Hi from Southern Portugal

[Free Spirit]

Hi folks, I've been browsing for a while and now seems a good time to join in as I'm starting work on a new project, a small semi-derelict beach house on the South coast of Portugal. The good news is the whole roof is south facing, and we get good sunlight for more than 9 months of the year

Water filled radiators on the roof to supply hot water from a storage cylinder are easy to source here so will included when the new roof is fitted, if I can find a way to use that stored heat to warm the house at the same time it would be a bonus.

Solar heating and aircon would be ideal if I can find a suitable system, hybrid split systems look like they might work.

I'd like to end up with a setup that provides "free" solar hot water, heating (in winter) and aircon (in summer), all done on a budget and without covering the whole roof in panels. There's no space at ground level to install anything and space indoors is very limited so no indoor water storage tanks etc...

All ideas and suggestions welcome, expect more questions as I think of them

 

[BaronVerde]

Hi,

I will have a similar thing in my new house on La Palma, self sufficient solar power, heating/cooling/ventilation via a heat pump, hot water via a solar collector. I also looked at mini-splits, but they are not the right thing for the climate I am in. Right now I personally concentrate on the solar electric power thing. Will hire a specialist for the heat pump/ventilation and water installation things.

Effective heating needs perfect insulation(!) and airtightness of the house, a ventilation system with recuperation of heat (and cold), and means to transpoert heat from inside out and vice versa, a heat pump. I don't think your local temperature goes below 0°C, probably rarely below 5°, so an air/air heat pump with heatexchangers and a ventilation system may be right, which you can probably power completely from the photovoltaic installation. This would need some prior simple math to estimate if it can work. It is very effective, but the tubeing may cost a little extra. Otoh, a split system needs smaller tubes as well and has those ugly boxes hanging from the wall or ceeling, and I found it in the end more expensive than air/air. Keep in mind, without good insulation and heat recuperation the goal of heating/cooling at reasonable efficiancy may not be possible to achieve.

A solar collector for hot water is a different thing. You have a collector module(maybe two for a large household) and a vessel of appropriate size to hold the water that can sit on top of the collectors. Gravity lets the water circulate if done right. I had such a thing without additional heating! for the past 3 years (they are mandatory here) and only on very few occasions had to shift a hot shower to the afternoon hours. You can also use a different type of heat pump (air/water) to generate hot water for you, but I would assume that it is overkill in your climate zone.

For the fotovolatic installation, if you want to be off-grid you'd have to size the components (panels, chargers, inverters, battery) accordingly. I'll do the solar myself, afterwards I'll call someone to check if that it meets regulations and to do the bureaucrazy.

Heating/ventilation by someone hired, because I have no idea how to size the components and how to distribute them correctly. The architect has planned for a ventilation system that rotates the air slowly thorugh the rooms, avoiding short circuits and stale corners. I (and you probably too) live in an area with high moisture. That needs to to be taken into account in such a setup. Diameters and channelling of the air ducts has an influance on distribution and power consumption of the system, I don't have the time right now to learn all this. I also don't do water tubing and installation myself.

Don't know if that was much help, but at least you're not alone

Cheers from a green island with a black patch
gb

Edit: don't know if you're doing additional construction work, but a large south facing window or a glass covered winter garden does a very good job heating a well insulated house even if it is broken cloudy, saving a lot of energy the house would otherwise have to produce.

 

[WYtreasure]

Hi folks, I've been browsing for a while and now seems a good time to join in as I'm starting work on a new project, a small semi-derelict beach house on the South coast of Portugal. The good news is the whole roof is south facing, and we get good sunlight for more than 9 months of the year

Water filled radiators on the roof to supply hot water from a storage cylinder are easy to source here so will included when the new roof is fitted, if I can find a way to use that stored heat to warm the house at the same time it would be a bonus.

Solar heating and aircon would be ideal if I can find a suitable system, hybrid split systems look like they might work.

I'd like to end up with a setup that provides "free" solar hot water, heating (in winter) and aircon (in summer), all done on a budget and without covering the whole roof in panels. There's no space at ground level to install anything and space indoors is very limited so no indoor water storage tanks etc...

All ideas and suggestions welcome, expect more questions as I think of them

Hello Free Spirit,
How are things progressing?
You may find this thread helpful: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/newbie-from-portugal-building-a-house.37469/

 

[Free Spirit]

Hi @WYtreasure thanks for the link

Progress here has stalled, I was told by one of the first builders who looked at the project that it was acceptable to replace the collapsed roof with a slightly reconfigured roof (including a small patio on the side not visible to the public).
I've spent 4+ months trying to get a builder who is able and willing to do the work, all have made excuses - until one last month explained that the proposed changes are technically illegal unless I get "building approval" first. Very frustrating as I feel I have spent a long time asking the wrong people the wrong questions ... all because of the comments from the first builder.

