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I Can't Afford So-Called "Tier 1" Equipment. What's Good at Tier 2?

In my mind I feel the SMA, Victron, Schneider, would fall into the Tier One category, I have to wonder if there is a consensus here on what makes/models are Tier One. Are Sol-Ark/Deye Tier One? all models or just some models? Seems like a we don't have a clear definition really, more of a general application - "high quality, high reliability, excellent technical supported product lines" = Tier One.
Then what is Tier Two ? I like to think of the Voltronics lines such as Growatt, MPP etc as making up this group. Lower cost, but reasonable reliability, limited tech support. Maybe I am kidding myself.
Does the vast group of clones of the above (China copies, grandchildren of Tier Two) make up the Tier Three group? (lowest cost, zero tech support).

The OP asked what are good Tier Two equipment options (but didn't reply to the questions on their application unfortunately) to answer the OP, don't we need to have a method to determine /agree what equipment would fall into each Tier?
 
OffGridForGood said:
In my mind I feel the SMA, Victron, Schneider, would fall into the Tier One category, I have to wonder if there is a consensus here on what makes/models are Tier One. Are Sol-Ark/Deye Tier One? all models or just some models? Seems like a we don't have a clear definition really, more of a general application - "high quality, high reliability, excellent technical supported product lines" = Tier One.
Then what is Tier Two ? I like to think of the Voltronics lines such as Growatt, MPP etc as making up this group. Lower cost, but reasonable reliability, limited tech support. Maybe I am kidding myself.
Does the vast group of clones of the above (China copies, grandchildren of Tier Two) make up the Tier Three group? (lowest cost, zero tech support).

The OP asked what are good Tier Two equipment options (but didn't reply to the questions on their application unfortunately) to answer the OP, don't we need to have a method to determine /agree what equipment would fall into each Tier?
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I don't know that there's any established criteria but it would be nice to develop something. The problem might be that everyone has different criteria. Length of time in production along with failure rate might be one. Established technology used, as in HF vs LF? That seems to be changing. At the end of the day it seems like price is one of the most considered factors - if it's expensive it must be better. I don't know that I would agree with that completely, but there it is. I learned many decades ago to charge more for my services and that doing so got me more business, up to a point. It was the perception that was important I suppose, along with the thinking that if I don't value my time highly no one else will. It would make an interesting poll - ranking well known brands into tiers.
 
OffGridForGood said:
In my mind I feel the SMA, Victron, Schneider, would fall into the Tier One category, I have to wonder if there is a consensus here on what makes/models are Tier One. Are Sol-Ark/Deye Tier One? all models or just some models? Seems like a we don't have a clear definition really, more of a general application - "high quality, high reliability, excellent technical supported product lines" = Tier One.
Then what is Tier Two ? I like to think of the Voltronics lines such as Growatt, MPP etc as making up this group. Lower cost, but reasonable reliability, limited tech support. Maybe I am kidding myself.
Does the vast group of clones of the above (China copies, grandchildren of Tier Two) make up the Tier Three group? (lowest cost, zero tech support).

The OP asked what are good Tier Two equipment options (but didn't reply to the questions on their application unfortunately) to answer the OP, don't we need to have a method to determine /agree what equipment would fall into each Tier?
Click to expand...
If it is not UL (or similar and accepted testing labs for code compliance) listed it is not Tier One in my view point. Trying to establish a reliability grade is hard to do without the benefit of hindsight over a piece of equipment's life. We all know of expensive but crappy things that have been marketed.

There is no Tier 2.
 
Mattb4 said:
If it is not UL (or similar and accepted testing labs for code compliance) listed it is not Tier One in my view point. Trying to establish a reliability grade is hard to do without the benefit of hindsight over a piece of equipment's life. We all know of expensive but crappy things that have been marketed.

There is no Tier 2.
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I like the UL (tested) criteria - especially since this is objective.
If there is no Tier 2, then everything is Tier 1? this statement seems inconsistent with the first. Maybe you mean there is only Tier One and junk?
I can see the difficulties in determining just "What" constitutes Tier One, but I also see value in classification. Starting out this was quite confusing and perhaps more so lately with so many makes/models/clones/etc

Another objective measure would be efficiency. The best models certainly seem to share very high efficiency and low stand-by current.
Can we think of other objective measures?
 
OffGridForGood said:
I like the UL (tested) criteria - especially since this is objective.
If there is no Tier 2, then everything is Tier 1? this statement seems inconsistent with the first. Maybe you mean there is only Tier One and junk?
I can see the difficulties in determining just "What" constitutes Tier One, but I also see value in classification. Starting out this was quite confusing and perhaps more so lately with so many makes/models/clones/etc

Another objective measure would be efficiency. The best models certainly seem to share very high efficiency and low stand-by current.
Can we think of other objective measures?
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Saying something is junk because it is not UL listed is a incorrect view of things. There can be a range of quality in the Tier None products. Victron sells some non UL listed components. It however has a good reputation for reliability and engineering standards.
 
Hedges said:
But you have to consider batteries - if using closed-loop communication, only some choices that talk to SMA. With EG4, their own batteries should talk.
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The EG4 LL batteries have closed loop protocols with SMA and you can achieve closed-loop with the EG4 communication hub in conjunction with the Lifepower4 batteries.
 
Mattb4 said:
Saying something is junk because it is not UL listed is a incorrect view of things. There can be a range of quality in the Tier None products. Victron sells some non UL listed components. It however has a good reputation for reliability and engineering standards.
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Being UL listed doesn't necessarily mean it's not junk either. Years ago I got a deal on some outlets and light switches. They were UL listed but most definitely junk.
 
