diy solar

diy solar

feedback: this forum has convinced me not to build a solar system.

Grid tie is dying slowly, the power companies don't really want it and even though a state might have a law stating the utility has to allow grid tie, doesn't mean the utility can't set their own rules. The only reason grid tie hasn't died completely is net metering is many times mandated by a state utility board or legislature. However, the utilities are lobbying heavily to change the rules, especially investor owned utilities like Mid American (Berkshire has controlling interest).

Build your own micro grid to power daily loads and provide backup power is the answer. I looked thru your past posts and you had been involved in threads with grid tie and interconnection agreements. This is not the future. I recognized this early on and why I decided to not pursue grid tie and interconnection.

At $0.30/Kwh, it would be a no contest on whether to install a solar system or to remain on grid unless you are planning on moving in a few years or don't expect to live long enough to realize a decent payback. In my case, I'm in my late 50's and wanted energy security/comfort when I semi or fully retire. I had the money upfront, no need to borrow funds and money market was paying less than 2% interest so a solar system made sense as a place to put some of my funds.

I want to be energy independent as much as possible. I would not count on utility rates to remain at current levels in the future, the data centers and AI will consume huge amounts of power and you, the little guy, will be subsidizing the cost of the infrastructure needed to supply the large consumers of power.

Yer absolutly right in my opinion.

I am still planing and I intend to be off-grid totally. Power enough for daily loads in summer and enough panels to break even with daily loads. And a generator to charge the batteries in 10 hours if they get low from no sun.

I might rethink part of it, but ROI doesn't enter in to it. If I still live where I am at I might keep the grid with zero export and figure it saves the cost of the generator.
 
If you are paying .30 and can't make a diy system make financial sense ,you are doing something quite wrong.
I agree. The hard part is figuring out how to do it right. Sounds like maybe a sub-panel with an ATS...?

comment #8 in thread below.
"You will never earn your investment back building a solar system in a high latitude location not even getting into the issues with cold weather in your location would require a sheltered and insulated environment, no inverter or battery will handle Maine winters outside."

 
trying to help someone who wants to put as little effort as possible into the process, is frustrating.
That's a huge leap based on the very little that you know about me, and I don't appreciate it. Rather than make a (poor) assumption, why not ask me a few questions or develop another way of testing my knowledge/effort? I think/hope you will find that in reality the opposite is true.
 
Make your self a bad ass portable system, then put a few solar panels & MPPT on it, start running refrigerators and other OFF GRID devices. Watch your power bill drop and it start to pay for itself. Open a Fermented Barley Pop (FBP) and rejoice in all you had made, and he saw that it was very good!
View attachment 227445
Great idea! If I were single I would go that route. Doesn't work for families though :/
 
In my area it seems my options are
1. To execute some sort of agreement with the power company, which would be cost prohibitive and take years in my area.
2. To extend my purchase budget way way up and purchase ~triple the panels and battery capacity that I need, in order that I could safely go completely off-grid without worrying about running short on power.

Neither of these options yield a return on investment that would make solar worthwhile, and that is greatly disappointing to me.

Net metering was great when it was an option, and it provided a ROI of under 15 years for almost any system anywhere, most under 7 years, and DIY systems even less. Within the US the government subsidies (up to 30% federal, and more in some locales) and the rapid drop in pricing almost anywhere the ROI is under 7 years, and DIY systems approach 2 years.

But even now with terrible agreements with utility providers an ROI on any solar investment almost anywhere will still yield a 15 year ROI and that's with professionals handling everything. With DIY and utility interconnect it is easily under 7 years, and most under 5 years.

That's without batteries.

You don't provide enough specifics to indicate why the utility interconnect pushes the ROI to greater than 20 years (which is the lifetime of the solar system), but I can only assume you've done the math and are correct.

Going to the extreme other end of the scale - completely off grid - you are correct, you need about 3x solar, and on top of that a significant investment in battery capacity to accomplish that. I assume that's a problem for financial reasons.

