EV Network issues and a possible fix? A thought experiment...

[justinm001]

95% of people drive less than like 30 miles a day and 99% of people don't need anything other than a car for most cases. EV charging isn't a problem, there's chargers everywhere and all over you just need to know where to look. Gas stations dont want or need charging stations becuase their model doesn't support it. Its very rare that people NEED to charge away from home. Only people who live in apts or similar situations

The only issue is travelling and buying large items which I feel both are going to be solved soon.

It's just going to take 1 restaurant chain to offer free L2 charging when you come for a meal and others will follow suit. Same with hotels and shops. Paying a couple bucks in electricity for a family to eat is well worth the acquisition costs.

I'm just waiting for the "rent my truck for an hour" or "have truck will help move" app to blow up and it'll be game over. BTW uhaul has an app that allows 24/7 truck rental i think just not that great yet.

There's a point of mass adoption and we're right on the cusp. Give it a couple more years and EV will overtake gas as the default.

 

[justinm001]

So now, random gas station owners have 1 plug. some may have 5, and others have 0. How do they advertise this capability? How do they let people know if a spot is open or not? and, how (as the costomer) do you know if you should waste the time to pull in and check to see if they even offer the service?

I think a lot of things need to come together (over and above billing/metering) before this is an idea that can be successful. Thats not to say it can't be done! we can build apps that individual stations can advertise their EV spots.. We can even find ways to automate the app updates to say if a spot is available or not, etc etc. But yeah, I guess my point is.. this is a lot more than just "get a bunch of gas stations to install a plug" kinda thing.

Tesla superchargers solved this issue. They not only tell you how many spots are available but how many will be available when you get there. The level of EV charger and prepares your car to charge the fastest. I believe even suggests chargers based on availability instead of distance so will recommend the one 13miles instead of 11miles because there's 8 spots instead of 2 free.

 

[Rednecktek]

There's a point of mass adoption and we're right on the cusp. Give it a couple more years and EV will overtake gas as the default.

Until we crack the energy density issue, I think gas is going to be around for a long time in larger vehicles like trucks and vans. Sedans, minivans, SUV's you're most likely right but the energy density is still an issue.

So now, random gas station owners have 1 plug. some may have 5, and others have 0. How do they advertise this capability?

Easy, we're already doing it:

Tesla superchargers solved this issue. They not only tell you how many spots are available but how many will be available when you get there.

True, but we're back to waiting on a notional chain to do enough market analysis to decide if they want to put one there.

 

[justinm001]

Until we crack the energy density issue, I think gas is going to be around for a long time in larger vehicles like trucks and vans. Sedans, minivans, SUV's you're most likely right but the energy density is still an issue.

Overtake as default not eliminate gas vehicles. We're finally getting to the point where EVs are looking like normal cars that people actually want. F150 lightening is a great example, many don't want to stand out in an EV but just want a car with an EV option.

SUVs, minivans and such aren't an issue just because they're bigger they don't use much more EV.

Pickup trucks and other HD type vehicles are another story entirely. I can see them taking decades but regardless if we hit say 10%-20% we'll instantly go to 50%. Just need to hit that mass adoption so it isn't a niche and then people aren't afraid of range anxiety or anything else. We'll slowly adopt to 70-80% as many will wait for used and then it'll be game over.

My question is what will happen to fuel prices when EVs start taking over? Also what about that .50$ per gallon in fuel tax that's used for roads.... how will that be applied to EVs, or will it?

 

[n2aws]

Tesla superchargers solved this issue. They not only tell you how many spots are available but how many will be available when you get there. The level of EV charger and prepares your car to charge the fastest. I believe even suggests chargers based on availability instead of distance so will recommend the one 13miles instead of 11miles because there's 8 spots instead of 2 free.

Sure, but I think this 100% misses the mark. You're comparing a single entity who.. not only offers the chargers, but *also* integrates with the vehicles systems for reporting, so it's *easy* for them to reliably show availability across their network... that they own and are in full control of.

We're talking about some unknown number of *random* gas stations offering this using *random* EV chargers, and another unknown number of *random* consumers using this. Like using a service or app that another *random* person/group/entity puts together for this purpose. ie, that solution would *not* necessarily be able to get realtime data from all the vehicles using this service. Again, it's a problem that can be solved. BUT, I'm saying it's a problem that would need to be solved, before this is "a thing" that has any real potential.

We have to be cognizant of 1 simple fact. Much like any other app or website.. if it's a terrible experience the first time you use it, there is almost zero chance you use it a second time. This is the chicken-and-egg scenario that would need to be solved. Do the charger spots come first? Or does the app/system to USE the spots, come first? Neither can exist in a useful state, in isolation.

 

[Rednecktek]

My question is what will happen to fuel prices when EVs start taking over? Also what about that .50$ per gallon in fuel tax that's used for roads.... how will that be applied to EVs, or will it?

I'm assuming it'll just be a different tax like $0.05/Kwh or the like that will need to be programmed in or just added to the top of whatever the station wants to charge.

 

[justinm001]

Sure, but I think this 100% misses the mark. You're comparing a single entity who.. not only offers the chargers, but *also* integrates with the vehicles systems for reporting, so it's *easy* for them to reliably show availability across their network... that they own and are in full control of.

We're talking about some unknown number of *random* gas stations offering this using *random* EV chargers, and another unknown number of *random* consumers using this. Like using a service or app that another *random* person/group/entity puts together for this purpose. ie, that solution would *not* necessarily be able to get realtime data from all the vehicles using this service. Again, it's a problem that can be solved. BUT, I'm saying it's a problem that would need to be solved, before this is "a thing" that has any real potential. We have to be cognizant of 1 simple fact. Much like any other app or website.. if it's a terrible experience the first time you use it, there is almost zero chance you use it a second time. This is the chicken-and-egg scenario that would need to be solved. Do the charger spots come first? Or does the app/system to USE the spots, come first? Neither can exist in a useful state, in isolation.

