Information Overload - Where do I start?:)

[Modular Hippo]

The idea of the belts acting as a damper on a prop strike is not something I thought of, that's a great point!

I've got my Kelly controller in hand now, and waiting for the motor to arrive next!

Madi

Hmmm.... been recommended the EZ-B481000 (EZKkontrol) from Golden Motor, is 'Kelly' a brand/model and if so what was your reasoning behind picking that one. Worried now that I said yes to something which maybe was not the best controller.

 

[Modular Hippo]

I used one of their 3kw air cooled motors for a ATV and it worked quite well.

If you have a 48v battery bank you would be using almost 500 amps to push that to full.

It can use up to 96v but that would mean your bank would have to be configured as such or combine 2 48v banks somehow.

Not to mention finding a controller to push that many amps continuously.

Thank you - Happy to hear ATV worked as planned I have settled on 48V, as you say finding controller and other components for a 96V system would be tricky and costly (especially as I already have started of with a 48V design)

 

[Modular Hippo]

In my case, the shaft will be held in place by a pair of thrust bearings connected to the hull. There will be two pullies on the shaft, with belts connecting the two motors (one belt per motor). So a drive saver wouldn't work in my case, but as Hippo suggested, the belts themselves should play the same role. This will also totally isolate the prop and shaft from the boat's electrical system (though I may bond the shaft intentionally, still need to decide on the new wiring plan).

Just sharing my work around this as something I am doing might be of use or just spark ideas My boat (although not complete yet) is designed for a combustion engine where the shaft goes directly to the gearbox. To save the gear-box/engine on accidental impact there is a plate that cater for an Aqua-drive that should reduce vibration transfer to hull (I also guess that the Aqua-drive will assist with discrepancies in alignment of prop shaft and motor). As I am going for a similar setup as Digimer where the shaft is not directly connected to the motors I might be 'overkill' but think I will stick to design anyways.

 

[Modular Hippo]

If you are using timing belts, be very careful to never let them get too loose so that the belt can climb out of the drive cog. Some belts are so strong that they don’t break but something else does. If a Harley with a Gates Polychain belt gets too loose and climbs it’ll rip the final drive right out of the gearbox or damage the rear axle…..but the belt will be just fine. Multi V belts can slip without damage with sudden, momentary loads. Different belts have different efficiencies so if you’re designing you got to do research.

Hi Skypower - Very good points, thank you mentioning this as something I also have had on my mind. I have seen processional 'Toothed belts' solutions that operate without an active belt tension functionality. I guess that if the pulley and teeth have a good match then hopefully just something you need to service at set internals as long as tensed correctly at installation. There are other things I have thought about and that is the difference in friction between none-Toothed belt solution and Toothed belt solution and if the difference is large enough to pay attention to. I guess it is either a none-Toothed solution with an active tensing solution attached (spring loaded wheel or similar), or a good Toothed solution without. As you say, will need careful considerations

 

[Skypower]

One other thing: Timing belts can whine at speed. At what speed, I don’t know so have to research. I do know a 1” wide at 6k rpm will dive me crazy, it’s the air popping out of the pulley grooves. Multi groove are silent…. Unless they are slipping.

 

[Modular Hippo]

The idea of the belts acting as a damper on a prop strike is not something I thought of, that's a great point!

I've got my Kelly controller in hand now, and waiting for the motor to arrive next!

Madi

May the fun begin - Order placed for motor number one (Golden Motors). Motor, Controller, and some components for liquid cooling (not sure if they are the best but were affordable enough to take a chance).

 

[Skypower]

May the fun begin - Order placed for motor number one (Golden Motors). Motor, Controller, and some components for liquid cooling (not sure if they are the best but were affordable enough to take a chance).

Cool!
It’s fun to experiment with different components. You never always know what will corrode and some things did that shouldn’t have. I’ve had many happy accidents, but always had a fallback plan and for the what if’s. I always carried a response kit for leaks and flooding. It had a selection of hose clamps, mechanics wire, self tapping screws & driver, medium soft rubber square assortments, underwater sealants(works submerged) underwater epoxy putty, wood and foam tapered plugs. It was used many times but not on my own boat. A water alarm is mandatory! One primary that reports to the helm. Also it’s important know about it as early as possible so it’s easier to find the source. Just buy a 5 pack of water leak alarms from Amazon and place them throughout low in the hull where bilge water should never be. To reduce bilge water, use GTU Gore packing in the stuffing box. Learn the proper way to cut and stagger the seals. You may actually find it difficult adjust the nut to get the desired 1 to 2 drips per minute while underway. As long as the box or shaft doesn’t get warm, don’t worry about it being reduced to just weeping. Do “burp” the box after a haul out to get the air out of the shaft log, it does need water to lubricate. I don’t recommend “dripless” shaft seals, however if you already have one, have it inspected and make sure it’s in perfect condition. If it fails, it is catastrophic. You will need response kit containing a pipe wrench to stop the prop shaft from windmilling, a passenger car inner tube cut for a long wide strip of rubber and a roll of mechanics wire to staunch the flow by wrapping around the shaft/gland. For any boat, have at least two manual/automatic controled bilge pumps, each one appropriate for the size boat. Those things are the most unreliable devices I’ve ever seen so have two. Don’t mean to scare you, however if you’re ready for it, it’ll probably never happen.

