How to get solar when you can't afford it

[JeepHammer]

As simple as I can put it in a working layman terms... with 30+ years off grid experience and hundreds of installs...

ELECTRIC ENERGY CONSERVATION!

THERE IS NO SOLAR ELECTRIC SYSTEM THAT WILL BEAT DOLLARS INVESTED
in insulation/plugging up air leaks, appliance like well insulated water heaters on timers, well insulated fridges/freezers, finding and eliminating phantom electrical loads, etc.

Dollar for dollar, the energy you DON'T WASTE is energy you DON'T PAY FOR!

Insulation is effective immedatly, last the life of your home, and doesn't take 'Maintance', no future costs, and it's CHEAP/EASY to do. (Reminder: DIY Forum)

Grid-Tied, electric bill DAYLIGHT offset is the COST OF A CHEAP USED CAR.

This pays to run the Air Conditioner on long, sunny summer days. Takes quite a while to break even on the investment on equipment.

Over-productuon is the COST OF A REASONABLE USED CAR.

Still a sunny day thing, but you get useful power even on short winter days.

Over production does have drawbacks, like buyback state that charge a bunch, but pay back 2 cents, or 3 cents per kWh.

If you have net metering, 1 for 1 credits, then it's MUCH more useful/faster payback.

Over production makes sense when you are headed toward batteries. Battery offset the day/night costs, peak rate usage, ect.

Battery/Grid tie systems can be quite the helpful gadget, not only can you offset the more expensive times of the day, but you have emergency backup *IF YOU PICK THE RIGHT INVERTER*

For the cost of a new economy box car with a 3 year warrenty...

EXPANDABLE!
I CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!

Solar is not excluded from business rules: There Is Economy In Scale.

If you leave room for expansion, then you SIMPLY ADD TO THE EXISTING SYSTEM.

You CAN start with a few panels, but get a BIG INVERTER so you can add more panels as energy rates go up... And you can afford more panels.

The inverter will be the single most costly component in the system, go big or replace it every time you want to expand.
Throw money at the inverter if nothing else. Add panels later...

6,000 Watts of panels on a 12,000 Watt inverter? No problem!
12,000 Watts of panels on a 6,000 Watt inverter, BIG COSTLY PROBLEM.

If you get rated/inspected with a 12,000 Watt inverter/service, then NO NEW INSPECTIONS, NO NEW PTO cost/wait time, etc. You simply add panels...

Of you live where blackouts are frequant, get a hybrid inverter that can run in off grid mode, with batteries.

Again, you don't have to buy the batteries immedately, you can add them later as money comes together.

DO NOT buy an inverter that requires propritary batteries!
This is the MOST EXPENSIVE way to do things...
There is HUGE SAVINGS in non-Propritary batteries, and if you don't buy the system and batteries together, there is no guarantee the company will make the propritary batteries for your system at any cost when you are ready for them.

Again, this is expansion room, expanded capabilities, expand production, etc.

Another reason for non-propritary batteries is, some states are LIMITING the times you can use your batteries!
I have no doubt this will become more wide spread...

The idea is, you offsetting/avoiding grid power, energy companies are feeling the effect of 'Guerrilla Solar', becoming less profitable (still WAY profitable, just not enough for the greedy). Non-propritary batteries can't be controlled by 'Connectivity' with the inverter manufacturer that has to follow whatever law someone dreams up...

This is intentional by the inverter manufacturers, propritary system will be controlled, non-propritary batteries can't (yet).

 

[Bob in Tucson]

Bring on the ranters who sit in the dark and have the thermostats at 50 degrees in winter and 85 in summer and only use 600kw a month!!!!

That made me laugh because it's not far off from how I live. I know, pathetic!

 

[Ampster]

some states are LIMITING the times you can use your batteries!

I view it as a fundamental right to generate electricity. If it is a statewide statute, I presume it is in the building code. Can you give an example? As bad as some of the CPUC decisions have recently been in California, I do not see this on the horizon. In fact nationally the IRS relaxed the rule that battery cost could be included for investment tax credit only if the batteries were charged from solar. Now batteries can be charged from the grid and still be eligible for tax credit.

 

[SamDeleted]

My off grid system, done on a shoe string comes out at £1 a watt all told ($1.25usd)

2.5kw solar
15kwh of AGM battery(7.5kwh usable)

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I view it as a fundamental right to generate electricity.