I'm now trying to find a local architect to give me an idea of what it will cost (time and money) to get a building approval. An architect was recommended to me last week, they want £100 + tax for a meeting just to tell me what they charge ! Rough estimates are £3k / 1 month for the architect, £3k (+ how long?) for a structural engineer, then costs and delays for the council to consider the proposals etc. Predictions are £7k + 6 months before I can get the ok to start any building work - I was hoping the renovations would be nearing completion by now

My other option is I can remove the failed roof and replace like-for-like without needing any building approval, but if I do that I'll always regret not taking the opportunity to add a terrace. It's very frustrating, expect updates when I have any news

 

[mikefitz]

I live part time in South Portugal. Do you actually have a permit ( habitation licence) to live in the dwelling? The approval for anything is time consuming and expensive and all work carried out by a registered builder/electrician and has to be signed off by a professional from the council.
Any roof modification that covers additional area is difficult to get approved.
The term 'beach house' sets alarm bells ringing, many were built illegally.
Sorry to sound so negative.
From start to finish having my small house rebuilt took me 8 years with the council being less than helpful.
Its your architect that's the key. If he/she knows the right people in the council offices things will go well.
good luck

Mike

 

[WYtreasure]

I live part time in South Portugal. Do you actually have a permit ( habitation licence) to live in the dwelling? The approval for anything is time consuming and expensive and all work carried out by a registered builder/electrician and has to be signed off by a professional from the council.
Any roof modification that covers additional area is difficult to get approved.
The term 'beach house' sets alarm bells ringing, many were built illegally.
Sorry to sound so negative.
From start to finish having my small house rebuilt took me 8 years with the council being less than helpful.
Its your architect that's the key. If he/she knows the right people in the council offices things will go well.
good luck

Mike

Thank you Mike,

Anything you have to contribute about improving the quality of life in this area would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Free Spirit]

Thanks to everyone for their input, it is all appreciated

The house now is fully legal and has a habitation licence, me calling it a beach house was maybe confusing. It is a single story house built as a street of 4 similar houses around 1960 (one was converted to a 3 story town house about 20 years ago)
The appeal for me is it is a quiet location 500 metres from a very popular beach, and the price was very good as it has been vacant for many years, it is currently intact but semi-derelict, and the original tile roof on timber frame has severe water damage in places and has started to collapse.
The roof is the main priority as it needs to be replaced (this was known before I bought the place), I was hoping to include a small private terrace as part of the re-roofing work and realised very recently this is not as simple as I had orignally been told.
I'm now looking for a local architect that I have confidence in (one last week says he is trying to spend more of his time surfing and feels not comitted, the latest one is asking £100+vat for a meeting to tell me what they would charge me if they do the work - that feels very expensive just to see their pricelist).

Front showing the collapsed roof (south facing - nice !)
My original plan was to replace this with like-for-like but to raise it slightly (1 ft / 0.5m ?).
A recent suggestion was to install a flat south facing terrace on the left, and raise the section on the right slightly (to line up with the narrow tile roof at the rear). Raising the new tiled section slightly would give space to fit stairs indoors with a door opening out onto the terrace.


The narrow tiled roof to the rear also needs replacing.
I was told this could easily be changed to small terrace, now been told that would need planning permission which adds a lot of costs and delays.


Thanks again for the suggestions, my main priority now is to find out how much (time and money) it will cost to install a terrace when the roof is replaced, then decide if it's worth it. I'll keep you updated

 

[Free Spirit]

Updates as planned, it's shocking how long it's taken to get this to where it's at now.
I love Portugal and the people but the admin, bureaucracy and finding people to do jobs is hard work

The new roof is finished


It's plumbed ready for the water system to be mounted.
Traditional wooded construction from underneath, thick (6" ?) insulation on top - see the blue on the left of the photo, then thin battens to stop the tiles slipping.


Yesterday I got a 200Lt water heating collector, 2 years old, great condition made by Baxi.


My next problem is how to fix the 300kg unit (200Lt capacity = 200kg liquid + 100kg hardware)
The insulation under the tiles is a solid slab, no joists or battens to take the weight of the water system so I guess I need to strip a lot of the roof, fit joists the same height as the insulation (spanning 2 or 4 existing support timbers), cut the insulation to fit in the remaining space, then fit the tank on the tiles??