EG4 new AIO rated 12K output and 18kPV aka "EG4-18Kpv-12LV"

[timselectric]

Just like everything else. The authorities are mandating something that doesn't have the kinks worked out, yet.

 

[houseofancients]

Seplos BMS will limit to 10a of charging if a runner is detected, not sure about other manufactures, but I'm sure they do.

and at the top charge curve..
meaning its passive balancer can do it's job better + as it first tells the inverter to limit the charging amp before hard cutting, it is easier on both bms and inverter/charger

 

[cs1234]

Seplos BMS will limit to 10a of charging if a runner is detected, not sure about other manufactures, but I'm sure they do.

I'm sure some BMS handle it much better than others. A self built battery has the potential to be the best battery, because you actually care about the quality. I've used a few different brands of cheap amazon lifepo4's, and they do go wild with runners.

Reducing the amperage wouldn't necessarily make much difference with poorly constructed packs, you have to pretty much shut the charge all the way down and let them settle for a really *long* time without active balancing. Comms wouldn't help, because for some reason almost all the incoming power goes to the runner, reducing amperage doesn't help. I don't even want to know what the inside of some of these cheap lifepo4 batteries look like.. then I'd never use them again. It could be cruddy wiring, cheap cells, awful BMS's.. everything.. they might be bad from top to bottom.

I can understand where @SignatureSolarJames is coming from, with not wanting to deal with that mess. I just want it clearly stated in all product documentation, so we know what we are buying from him.

What does UL9540 actually require of the battery component to increase quality? Active balancing? Certain cable thicknesses? What?

 

[cs1234]

and at the top charge curve..
meaning its passive balancer can do it's job better + as it first tells the inverter to limit the charging amp before hard cutting, it is easier on both bms and inverter/charger

I could see that, depending on how much tolerance it has to declare a runner.. sometimes they run pretty darn fast.

 

[Lt.Dan]

A self built battery has the potential to be the best battery

It also has the potential to be the worst battery ever because most people who are DIY'ing batteries are cheap bastards. Lol

 

[timselectric]

I'm cost conscious.
Not cheap. lol

 

[cs1234]

It also has the potential to be the worst battery ever because most people who are DIY'ing batteries are cheap bastards. Lol

At least they usually leave their work open, so they can marvel at it's cruddy magnificence. It's not hidden under tons of plastic and glue, dwelling in darkness.

 

[rhino]

I will summon my inner Will Prowse... "show me the data that the basic concept of closed loop is better than open loop".. "prove me wrong"

 

[Lt.Dan]

It also has the potential to be the worst battery ever because most people who are DIY'ing batteries are cheap bastards. Lol

It's me, I'm cheap bastards lol

Just thought I would clarify lmao

 

[SparkyJJO]

 

[Shimmy]

I will summon my inner Will Prowse... "show me the data that the basic concept of closed loop is better than open loop".. "prove me wrong"

If you have four parallel BMSs then an BMS/string experiencing problems is not going to show up in the charger as an issue; the charger just sees voltage and current. A 20% delta in one cell of one string only looks like a <1% delta at the inverter, and the cause of that delta cannot be known to the charger.

Closed-loop coms have the ability to give back cell-level status to the charger, and become inherently safer.

Of course... what happens when you couple an open-loop charger to the system along with the closed-loop charger?

 

[timselectric]

Of course... what happens when you couple an open-loop charger to the system along with the closed-loop charger?

Exploding balls of fire?
It's insanity. lol

 

[cs1234]

If you have four parallel BMSs then an BMS/string experiencing problems is not going to show up in the charger as an issue; the charger just sees voltage and current. A 20% delta in one cell of one string only looks like a <1% delta at the inverter, and the cause of that delta cannot be known to the charger.

Closed-loop coms have the ability to give back cell-level status to the charger, and become inherently safer.

Of course... what happens when you couple an open-loop charger to the system along with the closed-loop charger?

So now it's the charger making the decisions for all the BMS's? Or the BMS's collectively working as a team? Everything is more complicated with more BMS's.

In a perfect world, we shouldn't be using multiple BMS's. There should be only one, connected to all the cells we want to make up total pack volume. It would have powerful active balancing and be stronger than steel, able to stop a speeding bullet! A SuperBMS if you will.

 

[PreppenWolf]

If you have four parallel BMSs then an BMS/string experiencing problems is not going to show up in the charger as an issue; the charger just sees voltage and current. A 20% delta in one cell of one string only looks like a <1% delta at the inverter, and the cause of that delta cannot be known to the charger.

Closed-loop coms have the ability to give back cell-level status to the charger, and become inherently safer.

Of course... what happens when you couple an open-loop charger to the system along with the closed-loop charger?

In your scenario, the BMS isn't doing its job. If you have a 20% delta on a cell, you should be routinely getting BMS protection shutdowns when that batt cell tanks or spikes.

