diy solar

diy solar

ground mount installation questions

DIY isn't for everyone, I spent about 1.5 years from when I first ordered items until I completely finished but I did some improvements to my basement in the process as the inverters and batteries would be located there. Plus in summer I don't get much time to work on my projects.

I would DIY an off grid type system given the current climate for grid tie systems. California enacts NEM 3.0 in April, here in Timbuktu, Iowa the local rural electric coop is now playing games with current grid tie systems. I had a farmer tell me the other day he received a letter from the coop concerning his net metering agreement. He called them and was told he will receive a one time payment on this settlement date for his excess and he can only bank 2000Kwh now. Anything over on the bank they get for free and no payout at settlement. He usually banked a large number of Kwh to cut his drying costs for his corn crop. This is now the 3rd change in about 10 years. My brother put up a 17Kw wind generator and when he put it up, he received $0.10/Kwh. There was a merger between coops and the contracts were thrown out, he was forced to go net metering and a limit on his bank of 2000Kwh. He now builds up his bank and shuts his system down until he draws the bank back down. The farmer will be switching his house to radiant floor heat with electric boiler setup and add heat pumps to garage and shop, anything he can do to use up excess.

Things are changing and not for the betterment of the homeowner, farmer, business, etc that invested in a grid tie system. It's the reason I went with off grid for my house. I still have a meter on my property and still have usage. My shop is on the property and it will remain on the grid. I wanted a system where if I retire someday I won't have to pay an electric bill for my house and I can shift some heating with LP gas to heat pumps run by solar in spring and fall.

The problem is the utilities get to change the rules when they see a benefit to their bottom line. Doesn't matter if it is a rural coop or a utility with investors, everyone employed there from the administrator to the linemen or the investors, all want an increase in wages, benefits and dividends so they will squeeze the grid tie operators as they are the minority at this stage. What I have noticed is the people who think they are in charge push for green energy but only in ways they can profit from it. No different than the installers that quoted your system, they want rules and regs so they can be the sole providers and profit from it.
 
Zwy said:
DIY isn't for everyone, I spent about 1.5 years from when I first ordered items until I completely finished but I did some improvements to my basement in the process as the inverters and batteries would be located there. Plus in summer I don't get much time to work on my projects.

I would DIY an off grid type system given the current climate for grid tie systems. California enacts NEM 3.0 in April, here in Timbuktu, Iowa the local rural electric coop is now playing games with current grid tie systems. I had a farmer tell me the other day he received a letter from the coop concerning his net metering agreement. He called them and was told he will receive a one time payment on this settlement date for his excess and he can only bank 2000Kwh now. Anything over on the bank they get for free and no payout at settlement. He usually banked a large number of Kwh to cut his drying costs for his corn crop. This is now the 3rd change in about 10 years. My brother put up a 17Kw wind generator and when he put it up, he received $0.10/Kwh. There was a merger between coops and the contracts were thrown out, he was forced to go net metering and a limit on his bank of 2000Kwh. He now builds up his bank and shuts his system down until he draws the bank back down. The farmer will be switching his house to radiant floor heat with electric boiler setup and add heat pumps to garage and shop, anything he can do to use up excess.

Things are changing and not for the betterment of the homeowner, farmer, business, etc that invested in a grid tie system. It's the reason I went with off grid for my house. I still have a meter on my property and still have usage. My shop is on the property and it will remain on the grid. I wanted a system where if I retire someday I won't have to pay an electric bill for my house and I can shift some heating with LP gas to heat pumps run by solar in spring and fall.

The problem is the utilities get to change the rules when they see a benefit to their bottom line. Doesn't matter if it is a rural coop or a utility with investors, everyone employed there from the administrator to the linemen or the investors, all want an increase in wages, benefits and dividends so they will squeeze the grid tie operators as they are the minority at this stage. What I have noticed is the people who think they are in charge push for green energy but only in ways they can profit from it. No different than the installers that quoted your system, they want rules and regs so they can be the sole providers and profit from it.
Click to expand...
So they do net metering here in Wa. so maybe tying into the grid isn't actually worth it
 
DocDCS said:
So they do net metering here in Wa. so maybe tying into the grid isn't actually worth it
Click to expand...
Grid or off grid - it gets debated quite a bit. I ended up building an off-grid system that is very similar to @Zwy 's setup, mostly because I got fed up with the power company. I'm extremely glad I did now, but DIY on a system the size you're doing is not for everyone. It's a massive amount of work and there are a lot of potential pitfalls, some of them potentially expensive and/or dangerous. If it's just about money you can save a ton going DIY. I have 14kw of panels, will be doubling my batteries from 30kWh to 60 next week, dual LV6548 inverters that are rated for 13kw of production, and a transfer switch so I can flip it all back to grid if I need to do maintenance or have a failure. I'll be all in at about $40k or a little less, not counting the tax incentive, so net cost will be about $28k.