 

[digimer]

If you are using timing belts, be very careful to never let them get too loose so that the belt can climb out of the drive cog. Some belts are so strong that they don’t break but something else does. If a Harley with a Gates Polychain belt gets too loose and climbs it’ll rip the final drive right out of the gearbox or damage the rear axle…..but the belt will be just fine. Multi V belts can slip without damage with sudden, momentary loads. Different belts have different efficiencies so if you’re designing you got to do research.

Noted! I've not decided on what belt to use yet, but I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!

 

[digimer]

Hmmm.... been recommended the EZ-B481000 (EZKkontrol) from Golden Motor, is 'Kelly' a brand/model and if so what was your reasoning behind picking that one. Worried now that I said yes to something which maybe was not the best controller.

The documentation for the Kelly had detailed pinouts, and my questions to Kelly's email got useful answers. That's the biggest reason I chose them. A little more detail; They seem to do decent regen, and had a water-cooled option. Generally googling around seems to show the Kelly's are better built, but that's not something I can say super strongly myself (yet).

 

[digimer]

Just sharing my work around this as something I am doing might be of use or just spark ideas My boat (although not complete yet) is designed for a combustion engine where the shaft goes directly to the gearbox. To save the gear-box/engine on accidental impact there is a plate that cater for an Aqua-drive that should reduce vibration transfer to hull (I also guess that the Aqua-drive will assist with discrepancies in alignment of prop shaft and motor). As I am going for a similar setup as Digimer where the shaft is not directly connected to the motors I might be 'overkill' but think I will stick to design anyways.
View attachment 169868

In my case, the prop shaft ends in a coupler on a V-drive. I want to have to pullies forward of the thrust bearings so that I can swap belts without dismounting the prop shaft, so the solution I need to come up with is, I think, going to be a little unique for my setup.

 

[digimer]

May the fun begin - Order placed for motor number one (Golden Motors). Motor, Controller, and some components for liquid cooling (not sure if they are the best but were affordable enough to take a chance).

Woohoo!! I'm still waiting for my motor to arrive, but the controller is here already. I didn't get a throttle or any other controls, so it'll take me longer to get the motor spinning for the first time. Gonna need a contactor, too, come to think of it...

 

[Modular Hippo]

Cool!
It’s fun to experiment with different components. You never always know what will corrode and some things did that shouldn’t have. I’ve had many happy accidents, but always had a fallback plan and for the what if’s. I always carried a response kit for leaks and flooding. It had a selection of hose clamps, mechanics wire, self tapping screws & driver, medium soft rubber square assortments, underwater sealants(works submerged) underwater epoxy putty, wood and foam tapered plugs. It was used many times but not on my own boat. A water alarm is mandatory! One primary that reports to the helm. Also it’s important know about it as early as possible so it’s easier to find the source. Just buy a 5 pack of water leak alarms from Amazon and place them throughout low in the hull where bilge water should never be. To reduce bilge water, use GTU Gore packing in the stuffing box. Learn the proper way to cut and stagger the seals. You may actually find it difficult adjust the nut to get the desired 1 to 2 drips per minute while underway. As long as the box or shaft doesn’t get warm, don’t worry about it being reduced to just weeping. Do “burp” the box after a haul out to get the air out of the shaft log, it does need water to lubricate. I don’t recommend “dripless” shaft seals, however if you already have one, have it inspected and make sure it’s in perfect condition. If it fails, it is catastrophic. You will need response kit containing a pipe wrench to stop the prop shaft from windmilling, a passenger car inner tube cut for a long wide strip of rubber and a roll of mechanics wire to staunch the flow by wrapping around the shaft/gland. For any boat, have at least two manual/automatic controled bilge pumps, each one appropriate for the size boat. Those things are the most unreliable devices I’ve ever seen so have two. Don’t mean to scare you, however if you’re ready for it, it’ll probably

Allot of good advise in this one, will definitely come back to it and work out my own little repair tool/material kit when I actually come to sail the boat, ha ha

 

[Modular Hippo]

In my case, the prop shaft ends in a coupler on a V-drive. I want to have to pullies forward of the thrust bearings so that I can swap belts without dismounting the prop shaft, so the solution I need to come up with is, I think, going to be a little unique for my setup.