Absolutely.

 

[Crowz]

In the old days I had to crunch numbers to justify spending on the solar setup.

What was I going to make power wise vs what it cost. Would I get to the point I could go offgrid. What to put on what circuits. When to switch to solar or grid based on the sun being out if the batteries were not fully charged. Were the batteries charged. Buy panels vs buying more batteries....

While it was fun to tinker it wasn't really cost effective. Luckily it started as a hobby or I never would of started after looking at the figures.



Moving thru time to today its a whole different animal.

For me it was simple.

1. Buy hybrid inverter and wire it to the mains.

2. Hook to enough panels to meet the hybrid aio's minimum voltage requirement.

3. Put some circuits in a sub panel that runs off the hybrid inverter.

4. Win

Then its just a matter of adding more panels over time till its full or it covers what I want running off the inverter.

Buy batteries after there are enough panels to feed the loads I want on it and can charge batteries.

Things are SOOOO much easier now and SOOO inexpensive now.

 

[JeepHammer]

Not sure where those houses are.
All electric houses use a lot more than that.

Only way you use 1000kw a month (30KW a day) year round Is to use Propane, NG ,Kerosene, Heating oil or wood heat then no AC at all in the summer then maybe 1000kwh month or you live in a constant year round 72 degrees weather.

Maybe if you have a purpose built house with 6 foot thick walls and R-900 insulation.

If its just about electricity usage aspect then ok but I thought fossil fuel was the enemy here?

Bring on the ranters who sit in the dark and have the thermostats at 50 degrees in winter and 85 in summer and only use 600kw a month!!!!
?

Electricity use in homes - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Types and amounts of electricity use in U.S. homes.

www.eia.gov

'Average' 11,000 yearly, 917 monthly, 30.2 daily.

Biggest Consumers (in order),
Air Conditioning 17%
Space Heating 15%
Water Heating 14%
Misslaneous Consumption 13%

So your numbers are pretty close! Most people are WAY off.

CNG (methane) is 'cheaper' than LP (liquidfied petroleum) because of extraction, and transportation (pipelines). That can change in a heartbeat with world market costs.

LPG is directly tied to world petroleum production markets, refineries that process the petroleum production or transportation issues anywhere in the world, and that can shoot up in a heartbeat.

Availability depends entirely on a global network, see Germany/Europe with the NORD Stream pipeline for an example.
Or the uptick in prices when Iran detains tankers...

Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but the sun shines every day here, even when it's cloudy.
That means I produce usable electric energy everyday, without a single rate increase or new tax in 30 years.

I can't speak for anyone else, but 33 straight years of rate increases, increased 'Line Connection' fees, raised taxes...
I tracked current rates in my area, simple spread sheet, my system has paid for itself 5 times over, including a BIG expansnsion/overhaul in 2020.

That would be seriously reduced if the system wasn't self built with cost effective components, but I built every bit of it, and I maintain every bit of it.

I view it as a fundamental right to generate electricity. If it is a statewide statute, I presume it is in the building code. Can you give an example? As bad as some of the CPUC decisions have recently been in California, I do not see this on the horizon. In fact nationally the IRS relaxed the rule that battery cost could be included for investment tax credit only if the batteries were charged from solar. Now batteries can be charged from the grid and still be eligible for tax credit.

Texas is it's own power grid. Eastern grid, western grid, Texas.

We have friends down around Austin (Dripping Springs) that can't use their batteries all winter. Like November to April...

They do have a propritary battery/panel/inverter system. Batteries can be used if the grid fails, but can't be used to offset grid power.

The software update came down from manufacturer, when they called the batteries were no longer offsetting, they were referred to a state utility regulation board ruling that went back to some state law... (don't live in Texas, didn't research it too deep).

We are visiting down there in the fall, I can neither confirm or deny that inverter software that doesn't have the battery limiting might be headed that way and the Wi-Fi dongle might have an 'accident'.

Apparently it's working for others...

There is a boom in off grid systems down there too...

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Average' 11,000 yearly, 917 monthly, 30.2 daily.

That charts also includes Mobile Homes, Townhouses and apartments.

Not sure what size houses they are sampling either.

When I lived in MA, VT, NH most of the houses used Heating Oil, NG, Propane or wood for heat and rarely had central AC. Maybe a window AC in bedroom.