When I faced the same issues I took the middle road, which others have already suggested, to which I'll add my process that might provide you a blueprint for moving forward:

I started off with a small amount of batteries, a smaller 48v 6kw output off grid inverter, and a pallet of solar panels (about 7kw). I installed a subpanel right next to the main panel for my house and a cheap automatic transfer switch to power the subpanel from either the utility or the solar system, preferring the solar system if it's on. Set up the solar system to feed the ATS, and started moving loads over to the subpanel.

I started with critical loads (as part of my reason for this system was power backup) and then went on to heavy daytime loads. It wasn't big enough to handle the old household AC unit, but it handled all the lighting and entertainment, fridges, freezers, dishwasher, laundry, etc. 6kW is a fair bit of power.

You can buy an entire solar system kit (minus solar mounting and wire) with a 6kw inverter, 4.8kwh battery, 6kw solar for $8,000. The battery doesn't need to be huge or carry you over nights, you just need enough battery to keep the inverter happy and avoid switching every time a cloud passes over the solar panels. My initial investment was about $4k for the inverter and panels as I had a bunch of old, used batteries I could throw at it. If I were to DIY it now from scratch I'd DIY my own battery since pre-built batteries still cost 2x as much as a DIY, and it would be $5k.

Once the system was running was able to better characterize my usage and the solar input I could expect at my location throughout the year. We made changes to how we use electricity - doing things that could be moved a day or two around such as laundry on sunny days and avoiding them on cloudy days - and we entered a peak utility program so our nights were cheaper and the payoff increased significantly.

From there we put more loads onto the subpanel, and upgraded the batteries, then the inverter. We added more panels just this year - just 1.8kw for $850 (nicer bifacial panels, which should do better in winter here in Michigan, assuming I mount them before then).

We no longer notice when power outages happen. The system switches to utility when the batteries run out, usually outside peak hours. My system is complicated by the fact that it's in an outbuilding, and that causes some issues which mean we do have to manage it somewhat, and also since I'm still using those old abused batteries so I'm only running the battery system between 10% and 80% so as to avoid runaway cells on the old packs, so we are still micromanaging it, but in a new system with the inverter close to the main panel this would all be automatic and you'd never have to think about it - though you might notice the switchover depending on the speed of your ATS.

That $8k kit could supply $2,500 of electricity at your $0.30/kwh rate every year, assuming good panel placement. It would be paid off in just over 3 years. It would not involve the 3x investment required to go completely offgrid, nor the utility interconnect agreement. Going fully DIY and finding sources of cheaper panels and batteries you could pay it off in 2 years.

So I think your original premise still stands - now is a good time to invest. With solar panel tariffs increasing, and probably battery tariffs once we have enough US battery manufacturing that they start lobbying the government for protection, I don't expect it to get much cheaper.

The one thing I will suggest, though, is getting an inverter that can be paralleled. I had to swap out my 6kw for a 12kw, and while I can attach grid tie inverters (and in fact have a 6kw grid tie already set up for that purpose, just not used at the moment - need more solar panels) not all off grid inverters will properly accept grid tie sources, so getting one that can be paralleled from the start would be better.
 
Grid tie is dying slowly, the power companies don't really want it and even though a state might have a law stating the utility has to allow grid tie, doesn't mean the utility can't set their own rules. The only reason grid tie hasn't died completely is net metering is many times mandated by a state utility board or legislature. However, the utilities are lobbying heavily to change the rules, especially investor owned utilities like Mid American (Berkshire has controlling interest).

Build your own micro grid to power daily loads and provide backup power is the answer. I looked thru your past posts and you had been involved in threads with grid tie and interconnection agreements. This is not the future. I recognized this early on and why I decided to not pursue grid tie and interconnection.

At $0.30/Kwh, it would be a no contest on whether to install a solar system or to remain on grid unless you are planning on moving in a few years or don't expect to live long enough to realize a decent payback. In my case, I'm in my late 50's and wanted energy security/comfort when I semi or fully retire. I had the money upfront, no need to borrow funds and money market was paying less than 2% interest so a solar system made sense as a place to put some of my funds.

