the inverter works flawlesly with the tesla battery module (22volt nominal 5.2kwh) I use it to run the RV Roof AC which has a surge of 3KW (i believe)

so sisgnature solar replied to my support / return email, requesting more info, i pointed them out to few snippets of my posts in the forum. They willl get back to me for further info.

I would hold for now troubleshooting until i see what's next with there support. Thanks for your help anyway

 

[Will Prowse]

haven't eleminated the precharge problem yet, just isolated that problem for now
I haven't checked the voltage at the inverter, but the inverter works flawlesly with the tesla battery module (22volt nominal 5.2kwh) I use it to run the RV Roof AC which has a surge of 3KW (i believe)

so sisgnature solar replied to my support / return email, requesting more info, i pointed them out to few snippets of my posts in the forum. They willl get back to me for further info.

I would hold for now troubleshooting until i see what's next with there support. Thanks for your help anyway

You would never have an issue with pre charge with a tesla module. We all know that. There is no bms on that pack from what I can tell from the videos.

Did you try manually charging the caps up yourself with a resistor?

 

[Will Prowse]

Can someone post a video of these packs being charged manually with a resistor and still giving the fault or error code and shut down?

 

[robby]

I could have sworn you specifically stated that they were used cells. I noticed that multiple posts you made are edited now:
View attachment 105281View attachment 105282

Did you remove the term "used cells" because I remember reading that and instantly wondering where you got that information from. And the cells they use are better than the cheaper cells available. There are cells that get less cycles and those are not being used. I know you can make a battery safe with the cheap cells, I think everyone knows that. And those cells are new. But they and sok and others are using half decent cells.

Trophy battery is using catl and eve cells if you don't want the ones in the other packs.

NO! I don't do that kind of crap I find it to be petty to correct statements after the fact. I edit posts to correct grammar errors.

I logged on here at about 7am and that is when I saw your post about me saying "Used Batteries" did you see even one post that was edited after 7am? Do you see any post that have been edited today?

I don't know who filled your head with this idea that I was claiming they are used batteries. I have always known they were Grade B cells from the moment they published their UL certificate and I was able to access my UL account from my old job and check who made the batteries. I always suspected they are Grade B batteries based on the price and I also think SOK are Grade B batteries but they seem to be a lot better than the ones in the EG4.

I respect the engineers at Fortress power and Sol-Ark and both have told me that you cannot make a 5KWh 48V battery pack for $1700 with Grade A Tier 1 cells. They say it is impossible as the raw cell prices are too high for any company to do it. One of Sol-Arks top people told me there is a reason why all the Teir 1 battery packs cost twice as much money, it is the cost of the Cells and he did say they typically use much better BMS units.

EDIT: BTW you mentioned the USED Battery thing at 12:59am Today. I edited that post at 4:30pm yesterday.

 

[robby]

Why don't we just ask Signature directly? @SignatureSolarJames @RichardFromEG4

Are the cells used on your lifepower and LL model batteries true grade a cells? Can you provide documentation to support this?

How does the pre-charge function work in your batteries? All the details you can provide would be appreciated.

YES!! Why don't they come on the forum with one of their 8 accounts and tell people straight up if they are Grade A cells or Grade B Telecom cells.

 

[Solar Guppy]

even though capacitor charging is briefly ticking, i'm able to get past that and get the inverter up with zero loads

That is good to hear and matches what I wrote earlier. You can't have an inverter powered with ANY loads and use a resistor to supply the power, not enough energy.

 

[Shimmy]

I wonder if the pre-charge contractor is welded closed.

That is good to hear and matches what I wrote earlier. You can't have an inverter powered with ANY loads and use a resistor to supply the power, not enough energy.

 

[robby]

I want to know what the obsession is with watching cell voltages. We are working with lifepo4 and the natural variation with a 16S pack is well known. And voltage is not a indicator of soc with lifepo4. What is the downside here of having such a small imbalance? I understand that with higher c rate packs, such as my lithium polymers pushing 100-150C, the internal resistance needs to be as perfect as possible or one cell will degrade faster. I could usually only get 150-400 cycles till they were toast. But for lifepo4, what's the issue? If you are pulling full capacity, what is the problem?

The obsession is based on watching the issues that occur when the cells are not balanced.
If my EG4LL pack is at 54.5V and I have cells in the Eg4LL that are at 3.67V and some that are 3.30V and a few in the middle at 3.4V what happens is that the Sol-Ark reads 100% SOC but the moment I load up the battery the 3.67V cells drop off real quickly to about 3.45V and the 3.3V ones remain pretty much the same. Within minutes the pack level voltage drops to 53V and my SOC is down to around 75%. Since all my TOU slots are based on SOC values the Inverter will cut out much earlier because I have reached 20% SOC.