You mentioned one battery but you didn't say what size. I'm guessing something like a powerwall at 13kWh. The bid you posted didn't mention a battery at all. If you're looking for backup power during an outage you're going to need batteries and 13kWh won't last long.

IMHO, grid tied has too many drawbacks. But depending on your situation, power company, local codes, etc., off grid may not even be an option. Regardless of which way you go, I'd want to see an itemized list of components with brand and model of everything. That's the only way you're ever going to be able to do an apples to apples comparison on bids.
 
DocDCS said:
So they do net metering here in Wa. so maybe tying into the grid isn't actually worth it
Click to expand...
The problem with entering into a interconnection agreement is one party gets to change rules based upon the fine print. The government/utilities board lets them do it. As more grid tied solar comes online, the rules will get changed so utilities can benefit from the changes, not the small producer. The recent decision in CA concerning NEM 3.0 is a prime example. High TOU rates, meanwhile you only get credit based upon wholesale cost of production. For example, you might get $0.03/Kwh for the excess and buy it back when you need it at $0.40/Kwh. Read this thread and see how not only CA changes the rules but many other states also. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/c...act-on-nem1-2-customers-and-what-to-do.32344/

The first thing I would do in your case is to perform an energy audit and find ways you can cut consumption. The advantage to that is you can get rebates from the utility company to cover some of the cost such as LED lighting, timers on lights, changing to more efficient appliances, more efficient heat pumps. Conservation is cheap in the long run, when/if you ever add a solar system, you won't need a system as large if you are making efficient use of the electricity. You might find in the end you only need a system half the proposed size.
 
DocDCS said:
Hello wise members,

I am looking to get a ground mount system installed at my house. I've been quoted $122,400.00 as the install price with one battery for a 32 KW system. Not knowing anything about pricing around solar I am curious on thoughts from people here.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
$122,400.00 seems very high but how big of a house? I don't expect an answer really. But a multi-million dollar home this might be a fair price. The quote looked like it was from a Craigslist type of solar installer with very little specs. Definitely get a couple quotes from other companies. I bet if you got a quote with more specific details you will see a considerable price difference but don't let them know your first quote so they don't try to match it or get just under it. Consider your monthly or yearly electric bill now and will this make you 100%, 50% or 25% on solar?
 
JLBinTN said:
What latitude are you at? Was a vertical mount more efficient production-wise (and less expensive) than a flat mount, or were there other reasons for that choice? Do the panels swivel?
Click to expand...
62N. If you use PVWatts to calculate installation angle, vertical, even bifacial, is worse than conventional angle. Less expensive, certainly not. Easier to do, no effing way...

I was planning to use bifacials with vertical installation for almost two years, but as I usually pay under 0,10e for my electricity, I didn't act on it. Now that I pay little over 0,20e and my friend insisted that we buy everything together to get better deals, I decided to go for it. Reason for vertical installation was just a voice in my head: With an empty field and bifacials with no shadows (not even from mounting structure) and 4-5 months of snow I just can't see any other way to do it. Actually these are 5-10 degree shy from being totally vertical as that way noon sun is better harvested and later, when evening sun is shining on the backside, it's already low enough not to loose that much production because "wrong" panel angle. I think the key here is to avoid shadows. And what you loose because wrong angle, you gain on the other side, especially here where sun is never high, not even in summer.

Panels are fixed.
 
DocDCS said:
So they do net metering here in Wa. so maybe tying into the grid isn't actually worth it
Click to expand...
Not sure why you would say that. Taking into account that no ones life liberty or happiness is safe while the legislature is in session ;) In most cases and most states, rate plans are usually "forever", if the state wants to make changes they start a new rate plan. Rural coops are a different story, they usually have a lot more flexibility on rate plans.

As an example I have a net metering plan for 6 KW of panels under a now closed rate plan. This 6KW of inverter capacity is "grandfathered" as long as the house has service. The rate for power going out of the meter is aways equal to the rate of power going in and as long as I have surplus to use I do not pay for power. I cant take it with me but whomever buys the place someday get to carry it forward. In my case I can pump all my capacity into the grid as long as it goes through 6KW nameplate of compliant inverters. I currently run a surplus and that surplus has no mandatory true up date, I build up surplus all summer and then burn it off during heating season with increased use and a minisplit for fall into winter heating. I keep an eye on it and adjust my wood boiler use to keep the surplus around 1000Kwh. If things are going well I use the minisplit earlier in the spring. By the end of March, I am usually back into breakeven mode and start building it up again. If I really want to once a year I can sell my surplus to the utility at the wholesale rate, something I do not ever plan to do. Sure the legislature could get rid of the grandfathering but there are decades of precedent with the state PUC that that is not done. So in my case net metering is ideal. I can even sell SRECs albeit at a low rate to cover my monthly bill that covers maintaining the account.