Even the smallest house I lived in ( Here in the south) with LPG heat, water heater and stove/oven we used more than 1000kwh each month.

Current house is 2800sqft and we use anywhere from 50-120kw a day depending on how cold or hot it is.

House was built in 2003 with dense pack insulation in interior and exterior walls and blown in the attic.

I don’t know anyone using 30kw a day here unless you have Some alternative heat / Cool source.

If you are using 30kw a day the you’re one Frugal Person.

 

[SamDeleted]

we use anywhere from 50-120kw

Wow! I guess you're in the states then... ITS AMAZING how much you guys consume , food , power , fuel

At 100kw a day average , 3,000kw a month , that'd cost north of £1,000 ($1,250usd) here in the UK


We were using 20kw a day & I thought that was a lot , so cut down to below 12kw a day ... 1200 square foot house , 5 people

 

[SamDeleted]

£1,000 ($1,250usd)

Or £12000 a year , that's half the time UKs average full-time wage

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Wow! I guess you're in the states then... ITS AMAZING how much you guys consume , food , power , fuel

What is your heat source? I’m assuming you don’t have AC and it’s doesn’t get to 95 degrees with 85% Humidity 4 months out of the year either.

It’s not like we have the doors open and trying to heat and cool outdoors either.

That’s quite a Stereotype you got there Food, Fuel?

I don’t eat anymore than you do and I also can’t ride a train everywhere I go.

Not to mention the US is about 40 times the land mass of the entire UK and everything is based upon Car transport.

Didn’t make the infrastructure just have to live here.

At 100kw a day average , 3,000kw a month , that'd cost north of £1,000 ($1,250usd) here in the UK

3000 Kw is only in the coldest month December not every month.
It’s $450 for 3000kw.

We were using 20kw a day & I thought that was a lot , so cut down to below 12kw a day ... 1200 square foot house , 5 people

That’s your choice to live in a 1200sqft home with 5 people.

Or £12000 a year , that's half the time UKs average full-time wage

Maybe you should ask for a raise.

 

[BuffaloTrace]

So far I've paid just under .20 cents kwh in panels alone for a total of 6.5kwh. Some new, some barely used, and some used for 8 years on a roof). 5kw of those panels will be used on a household system, the other 800 is being used for various shed loads and testing and a few extras that don't fit my array design, but will most likely be used, or sold off for other small projects (rv/shed/?)
All were bought locally within 20 miles, and some much closer and even delivered. All this at under .20 cents kwh for panels alone.

Much of the other equipment can be had used or cheaper than you might think and locally sourced. I got charge controllers from a local "van life" that were used for 1 year at half the cost new....
As with all things, if you want it new and want it now, even with DIY the costs add up quick to the point that even at high grid power, the payoff can be a decade. If one is thrifty, very patient, a little creative, and is diy, one can easily cut that down to a few years.

All depends on utility company charges. In some areas you have low cost utility, and higher cost pv, more rare used stuff, where as other places you have high cost utility but more abundance of "parts" as is the case for me. Worst case scenario is high cost utility out in the sticks making it difficult to source parts used or new.

 

[Hedges]

Biggest Consumers (in order),
Air Conditioning 17%
Space Heating 15%
Water Heating 14%
Misslaneous Consumption 13%

Water heating nearly as much as space heating and and air conditioning?

Some years back (before the Ukraine spike in West Coast natural gas prices), I observed my gas bill for water heater and stove was $8/month. If I heated the house with gas, $80/month, but I was using PV credits for heating. One month using electric heat I used up my surplus PV generation credit, bought $750 in electricity for heating.

I think the only way water heating is about the same as space heating or air conditioning would be mild climate with almost no heating or cooling.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

think the only way water heating is about the same as space heating or air conditioning would be mild climate with almost no heating or cooling.

Exactly.

 

[BuffaloTrace]

In more extreme climates (ac/heat required) and aside the use of wood fuel or swamp coolers (evaporative cooling which doesn't work in humid climates) I just don't see how the average residential lot and roofspace would allow netzero.

I summed it up for my roof top on the property all sw or se facing roofs would allow me to either have the house hold completely off grid even in worst case sun scenarios, but its a mild climate.