View attachment 170814

Wow - not sure what is preferred, designing from scratch or modifying existing setup like you do. I guess you get allot for free when working with existing parts and maybe sometimes limitations, in a weird way, makes it easier to make decisions in how to move forward. I envy you in the sense that you will have a full combustion engine experience and after the swap the electric propulsion experience for the same vessel as will give you a great base for comparison. As soon as I have my motor I will start my design and looking forward to share ideas.

 

[Modular Hippo]

The documentation for the Kelly had detailed pinouts, and my questions to Kelly's email got useful answers. That's the biggest reason I chose them. A little more detail; They seem to do decent regen, and had a water-cooled option. Generally googling around seems to show the Kelly's are better built, but that's not something I can say super strongly myself (yet).

Checked their page out and must agree, jut by looking at images you get a more 'solid' feel in relation to both housing and ports when looking at the Kelly in comparison:


Fingers crossed that both units will be fit for purpose

 

[digimer]

Wow - not sure what is preferred, designing from scratch or modifying existing setup like you do. I guess you get allot for free when working with existing parts and maybe sometimes limitations, in a weird way, makes it easier to make decisions in how to move forward. I envy you in the sense that you will have a full combustion engine experience and after the swap the electric propulsion experience for the same vessel as will give you a great base for comparison. As soon as I have my motor I will start my design and looking forward to share ideas.

I'm planning to get a new prop shaft and prop, the bigger cost is labour, so trying to save a >40yo 1-1/8th shaft seems penny-wise, pound foolish.

The 1400km trip home, mostly under diesel, was a hell of an experience, but it only redoubled my desire to convert. It's going to be quite the day when she moves under angry pixies for the first time!

 

[digimer]

Checked their page out and must agree, jut by looking at images you get a more 'solid' feel in relation to both housing and ports when looking at the Kelly in comparison:

View attachment 171469
Fingers crossed that both units will be fit for purpose

There's pros and cons to most all options, and rarely a "wrong" answer. Will be fun to compare notes though.

 

[Modular Hippo]

I'm planning to get a new prop shaft and prop, the bigger cost is labour, so trying to save a >40yo 1-1/8th shaft seems penny-wise, pound foolish.

The 1400km trip home, mostly under diesel, was a hell of an experience, but it only redoubled my desire to convert. It's going to be quite the day when she moves under angry pixies for the first time!

Jezz - 1400 km, that is a trip and a half. Is the main reason for changing the shaft/prop the dimensions or condition of them? I have seen props really old but in great nick (if made of copper).

 

[digimer]

Jezz - 1400 km, that is a trip and a half. Is the main reason for changing the shaft/prop the dimensions or condition of them? I have seen props really old but in great nick (if made of copper).

There's some wear around the cutlass bearing, and there's a hole drilled where a bolt goes through the v-drive coupler and acts like a thrust bearing. The new prop is unlikely to be the same angle/thread as the old prop, too. So given all that, starting fresh seems ideal. Also, the new prop is 17" vs 13" I have now, and it's designed for electric drive, and can do regen.

 

[Modular Hippo]

Hope project is

There's some wear around the cutlass bearing, and there's a hole drilled where a bolt goes through the v-drive coupler and acts like a thrust bearing. The new prop is unlikely to be the same angle/thread as the old prop, too. So given all that, starting fresh seems ideal. Also, the new prop is 17" vs 13" I have now, and it's designed for electric drive, and can do regen.

Hope building/project is going well. Finally received the first motor: [HPM10KL , 10KW BLDC Motor] , Liquid cooling , 48V and controller: [EZ-B481000 , EZKkontrol PMSM Controller with wiring harness , 48V1000A]. I have started to design the dual-motor housing. I am sure you have your own ideas around motor housing but just in case you can reuse parts of the designs I have done I will post .dxf files here of some of the 2D parts I am creating in QCAD (for laser cutting). I have started with the adapter rings that will be attached to the motor and later have 4 x M6 sliding pins to be used for belt tensioning (they are the M5 holes you can see). Left to do after that is to design rear plate, front plate, feet and side binders. - spoke to early, the forum does not allow upload of .dxf file so if you can do with the file then let me know and I will use drop box to get file to you. