Hello. I’m new here. 1st post. Looking for general input for electricity… remote cabin

[AnarchyJet]

The MPP 2724 AIO I first recommend has standby consumption of 25w. If you want the best, better start looking at Victron. The Multiplus 12-2000 is 9 watts.

https://www.amazon.com/Victron-MultiPlus-Compact-Inverter-Charger/dp/B0053XY8NY/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=331SVUNB5QSEF&keywords=multiplus+12%2F2000%2F80-50&qid=1668538653&sprefix=multiplus+12%2Caps%2C90&sr=8-3-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1&smid=ALRPFGEN62HZC

You are back to a 12 volt system, add a bunch of cheap 100Ah batteries in parallel. Pair with a Victron SCC and all the goodies

Follow Will's video to hook it all up

 

[Nan_wpg]

25 watts is not bad at all.

is v the best?I just watched that video today actually. It’s awfully complicated I think.

im off la batteries now. I get the life4 thing. But what about Morningstar charge controller/Morningstar inverter/life4 batteries and a google old Bogart shunt?

it’s electricity. It shouldn’t be this complicated. I e been reading Handybob site. Seems simpler?

 

[Rednecktek]

25 watts is not bad at all.

Not bad at all

is v the best?I just watched that video today actually. It’s awfully complicated I think.

It depends on who you ask. Ford VS Toyota. Apple vs Android. For me there's nothing that Victron does that I am willing to pay that extra money for. I work for a living.

im off la batteries now. I get the life4 thing. But what about Morningstar charge controller/Morningstar inverter/life4 batteries and a google old Bogart shunt?

MorningStar is a great brand for most things, right up there with Victron other than their AIO's which are really not looking good at all. LFP batteries are really the bee's knees for batteries for 99% of use cases, unfortunately you and I fall into that 1% that makes things a bit more complex.

it’s electricity. It shouldn’t be this complicated. I e been reading Handybob site. Seems simpler?

Ask any electrician who's ever had to work both generation side AND residential and it really is that complicated. The biggest draw to AIO's is that it makes things MUCH less complicated by doing all the work from the SCC, the transfer switch, the inverter, and the AC charger for you in one convenient package.

Much like in the world of PC's, I've made many many PC's buying the exact parts I want and assembling and configuring them myself, but this last PC is an HP because it was cheaper than anything I could build and readily available to walk out the door with. Some tweaks and it handily pwns my old gaming rig that I spent weeks picking the "Perfect" parts for and hours assembling.

Fortunately you've been asking a lot of the right questions and I'm sure your brain is starting to hurt in a good way from too much info. Don't panic, you're doing fine. Now it comes down to that Venn diagram of what you need, what you can afford, and what you want. There is some overlap in there hopefully. ?

 

[Nan_wpg]

Not bad at all

It depends on who you ask. Ford VS Toyota. Apple vs Android. For me there's nothing that Victron does that I am willing to pay that extra money for. I work for a living.

MorningStar is a great brand for most things, right up there with Victron other than their AIO's which are really not looking good at all. LFP batteries are really the bee's knees for batteries for 99% of use cases, unfortunately you and I fall into that 1% that makes things a bit more complex.

Ask any electrician who's ever had to work both generation side AND residential and it really is that complicated. The biggest draw to AIO's is that it makes things MUCH less complicated by doing all the work from the SCC, the transfer switch, the inverter, and the AC charger for you in one convenient package.

Much like in the world of PC's, I've made many many PC's buying the exact parts I want and assembling and configuring them myself, but this last PC is an HP because it was cheaper than anything I could build and readily available to walk out the door with. Some tweaks and it handily pwns my old gaming rig that I spent weeks picking the "Perfect" parts for and hours assembling.

Fortunately you've been asking a lot of the right questions and I'm sure your brain is starting to hurt in a good way from too much info. Don't panic, you're doing fine. Now it comes down to that Venn diagram of what you need, what you can afford, and what you want. There is some overlap in there hopefully. ?