Most tesla supercharging stations use gas stations or spare parking lots already. They're now letting any EV use their chargers. I have a feeling they'll continue their dominance and eventually Tesla stations will be just like BP.

There's chargepoint and a couple other EV charging stations all with their own system already too. So eventually the market will even out and they'll only be a handful just like there's only a handful of gas companies.

 

[Texas-Mark]

It has just seemed to me that the biggest push that EV needs is a charging network

Not just for on the road, but at home too. Not everyone has a garage or off street parking. What are they going to do, run an extension cord to the curb? And what about people that live in high rise apartments? Going to put a charging station at every parking spot? That leaves finding a place to charge. IMO we are still decades away from EVs on a large scale usage from being feasible.

 

[justinm001]

I'm assuming it'll just be a different tax like $0.05/Kwh or the like that will need to be programmed in or just added to the top of whatever the station wants to charge.

I'm still pushing them all to be mainly free and companies make their revenue off the customer just like parking lots are.

Also this doesn't solve the EV charging from home issue and lost tax revenue

 

[Rednecktek]

Not just for on the road, but at home too. Not everyone has a garage or off street parking. What are they going to do, run an extension cord to the curb? And what about people that live in high rise apartments? Going to put a charging station at every parking spot? That leaves finding a place to charge. IMO we are still decades away from EVs on a large scale usage from being feasible.

Or the renter that isn't allowed to wire in a charger.

 

[justinm001]

Not just for on the road, but at home too. Not everyone has a garage or off street parking. What are they going to do, run an extension cord to the curb? And what about people that live in high rise apartments? Going to put a charging station at every parking spot? That leaves finding a place to charge. IMO we are still decades away from EVs on a large scale usage from being feasible.

run EV charging stations at apartments with a long enough cord to reach 5 spots on either side. 10 chargers will serve 100 spots or 200 if only half can be EV. This along with the ability they already have to show when someone else's is charged.

There's this misconception that EV charging takes forever. A charge lasts as much as it takes to fillup a car with gas so most go 1-2 weeks between fillups. So if you're at 70% charge and plug in it doesn't take long to fill up or can wait a few days.

 

[Texas-Mark]

My question is what will happen to fuel prices when EVs start taking over? Also what about that .50$ per gallon in fuel tax that's used for roads.... how will that be applied to EVs, or will it?

IMO it will be decades before EVs outnumber gas cars. But I also believe that by then, between regulations and taxes, it will cost just as much or more than gas.

 

[Texas-Mark]

A charge lasts as much as it takes to fillup a car with gas so most go 1-2 weeks between fillups.

Say what?

 

[justinm001]

Say what?

Most EV charges are 200-300+ miles, simliar to fillups in cars. The point is you don't go fillup your car everyday at the gas station, so you don't need to fillup your EV everyday.

 

[Texas-Mark]

Most EV charges are 200-300+ miles, simliar to fillups in cars.

When they make an EV that gets the same 400 miles between charges WITH the AC running in 100+ degree weather, that my gas vehicle gets, I will be first in line to buy one. Sorry, but not similar at all.

 

[justinm001]

When they make an EV that gets the same 400 miles between charges WITH the AC running in 100+ degree weather, that my gas vehicle gets, I will be first in line to buy one. Sorry, but not similar at all.

You're missing the point entirely. How often do you need to fillup your tank? Unless you're filling up everyday it doesn't really make a difference.

I bought a 2014 volt brand new once. it was ev that went 40 miles then also has a gas engine. I worked far away across town a good 30 miles each way and it was great just to get gas once a month. Plugged into a 120v outlet and charged over 8 hours super slow since small battery.

Also I'd much rather plug my EV in everyday than spend 5 minutes at a gas pump once a week.

 

[n2aws]

When they make an EV that gets the same 400 miles between charges WITH the AC running in 100+ degree weather, that my gas vehicle gets, I will be first in line to buy one. Sorry, but not similar at all.

Personally, I think the plug-in hybrids make the most sense for most people (that would consider an electric vehicle), for the forseeable future.

 

[Texas-Mark]

You're missing the point entirely. How often do you need to fillup your tank?

Sometimes every day, sometimes every two day. I'm not the one missing the point. What works for you, may not work for others.
I have no issues with EVs. What I have an issue with is having them rammed down our throats by clueless bureaucrats without thinking things through.

I live near a rock quarry that has literally hundreds of trucks running all day long. Where is the push to get those pollution generators (big trucks) converted to electric?

 

[Rednecktek]

Personally, I think the plug-in hybrids make the most sense for most people (that would consider an electric vehicle), for the forseeable future.

I've always been a fan of the hybrids, I just wish they'd use larger battery banks. Being able to run around locally and plug in at night and still not have to worry about not finding a charging station when I do head out on longer runs is just the best of both worlds.

My only issue with hybrids is that they only have a 30 mile battery range which isn't worth jack squat! If someone were to make a 100 or 200 mile range hybrid that would be great!

Sadly even the new Hybrid Tundra doesn't have a usable sized battery in there IMHO to make it worth it, especially when it's getting the same EPA range as my 2006 Tundra is now.

 

[justinm001]

Sometimes every day, sometimes evey two day. I'm not the one missing the point. What works for you, may not work for others.

You're in the 1% of people where EV isn't optimal since you drive hundreds of miles a day.

Ev isn't THE solution it's A solution. I don't see gas or diesel vehicles going away or at least anytime soon.