I want to be energy independent as much as possible. I would not count on utility rates to remain at current levels in the future, the data centers and AI will consume huge amounts of power and you, the little guy, will be subsidizing the cost of the infrastructure needed to supply the large consumers of power.
Thanks. This is helpful. In my previous threads somehow this idea never came up, or I missed it.

I'm starting to get the idea of this and I think it would suit my needs. It sounds like a 'micro grid' is a subpanel powered by an off-grid inverter, with an automatic transfer switch between the subpanel and the main panel. Is that correct?

Next I need to figure out what the electronic trigger is for the automatic transfer switch, how it is setup, and which ATS is safe/durable/compatible.
 
You can also go the "ChargeVerter" route, built an on-line UPS with PV that only draws from grid at low SoC (voltage).
Double conversion causes additional losses, but means glitchless transfer.

Best for loads that don't need massive starting surge.

Equipment does fail, so consider automatic transfer switch returning to grid if inverter stops working (if important loads like refrigeration.)

Net Metering made things so easy ... sigh!
 
I'm starting to get the idea of this and I think it would suit my needs. It sounds like a 'micro grid' is a subpanel powered by an off-grid inverter, with an automatic transfer switch between the subpanel and the main panel. Is that correct?
Yes.
Next I need to figure out what the electronic trigger is for the automatic transfer switch, how it is setup, and which ATS is safe/durable/compatible.
The ATS is already automatic. If the primary power source (solar inverter) is providing power, then it switches to that. If it's not, it switches to the backup power source (utility).

Set up the inverter to turn on when the batteries are 20-50 percent charged, and turn off when the batteries are at 10%. If the system switches frequently, move some circuits back to your main panel and plan on increasing your panels and/or batteries depending on what limit you're hitting.

It will be fully automatic.
 
Hi, just wanted to leave some feedback here. You have all provided some great advice and wisdom and I appreciate it.

I have been watching solar for 20 years wondering when is the right time to go.

I believed that now the high price of electricity ($0.30/kwh), low price of panels, reasonable price of batteries, and advancements in inverter/battery electronics and all-weather capability had finally hit the sweet spot.

This forum has convinced me that is not the case.

In my area it seems my options are
1. To execute some sort of agreement with the power company, which would be cost prohibitive and take years in my area.
2. To extend my purchase budget way way up and purchase ~triple the panels and battery capacity that I need, in order that I could safely go completely off-grid without worrying about running short on power.

Neither of these options yield a return on investment that would make solar worthwhile, and that is greatly disappointing to me.

It will never be the time for it.
So long energy company and your country government try to suck you cash.

Reason you go solar is that you like to free from that.
Free means you need to make cost for it .
And the profit come later after the invest pay it self of
And the profit come to your after that.

Other reasons to go solar is that you are in country that grid is unstable to use

Or some do it for mothers nature .
Make clean energy means a lower co2 food print of your self.
 
A generac 100A ATS would run you about $400. It doesn't have much smarts in it, and usually depends on a generac generator or controller, however these can also generally be controlled by the inverter, though I expect you'll have to do some research to understand and set it up correctly.

For my part I'm using a cheap 100A $70 ATS from amazon that's not UL rated. Eventually I'll upgrade, but it meets my needs for now and doesn't require the inverter to talk to it - it just switches to whichever source has power, preferring the solar system if both do.
 
You don't provide enough specifics to indicate why the utility interconnect pushes the ROI to greater than 20 years (which is the lifetime of the solar system), but I can only assume you've done the math and are correct.

Going to the extreme other end of the scale - completely off grid - you are correct, you need about 3x solar, and on top of that a significant investment in battery capacity to accomplish that. I assume that's a problem for financial reasons.

When I faced the same issues I took the middle road, which others have already suggested, to which I'll add my process that might provide you a blueprint for moving forward:
Love how dense your post is; thank you. This is exactly what I've been looking for.

To answer your ROI question, my wife comes from an extremely heavy 'Let Professionals Do It" family/background. My limitations are primarily from that. So, I can't fund this project unless the ROI is <5 years on paper. Doesn't have to be exactly that in practice.