That also doesn't leave room for any electrically driven conveyance or vehicle. If I kept natural gas heating appliances, than I'd have enough left over for electric car with current travel habits no problem. But that's with maybe 1200sq ft of total usable roof space with SW and SE orientations and calculated.

True net zero for the household including conveyance will be near impossible for the majority of people.

 

[JeepHammer]

Water heating nearly as much as space heating and and air conditioning?

Some years back (before the Ukraine spike in West Coast natural gas prices), I observed my gas bill for water heater and stove was $8/month. If I heated the house with gas, $80/month, but I was using PV credits for heating. One month using electric heat I used up my surplus PV generation credit, bought $750 in electricity for heating.

I think the only way water heating is about the same as space heating or air conditioning would be mild climate with almost no heating or cooling.

See source material for AVERAGES in the U.S.

YOUR particular circumstance could very well be different.
YOUR mileage may vary...

'West Coast, try Hawaii.
50 cents kWh and over $6 gallon for gasoline when we were there last...
Solar Electric and EVs make a crap load of sense really quickly.

Solar Thermal (hot water) is a very good decision. If you look at a the rooftops of a lot of countries, you see solar hot water heaters on every rooftop. Just not in the U.S.

I spent 5 years watching my land, researching rhe different options for heating, cooling, energy needs, etc.

I have 15 foot tall glass south facing for passive solar. Passive means no maintance and no complicated control system, although the cost was high. Thermal pane, inert gass charged with low E coating wasn't cheap...

The long runs of plastic tubing to heat bank incoming air was dirt cheap, literally dirt changes the incoming air temp, humidifies/dehumidifies, and cost zero extra dollars to operate.

Solar hot water, evacuated (vacuum) tubes were the best thing I backed into. Pre-heats water to bath temp without external energy, pumped through radiant floor heat tubes reduces heating bills to nearly zero.

Now, poured concrete was expensive, sealing the home against water wasn't cheap, but the earth sheltering means I have a crazy high insulation rating, plus the added benifit of earth temp regulation.

The idea was to be able to support the home/our wants/NEEDS on locally produced energy.

Burning wood PELLETS and corn in the boiler, instead of propane, we still get the lumber, only burn the sawdust compressed into pellets. Recycle into second life.

We have to screen out undersize corn kernels to get highest price for the corn, the boiler doesn't care, when crakcked the livestock doesn't care, when ground humans don't care the kernels were under size.

I can take a Marine shower in 30 to 60 seconds. My wife likes a tub full of hot water, but it doesn't have to be 180°F. Either way the solar hot water does the job without the boiler consuming fuel.

So it needs to be hotter for dish washer, etc. So SOME fuel consumed...

I can't sell it as a home game, not for everyone due to a number of factors, but this kind of thing IS possible, and can be scaled up pretty easily.

 

[Bob in Tucson]

I just don't see how the average residential lot and roofspace would allow netzero.

Agreed, in part because we're dealing with the legacy of residential structures that were not built to maximize energy efficiency. I imagine that if most members here were building new, they would reach net zero even on a small lot. Not so much for having a giant PV array but for appreciating the long-term value of building for energy efficiency.

 

[Ampster]

We have friends down around Austin (Dripping Springs) that can't use their batteries all winter. Like November to April...

I am not too worried about that trend taking hold in California..That would be inconsistent with CEC policy which is subsidizing batteries with SGIP funds.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

but the earth sheltering means I have a crazy high insulation rating, plus the added benifit of earth temp regulation.

If you can get your wife to live a buried house you are doing better than most of us.

I wanted a Monolithic Dome home but no that would be ugly.

 

[SamDeleted]

Didn’t make the infrastructure just have to live here.

I didn't mean it personally mate, its just a fact, Americans consumes more resources per person than any other country in the world by far.

For instance, your cars don't do the same MPG, you drive around in big gas guzzling 6.0l v8s , Humvees & trucks doing gallons to the mile

while we're in little 1 litre compacts lol .. doing 60/70mpg

Look at all the red meat you eat. most countries don't eat steak 5 times a week.

The fattest major country in the world , and yet look at the food waste, what is it 40% of all food in the states goes to waste? While other people (even americans) go hungry, crazy



I think part of it is just how rich America is , you've got a huge economy, you can afford a luxury lifestyle, and you've come to expect it!


Anyway I'm not saying Europe's perfect , far from , but it's interesting to look at the difference