Morningstar makes an AIO?

yes my head is hurting big time! Yes in a good way.

the lfp really does seem like the way to go. I think trophy Would be the path. Hook it up and let the battery heat itself from the pv. I also have the option of keeping the battery in the cabin so wood heat will warm things up. (Or family can just run off genny).

I already know I’m not using an inverter charger now that I know how it works.

and I’m really flying blind right now. I have an idea what I’d design (if it were 100% my cabin). The wildcard is the other people using the place.
I can read the wattage but almost everything I’ve “killawatted” was lower than the label.

so I think I’ll need the actual killawatt numbers from the genny. I can average, or use the biggest day and plan from that.

I just like to bounce ideas here. Hope that’s ok.

 

[Rednecktek]

Morningstar makes an AIO?

Yup, but it's pretty bad, especially for such a big name.

yes my head is hurting big time! Yes in a good way.

Good! That means you're learning. ?

the lfp really does seem like the way to go. I think trophy Would be the path. Hook it up and let the battery heat itself from the pv. I also have the option of keeping the battery in the cabin so wood heat will warm things up. (Or family can just run off genny).

It really is the best way to go if you can, and the Trophy really takes a LOT of stress out of the whole affair.

I already know I’m not using an inverter charger now that I know how it works.

They have their place, I just don't think this is it.

and I’m really flying blind right now. I have an idea what I’d design (if it were 100% my cabin). The wildcard is the other people using the place.
I can read the wattage but almost everything I’ve “killawatted” was lower than the label.

Pictures, MSPaint, and Word can make for some pretty good user manuals pretty quickly. I wrote mine for the cabin so simple that not only can my luddite Dad get everything up and going just fine, but so can my sportsball nephews. If you're interested at all I can send you a few chapters from my user manual as an example.

so I think I’ll need the actual killawatt numbers from the genny. I can average, or use the biggest day and plan from that.

As long as the generator can handle the biggest surge and the average is less than about 80% of the rated running watts (NOT the rated Surge watts) you'll be fine. I think it'll surprise you just how small a generator you can get away with.

I just like to bounce ideas here. Hope that’s ok.

Bounce away! I do thought experiments on here all the time too.

 

[Nan_wpg]

Yup, but it's pretty bad, especially for such a big name.

Good! That means you're learning. ?

It really is the best way to go if you can, and the Trophy really takes a LOT of stress out of the whole affair.

They have their place, I just don't think this is it.

Pictures, MSPaint, and Word can make for some pretty good user manuals pretty quickly. I wrote mine for the cabin so simple that not only can my luddite Dad get everything up and going just fine, but so can my sportsball nephews. If you're interested at all I can send you a few chapters from my user manual as an example.

As long as the generator can handle the biggest surge and the average is less than about 80% of the rated running watts (NOT the rated Surge watts) you'll be fine. I think it'll surprise you just how small a generator you can get away with.

Bounce away! I do thought experiments on here all the time too.

I’d love some examples for your user manual!

does Morningstar still make their AIO? What’s it called? I have their Tiny little suresine inverter. I think it’s 300 watts. It’s really nice. Used it,to,power my cpap and charge iPad (off a 12v battery)

 

[Rednecktek]

Krap, disregard. I was thinking MidNite, not Morningstar. My bad.

I sent you a link to my manual for your perusal.

One thing I would highly recommend to make your system more idiot-resistant is to get a shunt battery meter like the Renogy 500a or the Aili Shunt monitor and however many extension cables it takes to mount the screen somewhere obvious that everyone can see easily. Under or over the monitor screen put a label that says something like "IF 25% OR LESS, RUN GENERATOR" and set the battery limit on the EG4 to 10% low voltage cutoff. That buys time to get the generator fired up before everything goes dark on them. Once it's full up, or people are calling it a night, they can shut off the generator and should have enough to make it through the night.

 

[Nan_wpg]

I did have a look at the manual. Very detailed. Thanks so much.