I live in Maine, and sun is weak here, and often blocked by clouds/snow. I'll find a way around the snow problem, but can't fix the clouds. So, my ROI time is longer because less sun.

My calculations are similar to what you've listed- I'd like to buy 16 panels at around $118 each, a $1500 off-grid 8kW inverter, a $3600 14kWh battery, wire and mounting gear (unistrut/easyStrut/superStrut).

So I'm planning for ~$8k, coming in at a little over $5k after fed tax credit. I have more on ROI calculations in my other thread: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/n...buy-from-the-power-company.86636/post-1140938

If I can get this working and show my wife it is feasible, then in a year or two I'll get wife permission to put more panels on the roof of our house, and add another inverter & battery.

Thanks for writing- you've convinced me to get back in the game.
 
The one thing I will suggest, though, is getting an inverter that can be paralleled. I had to swap out my 6kw for a 12kw, and while I can attach grid tie inverters (and in fact have a 6kw grid tie already set up for that purpose, just not used at the moment - need more solar panels) not all off grid inverters will properly accept grid tie sources, so getting one that can be paralleled from the start would be better.
Since I'm now looking at off-grid inverters, I'm starting from scratch reading specs/manuals. But, EG4 seems highly recommended by Prowse, so I'm currently thinking EG4 6000XP with an EG4 PowerPro allweather 14kWh battery.

The 6000XP is more than I was hoping to pay (was hoping for ~$900) but I think the compatibility might make life a little easier.
 
I've been happy with signature solar, and if I were starting now I'd probably go with the EG4. At the time I started Growatt was the best option in terms of price for capability for a low frequency off grid inverter, and honestly it's a solid work horse. The EG4 provides more bells and whistles (that I would have liked!) and I believe it can be paralleled, which I think is a must in the start small and grow category you and I fall into.

Most of these inverters will have power pass through, which is essentially an automatic transfer switch. I haven't looked at the EG4 specifically, but the power pass through option combined with the parallel option has always left me a little confused. Two 6kW inverters would have to switch at exactly the right time if it is a true ATS. If it's just a double conversion, though, then it should be fine. However most inverters have a rated output that is higher than their charging capacity, so in that case you still wouldn't get full power in a pass-through situation.

I recommend an external transfer switch to avoid all that, but ask about that as you shop around.

And do lean heavily on the sales teams now while you're still deciding. They'll give you a lot more support in how to set up a system - even in an oddball configuration - before the sale than they will after the sale. Sad fact of life. Design the system fully and completely on paper, and resolve all questions and unknowns before your first order and you'll be much happier with the resulting build out process than otherwise. It's not so bad if they take a day or two to get back to you now, but when you've got the system installed and it's not working as expected that day or two (or longer) delay seems much more painful.
 
Build your own micro grid to power daily loads and provide backup power is the answer. I looked thru your past posts and you had been involved in threads with grid tie and interconnection agreements. This is not the future. I recognized this early on and why I decided to not pursue grid tie and interconnection.
Thanks! Yes, with the new information I have today, I'm starting to realize that. 1201 made a similar suggestion yesterday, but I didn't understand it fully at the time, and it got a bit lost in a sea of people telling me what I want to do would never work without the power company's assistance.
 
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Exactly. This is how it works with Central Maine Power as well. I found CMP moved pretty quickly with the paperwork for me. The hardest part for me is getting the required inspection for final interconnect. This final step is still in progress, but shows signs of possible success.
Hardest part in my process as well. I asked Versant more about this and they said a local code enforcement person could sign the paperwork instead of a licensed electrician, if they are willing.

I don't know about CMP, but Versant's paperwork basically says: Customer is responsible for any install/maintenance/upgrade cost we want to charge them at any time, without prior notice. That made me very nervous about any extra agreements with the power company.
 
Since I'm now looking at off-grid inverters, I'm starting from scratch reading specs/manuals. But, EG4 seems highly recommended by Prowse, so I'm currently thinking EG4 6000XP with an EG4 PowerPro allweather 14kWh battery.