In a normal situation where the EG4LL is in parallel with my eFlexs the problem is that the unbalanced EG4 will drop it's voltage level fast and the eFlexs will start trying to charge the EG4LL thereby wasting even more power.

So I end up losing a lot of the expected capacity at night if the EG4LL cells are not balanced. That is why I must always keep the cells in balance.

 

[jberger]

Just to help with the request for photos. . .
I've attached 2 photos from my packs, they are EG4LL 12volt packs from Signature Solar.
A close up of the QR code to show an actual cell, and 2 others just to demonstrate it's really the same pack.
I believe the 24v with no screen and even the 48V use the exact same cells with different connections so the cells should be the same, they are just configured for different pack voltages.

Mine are setup in an RV as (3) 12V packs connected shared to (2) Magnum MS2818 inverters.
The 12V units do not include the precharge resistor so I can't help with that aspect.
But, I HAVE had the BMS go into alarm mode when initially powered up and directly connected to the inverter.

I have not had any issues with nuisance trips of the BMS under regular use.

My fix for alarm on power up is simple, I turn all 3 packs on at the same time, and that gives enough headroom for the inverters to charge up and start working. We've spent about 5-6 weeks on the road since they were installed, and they have worked fine other than the power up alarms.

I settings on the BMS need to be adjusted but no one at Sig Solar seems to have the password or be able to supply it.
Just being able to make a few adjustments would probably fix all of these issues.

If it becomes a problem down the road, I'll just swap the BMS for something I can adjust to work in the system.

It is frustrating to not be able to get access from Signature Solar to make small adjustments. I get the possible impact to warranty claims, but if they can't supply the correct settings, we should get the opportunity to fix it ourselves.

 

[robby]

What I need you to do right now is post your evidence. I want to see exactly which company posted 10,000 cycles five months ago. Who was that? To what capacity?

This was one of them
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/hithium-new-scam.43939/

 

[Will Prowse]

The obsession is based on watching the issues that occur when the cells are not balanced.
If my EG4LL pack is at 54.5V and I have cells in the Eg4LL that are at 3.67V and some that are 3.30V and a few in the middle at 3.4V what happens is that the Sol-Ark reads 100% SOC but the moment I load up the battery the 3.67V cells drop off real quickly to about 3.45V and the 3.3V ones remain pretty much the same. Within minutes the pack level voltage drops to 53V and my SOC is down to around 75%. Since all my TOU slots are based on SOC values the Inverter will cut out much earlier because I have reached 20% SOC.

In a normal situation where the EG4LL is in parallel with my eFlexs the problem is that the unbalanced EG4 will drop it's voltage level fast and the eFlexs will start trying to charge the EG4LL thereby wasting even more power.

So I end up losing a lot of the expected capacity at night if the EG4LL cells are not balanced. That is why I must always keep the cells in balance.

You need to get your money back. That is not good. No battery should ever do that. That battery is defective. What is your capacity test results? Let me know how they respond and what proof you provide.

 

[robby]

You need to get your money back. That is not good. No battery should ever do that. That battery is defective. What is your capacity test results? Let me know how they respond and what proof you provide.

The first thing I did was let Signature Solar know that the cell voltages were all over the place and that three of the cells had a serious issue. The response I got from James was that they do not warranty voltages only the capacity.
I pretty much threw up my hands at that point because under normal circumstances (The cells are balanced) I have no doubt the capacity will be fine.

As mentioned before I Do Not have another 48V Inverter to do a battery capacity test and my Sol-Ark is powering my whole house 24/7. I have no doubts it will pass so long as the cells are in balance. It's the pain in the rear problem of dealing with lots of cloudy and rainy days that makes this an ordeal. It only takes two consective days of bad weather and low PV and the EG4LL cells are totally out of balance.

 

[Shinzul]

Hmmmm... based on this thread I'm a little concerned about having just ordered 6x LifePower batteries from signature solar.

Should I cancel those and pay more for the SOK batteries??

 

[Bluedog225]

I don’t think anyone is going say you should cancel your order. You have to evaluate the customer service comments and make your own decision. I went with 4 SOK 48 volt batteries. I’ll probably buy 4 more. I also went with Battle Born for my 12 volt batteries. I sleep well.