EastTexCowboy said:
Being UL listed doesn't necessarily mean it's not junk either. Years ago I got a deal on some outlets and light switches. They were UL listed but most definitely junk.
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I agree 100%. But trying to establish a rating criteria for solar equipment such as calling it Tier 1 would at minimum need it to pass permit requirements.

ETA: I don't know what happened to the OP but if he needs a permit he would have to be able to afford Tier 1 equipment.
 
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I can imagine a plot with cost per kW on one axis, and (confirmed) efficiency along the other; plot all the inverters on the graph from lowest cost and lowest efficiency to highest cost and (likely) highest efficiency.
Use two colours for the plot, UL 1741 listed in one colour and non in the other. Does this start to demystify the the dizzing array of Inverters offered into a range of options that people could use to narrow their search ?
 
Perhaps start by focusing on taking a few critical or modest / common loads largely off grid or hybridized.

For example the refrigerator, furnace, internet, computers, TV, maybe a couple of lights. Set it up so that they are powered - to the extent possible - off grid / 24 / 7 by your system.

The grid is perfect for running large inductive loads like air conditioning - so just don't bother with those.
 
42OhmsPA said:
Clarity / correction
TP6048 = LVX6048 = eg4 6k
SP6548 = LV6548 = eg4 6.5k

Edit - Voltronic is the mother to all the stepchildren above.
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The Sun Power version SP6548 has some slightly different specs than the LV6548
 
For me, Tier one would have at least a ten year proven track record (more would be better) and meet all UL listed requirements to be installed legally.
 
timselectric said:
For me, Tier one would have at least a ten year proven track record (more would be better) and meet all UL listed requirements to be installed legally.
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I agree we need a way to capture the quality, however a ten year track record would mean a new (promising) unit like the EG 18pv 12K inverter (which is UL) would be excluded from the list. Perhaps unfairly.
Maybe the underlying company track record - this was developed by Luxpower it appears from comments on the forum.
Could we use warranty-period as a proxy for quality, a company committed to a long warranty period would only do so after extensive testing.
 
OffGridForGood said:
I agree we need a way to capture the quality, however a ten year track record would mean a new (promising) unit like the EG 18pv 12K inverter (which is UL) would be excluded from the list. Perhaps unfairly.
Maybe the underlying company track record - this was developed by Luxpower it appears from comments on the forum.
Could we use warranty-period as a proxy for quality, a company committed to a long warranty period would only do so after extensive testing.
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Proven track record is the only way to know for sure.
Warranty doesn't mean anything, unless it has been Proven to be valuable.
 
Brett V said:
I'm satisfied with my Growatt SPF 6k AIO. Some of the shortcomings it had were solved by putting in a Solar assist to manage it.
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I have 24 volt versions on the wall and they are working great. Solar assistant does a great job of adding the missing pieces that
is not in the cloud or on them. I am now running a 3 ton AC off grid with the rest of the house.
 
I don't know I want to only buy ten-year-old technology in this rapidly evolving industry. but I see your point. A warranty is only as good as the company behind it.
I wonder too about some models where the forum appears to have caught a change mid-production. This could happen to any make or model, a few years into production they change some parts (to cut costs say) reports from the earlier version of the model all look good, but don't reflect the changed condition and reliability of the currently produced model.
 
timselectric said:
I'm not saying that you should only buy Tier one products. (I own no "Tier one" solar equipment) I'm just saying what I would consider Tier one.
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I have no such equipment either, but am considering future upgrades. {yes I am tempted by the EG4 18k-pv}
In 12kW output options, at the time I got started, the cost difference of 'Tier One' over equipment that appeared from reviews by Will and others to be perfectly functional, was just too much. If the MPP's had not worked out, the cost was not all that much anyway. Meanwhile it seemed clear from the beginning that the tech was still in the early stages and better offerings would be available within a few years or so, maybe less. So low cost to get started won out. Meanwhile I bought the PV panels new, so I don't need to climb up on a roof during the next twenty years. LOL.
 
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OffGridForGood said:
I have no such equipment either, but am considering future upgrades. {yes I am tempted by the EG4 18k-pv}
In 12kW output options, at the time I got started, the cost difference of 'Tier One' over equipment that appeared from reviews by Will and others to be perfectly functional, was just too much. If the MPP's had not worked out, the cost was not all that much anyway. Meanwhile it seemed clear from the beginning that the tech was still in the early stages and better offerings would be available withing a few years or so, maybe less. So low cost to get started won out. Meanwhile I bought the PV panels new, so I don't need to climb up on a roof during the next twenty years. LOL.
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Higher Tier wasn't important to me. Because it comes at a higher Tier price.
Reliability and price for value , was.
Research is cheap. So, I devoted a lot of time on it.
 
Reliability and price for value,
...and having EIGHT identical inverters...just in case! (I wish I had this level of redundancy!)
LOL
I agree,
I think the MPP's (Voltronic by another name) were a good compromise, and if the only option for 12kW output were $8,000 units like the Sol-Ark, I wouldn't be where I am with the system today. For 8-grand, I could have 6 MPP's and put 4 on a shelf in a farady cage.
 
OffGridForGood said:
Reliability and price for value,
...and having EIGHT identical inverters...just in case! (I wish I had this level of redundancy!)
LOL
I agree,
I think the MPP's (Voltronic by another name) were a good compromise, and if the only option for 12kW output were $8,000 units like the Sol-Ark, I wouldn't be where I am with the system today. For 8-grand, I could have 6 MPP's and put 4 on a shelf in a farady cage.
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Or better yet, eight of the EG4 18k! You could probably talk James into a deal where you buy seven and get one free!
 
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