Energy monitoring: Emporia Vue vs. Sense

[MaikaiLifeDIY]

Here is what I would do..

Just buy them on Amazon, whichever you don't like, send it back.

https://www.amazon.com/Sense-Flex-Home-Energy-Monitor/dp/B08N5GWZWQ/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3EYBBA5VERJ7R&keywords=sense+energy+monitor&qid=1700158331&sprefix=sense+ene%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-4

https://www.amazon.com/Emporia-Monitor-Circuit-Electricity-Metering/dp/B08CJGPHL9/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=Z3ZHM9Z6GC74&keywords=emporia+energy+monitor&qid=1700158373&sprefix=Emporia%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

 

[chilly2]

I've had Sense solar since 2020. Essentially it's a box with CT clamps for L1, L2 and one circuit it treats as solar, and a wifi antenna. As for recognising devices, it eventually identified the main things in my home, but the learning isn't great. It will talk to Kasa (or Wemo) smart switches to help with identifying specifics. Their cloud service tends to hiccup every now and again during which time the data is inaccessible, though it has a local buffer which covers if the problem was connectivity. The UX is simple enough and the app and web based interface are pleasant to use. It would be nice if it weren't so expensive.

 

[zanydroid]

+1 for Emporia. It also has more mindshare, probably mentioned 5x more than Sense on solar and EV forums that I’m on.

Heck even IotaWatt might have comparable mindshare to Sense in DIY and that’s on hiatus

 

[zanydroid]

Emporia solar monitoring works for me… I have it in a config that does not require bidirectional disambiguation.

Bidirectional should be a software only capability, but that doesn’t mean anything if not implemented…

 

[kendive]

Does Sense not have individual monitoring clamps?

I would never trust anything to just guess using two 200A clamps if it's that kind of thing.

The Vue is awesome and as best I can tell, quite accurate.

I still using EMONCMS and it works great but now that I have the enphase batteries it will show 0 watts used if I use sefl consumption. So I would like to find something that will monitor energy used, solar, and the batteries.

Will Vue do this?


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[AntronX]

Here is what I would do..
Just buy them on Amazon, whichever you don't like, send it back.

Amazon returns go to landfill. Which drives up prices for all of us.

 

[AntronX]

So I would like to find something that will monitor energy used, solar, and the batteries.
Will Vue do this?

Upcoming Vue 3 (in beta testing now) should have AC battery monitoring. Vue 2 does not.

 

[Ampster]

So I would like to find something that will monitor energy used, solar, and the batteries.

Will Vue do this?

The CT clamps of the Emporia will only work on 120/240 volt AC legs, not DC battery voltage.

 

[Ampster]

Amazon returns go to landfill. Which drives up prices for all of us.

I presume there is some filtering by Amazon based on price? They must have figured out it is less expensive than processing some returns so I concluded returns per se drive up prices and sending some to landfills has less impact on Amazon's cost than processing small ticket items. As an Amazon user, the return policy definitely has value to me.

 

[MaikaiLifeDIY]

Amazon returns go to landfill. Which drives up prices for all of us.

Really, then where do all the used Amazon warehouse deals come from? I'm perfectly happy to purchase something someone tried and didn't like/understand for less money.

 

[Ampster]

Really, then where do all the used Amazon warehouse deals come from?

I agree and earlier mentioned that there must be a filter of some sort on whether returns go to landfill or someone who buys them in bulk and has the labor to sort and list them for sale.

 

[Zwy]

I've had Sense solar since 2020. Essentially it's a box with CT clamps for L1, L2 and one circuit it treats as solar, and a wifi antenna. As for recognising devices, it eventually identified the main things in my home, but the learning isn't great. It will talk to Kasa (or Wemo) smart switches to help with identifying specifics. Their cloud service tends to hiccup every now and again during which time the data is inaccessible, though it has a local buffer which covers if the problem was connectivity. The UX is simple enough and the app and web based interface are pleasant to use. It would be nice if it weren't so expensive.

Instead of a Sense, it might be better to just use Eyedro. I've had one since 2020 and used it to determine exactly what our power usage was to size the solar system.

I still use it but it only gives the bulk usage per leg. Vue would work much better for circuit monitoring.

 

[AZ Solar Junkie]

No branch CT's, just mains, which makes it easier to install. Its supposed to be able to identify each load via the mains due to their respective unique power consumption profile. As you can see from the posts above, Sense doesn't work as advertised.

Emporia is much better. The only complaint I have with the Vue system is that ONLY the 2 channels for the main CT's are capable of monitoring bi-directional (NET metering) energy flow. This is a problem because one of our grid-tie systems ties into a subpanel that is monitored by 2 of the branch CT's. I've called them a few times over 2 years and they keep promising the fix is coming soon.

Their solar supplement installation guide seems to imply they can be bi-directional, but maybe I'm missing something - the quote below is from the doc...