In the case of someone with new solar panels in NH the tariff has changed, the utility now charges fees for power going through the meter. More importantly, they cash out the surplus KWH on a monthly basis and turns it into a dollar credit based on the current rates. NH power rates vary seasonally with summer generation being less costly than winter so they buy my power cheap and then in winter when I want to use it they charge me the high winter rate. Definitely not as good of a deal. I would need to produce a lot more surplus power in the summer unless someone comes up with true long term seasonal storage that is affordable.

So look up the specific tariffs in your state applicable to your application before making an expensive decision.
 
Granted my electric rates are cheap here, but not even factoring in repairs, possible interest, etc., ROI of that system would be at least 70 years for me. Assuming it is even large enough to cover my usage.
 
koppted said:
Sounds like the company is trying to put you in debt for $122,400 + Interest. Look into doing small DIY units and then once you've understood the concepts, you will probably be able to do the majority of your 32kw system yourself for a quarter of the price.
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Yes, he can for about 3/4 with the proper size battery and Tier 1 equipment. I have around 34kWp. 1/4 or $31k will get you a small battery with EG4 type setup. It’s all in want you want to spend your hard earned money on and how much time you have to fiddle.
 
RV10flyer said:
Yes, he can for about 3/4 with the proper size battery and Tier 1 equipment. I have around 34kWp. 1/4 or $31k will get you a small battery with EG4 type setup. It’s all in want you want to spend your hard earned money on and how much time you have to fiddle.
Click to expand...
He just has to know it is time consuming if you do it yourself. I did my own ground mount on an 8KW system. I worked from July to October. Although I'm not completely done, I have it functional to were I'm able to switch between utility and my system to save on electric bill. Plan to expand to 16KW this summer. Once the cold weather comes in, I go into hibernation. I only work and sleep after that, don't even go outside except for work.
 
DocDCS said:
thanks all for your replies, it's been helpful.
Click to expand...
You mentioned a "32 KW system" I am assuming that means peak production since 1 battery, of unknown size, can't realistically give you 32kw of storage. That would be six 100ah batteries.

For $122,400:
  1. I would do an energy audit first, or at least review your past bills for actual usage.
  2. Then I would do a realistic detailed written description of what you wanted to accomplish...the system's mission.
  3. Review peak solar, winter solar production capability, storage needs/capability, security, etc.
  4. Then review budget, tax credits available, financing, etc.
  5. Then a detailed estimate complete with site drawing, schematic, permit requirements, etc.
Then after all that, if I were you I would assess if I could do a DIY system and what the material costs would be in detail.
Finally, I would let my wife make the decision :)

FWIW...Around here $122,400 should come with a new barn to put it in, or at least a new tractor with a front loader.
 
AHTrimble said:
You mentioned a "32 KW system" I am assuming that means peak production since 1 battery, of unknown size, can't realistically give you 32kw of storage. That would be six 100ah batteries.

For $122,400:
  1. I would do an energy audit first, or at least review your past bills for actual usage.
  2. Then I would do a realistic detailed written description of what you wanted to accomplish...the system's mission.
  3. Review peak solar, winter solar production capability, storage needs/capability, security, etc.
  4. Then review budget, tax credits available, financing, etc.
  5. Then a detailed estimate complete with site drawing, schematic, permit requirements, etc.
Then after all that, if I were you I would assess if I could do a DIY system and what the material costs would be in detail.
Finally, I would let my wife make the decision :)

FWIW...Around here $122,400 should come with a new barn to put it in, or at least a new tractor with a front loader.
Click to expand...
My monthly power bill averages $300 so the contractor based the 32 kw off that with bout 104% offset. As far as what I want to accomplish. I don't want to be dependant on puget sound energy :) So perhaps I could go with a smaller system and battery backup.
 
DocDCS said:
My monthly power bill averages $300 so the contractor based the 32 kw off that with bout 104% offset. As far as what I want to accomplish. I don't want to be dependant on puget sound energy :) So perhaps I could go with a smaller system and battery backup.
Click to expand...
You said off grid mostly? It will be grid-tied, correct? Does your utility have Net-Metering?
 
Shucks just spent near $10000 on solar last year and was looking forward to that 30% tax credit and then find that as a retired person on Soc security plus my home manufacturing I end up paying no income tax only self employment tax which is basically about 13% of my earned income as payroll tax and the credit does not come off that tax. Guess my ROI will take a little longer now.
 
Texas-Mark said:
So that is still about 34 years ROI. And does not factor in interest (if you would be financing) or any repairs/upgrades down the road. Not sure what tax credits are available these days, but that is still a long time.
Click to expand...
About 19.4 years with the 30% federal tax credit.

Conservation/load reduction is a much better ROI.
DocDCS said:
My monthly power bill averages $300 so the contractor based the 32 kw off that with bout 104% offset. As far as what I want to accomplish. I don't want to be dependant on puget sound energy :) So perhaps I could go with a smaller system and battery backup.
Click to expand...

What is the current rate per Kwh? Do you have the monthly Kwh usage off the bill?
 
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