The 6000XP is more than I was hoping to pay (was hoping for ~$900) but I think the compatibility might make life a little easier.
Srne is about the same price and 10kw instead of 6kw.

Slow down- there is a ton to learn but you'll be able to make the best decisoon

Also, you don't need an expensive transfer switch. A $30 generator interlock will have you switched back to grid in no time if you inverter goes down.

Inverters already have an automatic transfer switch so this would simply be for when the inverter is down.
 
My calculations are similar to what you've listed- I'd like to buy 16 panels at around $118 each, a $1500 off-grid 8kW inverter, a $3600 14kWh battery, wire and mounting gear (unistrut/easyStrut/superStrut).

Consider vastly more panels, if you can fit them.
PV panels are (can be, depending on selection) 1/10th the price of batteries (per kWh produced or stored in reasonable lifetime). Maybe 1/5th with mounting costs?
You can overpanel to 150% without clipping if multiple orientations. Aim for 200% to 300% of rated power to help on marginal days.
That should result in better utilization of the more expensive parts.
 
Consider vastly more panels, if you can fit them.
PV panels are (can be, depending on selection) 1/10th the price of batteries (per kWh produced or stored in reasonable lifetime). Maybe 1/5th with mounting costs?
You can overpanel to 150% without clipping if multiple orientations. Aim for 200% to 300% of rated power to help on marginal days.
That should result in better utilization of the more expensive parts.
I was thinking about this the other day. Once I get the panels in hand I'll do some measurements so I can see for myself, but yes since I plan to have them at opposite angles on the roof it might work to overpanel.
 
Hi, just wanted to leave some feedback here. You have all provided some great advice and wisdom and I appreciate it.

I have been watching solar for 20 years wondering when is the right time to go.

I believed that now the high price of electricity ($0.30/kwh), low price of panels, reasonable price of batteries, and advancements in inverter/battery electronics and all-weather capability had finally hit the sweet spot.

This forum has convinced me that is not the case.

In my area it seems my options are
1. To execute some sort of agreement with the power company, which would be cost prohibitive and take years in my area.
2. To extend my purchase budget way way up and purchase ~triple the panels and battery capacity that I need, in order that I could safely go completely off-grid without worrying about running short on power.

Neither of these options yield a return on investment that would make solar worthwhile, and that is greatly disappointing to me.
I agree, I do not believe there is adequate ROI to justify the expense and investment of personal time and energy of installing solar anywhere that a grid connection exists in the USA. I’m doing it because it’s a fun “hobby” and I’m having a blast with it. I have a boat, don’t want a truck (prefer my jeep) have a tractor and I’ve spent less going off grid than some guys spent on the truck they pull their boat with.
 
I agree, I do not believe there is adequate ROI to justify the expense and investment of personal time and energy of installing solar anywhere that a grid connection exists in the USA. I’m doing it because it’s a fun “hobby” and I’m having a blast with it. I have a boat, don’t want a truck (prefer my jeep) have a tractor and I’ve spent less going off grid than some guys spent on the truck they pull their boat with.
Oooh a fellow tractor enthusiast :)

Mine's a Ferguson 35 from the 1960s.

I'm also aiming to have fun with it, so you have me dead to rights. Need the system to make sense before my wife will green light it.
 
I agree, I do not believe there is adequate ROI to justify the expense and investment of personal time and energy of installing solar anywhere that a grid connection exists in the USA. I’m doing it because it’s a fun “hobby” and I’m having a blast with it. I have a boat, don’t want a truck (prefer my jeep) have a tractor and I’ve spent less going off grid than some guys spent on the truck they pull their boat with.
The California guys would disagree with you- heavily.
 
The California guys would disagree with you- heavily.
Ah California, the one state with power more expensive than Maine. At least there is sun there :cool:

In case anyone's curious, a significant chunk of the power cost in Maine is distribution. As solar is adopted, fewer people pay into distribution, and that cost gets redistributed to the remaining users. Power was 20 cents/kWh here a few years ago, next year it will be 30 cents. The higher the price goes, the more people adopt solar, the fewer pay into distribution, the higher the price goes, and on-and-on.
 

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