Energy in from and out to grid The Emporia Vue is capable of monitoring your solar production. You will install your Vue differently depending on whether your solar is a breaker-fed or a line-side tap installation. These installations are covered in the subsequent pages. If you are interested in monitoring how much energy you are pulling and sending back to the grid, you’ll need to utilize 50A CTs as described below. The 200A CTs that connect to your mains will provide net metering out of the box — displaying electricity used minus electricity produced. To ensure the Vue can correctly measure net metering, the 200A CTs must be correctly oriented and be placed between the meter and the incoming solar. For the Vue to be able to calculate how much energy your system is getting from and sending out to the grid, you’ll need to employ two 50A CTs on the incoming leads from your inverter. Installation depends on where these leads enter your system, which is illustrated in detail on the next two pages.

 

[zanydroid]

The main is definitely bidirectional

The question is whether branch will only handle grid tie combiner only situation (in this config the branch code can simply assume all power is pushing towards grid). Vs more complex situations where power can go either way. I have two combiner only situations monitored on two CTs

 

[BentleyJ]

Their solar supplement installation guide seems to imply they can be bi-directional, but maybe I'm missing something - the quote below is from the doc...

We have 2 grid-tie systems, One feeding into a main panel and 1 feeding into a subpanel. The 200A main CT's are bi-directional but the 50A ct's monitoring the subpanel are not.

 

[fromport]

FWIW,
Sense is no longer a small startup. Both Schinder and Landis+Gyr invested big money into the company.

You mean this ?

Landis+Gyr Partners with Sense for Better Consumer Energy Management - Landis+Gyr

Our partnership with Sense provides the benefits of in-home energy monitoring built into Revelo, the latest addition to our family of meters.

www.landisgyr.com

[partner ship]
&

Sense Closes $18M Series B with Schneider Electric as Lead Investor

/PRNewswire/ -- Sense, whose intelligent home energy monitor provides real-time insights into energy and device activity in the home, announced the close of an...

www.prnewswire.com

Sense - Recent News & Activity

Sense specializes in tracking devices and home automation solutions for its customers.

www.crunchbase.com

That was a long time ago.

Later fundings rounds (C series)

Sense Closes $105 million Series C with Blue Earth Capital as Lead Investor

/PRNewswire/ -- Sense, the leader in real-time home energy intelligence, announced the close of a $105 million Series C financing led by Blue Earth Capital....

www.prnewswire.com

$105Million april 2022
&

Sense Adds to Series C, Totaling $127.6 Million, with Volery Capital Investing

/PRNewswire/ -- Sense, the leader in real-time home energy intelligence, announced the close of $127.6 million in Series C financing with Volery Capital...

www.prnewswire.com

$127.6 Million Sept 2022

That is some burn rate !

The idea of a startup is to be bought, not to have rounds of investments after each other.
They haven't been bought yet, so in my book still a startup and after this many years, not a successful one

Sense does an excellent job with the visualizations and solid energy report for total used. It just flat SUCKS for individual load tracking, and the Sense leadership simply doesn't care.

I had a very cloudy/rainy day testerday where the majority of my house is behind a All-in-One hybrid inverter.
Sense reports it like this:


So according to Sense:
To Grid: 8.1 kWh
From Grid: 2.1 kWh

My utility reports this:

To grid: 8.05 kWh (within margin of error with Sense)
From grid: 23.08 kWh

2.1 != 23.08
Sense is totally useless for me even it does have all the data needed.

I can't recommend anyone buy a Sense device unless they want aggregated reporting.

At least we agree on that point!

 

[fromport]

Amazon returns go to landfill. Which drives up prices for all of us.

I don't think that is completely true.

Companies like these

Bulldog Liquidators | Your Retail Liquidation Specialists

Bulldog Liquidators has been delivering the best value on quality products since opening our first retail location in 2007.

bulldogliquidators.com

buy all the returned goods for a certain price per container.
They sort and/or test the items and sell them for a lot less than new.
But for sure, not 100% of returns are going to the landfill

 

[AntronX]

I don't think that is completely true.

Sure, but it is a problem:

 

[kendive]

The CT clamps of the Emporia will only work on 120/240 volt AC legs, not DC battery voltage.

My Enphase batteries provide 240 AC with the IQ8 Inverters built in.

My question with the Vue work with Grid, Solar, and battery AC in/out. Can you program it that way?

Anyone using it like that.

Edit. Just found out that I can do this with what I got already. Looks like vue is really too basic for my needs. I have the enphase app but don't really use it much.

My Solar PV Battery app

A couple of years ago @sysriqo adapted the MySolarPVdivert app for use with batteries. The pull request was never merged as there was an unfinished discussion on whether to split the app out into its own separate app. Picking up from that point, sparked by recent discussions on this topic...

community.openenergymonitor.org

Thanks...


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[zanydroid]

My Enphase batteries provide 240 AC with the IQ8 Inverters built in.

My question with the Vue work with Grid, Solar, and battery AC in/out. Can you program it that way?

Anyone using it like that.

It's going to get confused about the direction, based on the above discussion, right? Because battery discharges and charges via AC.

And I don't think there is a way for you to bypass this by cleverly putting in CTs within the battery itself.