 

[cs1234]

In your scenario, the BMS isn't doing its job. If you have a 20% delta on a cell, you should be routinely getting BMS protection shutdowns when that batt cell tanks or spikes.

I agree, that BMS isn't doing it's job. It's probably not a better idea to let the inverter decide the BMS isn't doing it's job though. A BMS is designed to interact with the cells inside it. They could be unicorn horns inside, as far as the inverter knows. What the BMS does with what's it's given by charge sources is up the to the BMS. The charge source just needs to know when to stop.. that used to be based on voltage.. now it's based on something in the closed loop communication, what, I'm not exactly sure.

 

[PreppenWolf]

I'd prefer the AIO not try to be a BMS. It should be able to just throw a programmed voltage out. It's specifically the BMSs job to run the battery, not the AIOs. There are way too many battery options IMO to be sure running closed loop doesn't just make a bad situation worse.

Hence I would buy the unit and simply not care about the warranty if that was a requirement. If I really cared about a touch free system, I'd hire someone to install it. Not be on a DIY forum.

 

[PreppenWolf]

Saying you're going to be on a DIY forum and expect a manufacturer to honor a warranty is like being on a car tuner forum and bitching that Toyota won't warranty a blown motor you tinkered with.

 

[cs1234]

Saying you're going to be on a DIY forum and expect a manufacturer to honor a warranty is like being on a car tuner forum and bitching that Toyota won't warranty a blown motor you tinkered with.

In some ways sure. A large subset of DIY'ing is using things in creative ways for a variety of reasons. Nobody was talking about using this AIO in any type of weird way though, just hooking up commless batteries to it, as has been done for generations in the back country.

 

[timselectric]

Do we need to avoid future updates?
To make sure that we don't end up getting a constant alarm about not having closed loop.
Or is this going to be an issue, right out of the gate?

 

[SparkyJJO]

Do we need to avoid future updates?
To make sure that we don't end up getting a constant alarm about not having closed loop.
Or is this going to be an issue, right out of the gate?

I would think it would only alarm if it was configured for closed and had to fall back on open due to comm breakdown.

Otherwise that would tick off every LA user.

 

[cs1234]

I would think it would only alarm if it was configured for closed and had to fall back on open due to comm breakdown.

Otherwise that would tick off every LA user.

It probably has a setting for lead acid vs lifepo4. They could have it just harass lifepo4 users and not lead acid users.

 

[robby]

UL-9540 (A)
Seems to require the battery to pass the fire test without closed loop communication.

UL-9540 (Ed.2) talks about ESS having an Inverter that is tested together with it and certified together but I see nothing about closed loop comms being required. Did someone else find a section that requires that? These documents are extremely boring to read.

I am still looking at the other certifications in regards to the Inverter itself.

I have never seen an Inverter that can read battery voltages at the individual Cell level.
The only reporting from the BMS is the total Voltage, Current, SOC and Temp. All individual cell management I have observed is done by the BMS itself.

If one cell is at 3.75V and the other fifteen are at 3.30V the INVERTER treats the pack as though it is at 53.25V and charges the cells the same way as if all 16 cells were at 3.328V. It is the BMS itself that will try to discharge the one high cell into the lower cells and balance back the pack.
I am open to seeing or hearing something different but I have not personally seen or read of an Inverter doing a single thing to fix or stop an issue with a bad cell. If someone has seen something different I would love to hear about it.

 

[Rusty959]

It probably has a setting for lead acid vs lifepo4. They could have it just harass lifepo4 users and not lead acid users.

It does have a setting for lead acid vs lithium, and it also says to use the lead acid setting if running open loop.

Personally, for a stable system that isn't being rebuilt every week, I can't imagine preferring open loop. Just having an accurate SOC on the inverter would be worth it.

 

[timselectric]

Glad that I already have my system equipment.

 

[timselectric]

UL-9540 (A)
Seems to require the battery to pass the fire test without closed loop communication.

UL-9540 (Ed.2) talks about ESS having an Inverter that is tested together with it and certified together but I see nothing about closed loop comms being required. Did someone else find a section that requires that? These documents are extremely boring to read.

I am still looking at the other certifications in regards to the Inverter itself.

I have never seen an Inverter that can read battery voltages at the individual Cell level.
The only reporting from the BMS is the total Voltage, Current, SOC and Temp. All individual cell management I have observed is done by the BMS itself.

If one cell is at 3.75V and the other fifteen are at 3.30V the INVERTER treats the pack as though it is at 53.25V and charges the cells the same way as if all 16 cells were at 3.328V. It is the BMS itself that will try to discharge the one high cell into the lower cells and balance back the pack.
I am open to seeing or hearing something different but I have not personally seen or read of an Inverter doing a single thing to fix or stop an issue with a bad cell. If someone has seen something different I would love to hear about it.

With BMS communications. The BMS tells the charge controllers when and how much to charge.
Which in my case, it put the charger in crawl mode above 80%.
And some days never got fully charged.
No thank you.