I do have a shunt. I used it woth my Bogart sc203, and tm2030. It was neat to watch the power go into and out of the battery, and to watch the amps go down, and voltage go up when it hit absorb.

jist some thoughts…. I could have the system pre programmed for voltage cut offs. The trophy battery would be set up to self heat.

my brother in law could just show up, and start the genny, then plug a charger into the genny. Once the battery warmed it would charge and he’d just run off the inverter.

if I understand correctly the inverter doesn’t know where the power is coming from. It could be charge controller, or generator. It doesn’t care. In normal operation (once battery is full) the inverter is pulling from the pv right?

ultimately I’d have an all year functioning system with trophy storage. If in the winter (no one uses cabin) and the pv is snow covered, trophy would just hibernate until pv melted, then charge current would heat battery, and back in business.

if BIL came out he’d brush off pv, put charger on battery. Battery would heat/charge, and system would be back to normal.

my first thoughts were to unhook battery for the winter but I think internal heater is good

 

[littleharbor2]

You've probably heard this already but it's best to leave the battery about 50%SOC when going away for any length of time. Basicly cut off charging the morning you are to leave.

 

[Nan_wpg]

Yup, already know that, but that was a concern before I knew about battery heaters. Now I can leave everything hooked up, and the battery will hibernate if not used, and if the pv isn’t covered in snow, the current will start the heater and battery will charge. I can set it up so the battery doesn’t fully charge.

it’s been about 4 years since I was “into solar”. Much has changed.

 

[Rednecktek]

if I understand correctly the inverter doesn’t know where the power is coming from. It could be charge controller, or generator. It doesn’t care. In normal operation (once battery is full) the inverter is pulling from the pv right?

The unit has separate chargers from AC and from PV, it does know where it's coming from, but deciding where to pull the power from is part of its job so it's all automated. Unless you have a huge generator you may end up setting the AC Input Charging rate to slightly lower than factory so as to not overload the generator. The way the units are programmed they have a max current draw limit and if the factory max is 5000w and you plug it into a 3000w generator it'll try to draw all 5000w and really piss off the generator. There are settings in the unit to tell it "No, I only want you to draw 2500w so knock it off mister!" and that'll be part of the setup and install process.

ultimately I’d have an all year functioning system with trophy storage. If in the winter (no one uses cabin) and the pv is snow covered, trophy would just hibernate until pv melted, then charge current would heat battery, and back in business.

The best way to achieve this is to just kill the breaker on the front of the battery when you leave and turn it on when someone shows up as part of the startup process. With the way LFP batteries hold charge if you left in August with the battery at 70% full and came back in January, the battery would be maybe 69% full when you got there. The battery will discharge and power the inverter while it's heating itself up, it just won't allow the generator or the PV to actually charge it until it's up to temp. Having that power draw would lean me towards trying to keep it around 80% full when you leave, not too full that it can damage cells but plenty of power to run the heaters and the load through the night if you show up in winter and the batteries need time and watts to warm themselves up. More window of usability.

if BIL came out he’d brush off pv, put charger on battery. Battery would heat/charge, and system would be back to normal.

Yup, that's the plan. As I mentioned though, if Bil shows up in the evening and the batteries are wife's-feet-cold they're going to need some time to get themselves warmed up before they can start charging up again.

my first thoughts were to unhook battery for the winter but I think internal heater is good

Just kill the breaker. A big switch with an arrow button and a label is much easier for people to figure out than grabbing a socket wrench and playing with wiring.

 

[Nan_wpg]

The unit has separate chargers from AC and from PV, it does know where it's coming from, but deciding where to pull the power from is part of its job so it's all automated. Unless you have a huge generator you may end up setting the AC Input Charging rate to slightly lower than factory so as to not overload the generator. The way the units are programmed they have a max current draw limit and if the factory max is 5000w and you plug it into a 3000w generator it'll try to draw all 5000w and really piss off the generator. There are settings in the unit to tell it "No, I only want you to draw 2500w so knock it off mister!" and that'll be part of the setup and install process.

The best way to achieve this is to just kill the breaker on the front of the battery when you leave and turn it on when someone shows up as part of the startup process. With the way LFP batteries hold charge if you left in August with the battery at 70% full and came back in January, the battery would be maybe 69% full when you got there. The battery will discharge and power the inverter while it's heating itself up, it just won't allow the generator or the PV to actually charge it until it's up to temp. Having that power draw would lean me towards trying to keep it around 80% full when you leave, not too full that it can damage cells but plenty of power to run the heaters and the load through the night if you show up in winter and the batteries need time and watts to warm themselves up. More window of usability.

Yup, that's the plan. As I mentioned though, if Bil shows up in the evening and the batteries are wife's-feet-cold they're going to need some time to get themselves warmed up before they can start charging up again.

Just kill the breaker. A big switch with an arrow button and a label is much easier for people to figure out than grabbing a socket wrench and playing with wiring.

Yes, I understand if charging through unit that the genny powers the charger, and the cabin loads. I’ll,adjust accordingly. (Just watch will review a unit and despite an 80 amp charger the default was 30 amp)

Now I’m confused about trophy… you said kill,breaker, but mention heater working to,allow charge. If I turn the breaker off then no power in or out?? How does that work?

 

[shampeon]

Yes, I understand if charging through unit that the genny powers the charger, and the cabin loads. I’ll,adjust accordingly. (Just watch will review a unit and despite an 80 amp charger the default was 30 amp)

Now I’m confused about trophy… you said kill,breaker, but mention heater working to,allow charge. If I turn the breaker off then no power in or out?? How does that work?

With the breaker off, and battery at 80% SOC it will drop very slowly over the winter months. If someone shows up in winter, they turn the breaker on and now you can use the battery, but can't charge it until the battery gets above freezing. There's enough capacity to start the internal heaters and still use the battery while you e.g. brush off the solar panels or start the generator. Keep some reserve battery for one-off trips in winter so the heaters can kick in.

 

[Nan_wpg]

Why not keep Battery on so that it can heat from charge current, and then controler charge it up?

 

[shampeon]

Mostly because it's unnecessary, if it's not going to be used from button-up until spring.

If people are regularly coming to the cabin throughout the winter, then maybe it makes some sense to leave it active so the battery is always full. Otherwise, it's just on but idle, or discharging to heat the batteries just to replace the capacity that was drained by heating the battery.

 

[Nan_wpg]

My understanding is that trophy uses charge current, not it’s own power to heat themselves up.

only one person goes,to the cabin in the winter. not often. I thought disconnecting and bringing things home,was best. Then I learnt lfp can sit in the cold. Then I learnt they can heat themselves so,they can be charged.

it sounds like I can just leave everything hooked up.

now I just have to wait and see how much power I’ll need. I already know we want starlink, and poE wifi extention to the dock.

 

[Rednecktek]

If it's on and using its heaters it's consuming power. In winter if you don't get enough power generated (snow, clouds, etc) to make up for what is used by the heaters you can drain the battery dead and when you go to use it it'll be dead AND cold and you'll be in the dark.

Leaving it off when not in use preserves the lifespan of the battery and ensures there are watts in the tabk when you go to use it. The heaters will pull from the battery if there's no PV to feed it.

 

[Nan_wpg]

If it's on and using its heaters it's consuming power. In winter if you don't get enough power generated (snow, clouds, etc) to make up for what is used by the heaters you can drain the battery dead and when you go to use it it'll be dead AND cold and you'll be in the dark.

Leaving it off when not in use preserves the lifespan of the battery and ensures there are watts in the tabk when you go to use it. The heaters will pull from the battery if there's no PV to feed it.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

my understanding,is that trophy heaters run off the charge current (pv or genny) and not it’s own power. This is a fail safe. They will not accept charge when cold

this is (was?) the big selling,feature of trophy.

 

[Nan_wpg]

I sent an email to trophy. If I have to disconnect them for the winter I’ll just go with eq4 AIO and equipment battery. Set it and forget it, unhook it for the winter and run genny.

 

[Rednecktek]

My understanding is they would draw off the battery down to the low voltage cutoff if PV wasn't available. Otherwise the heaters would be useless at night.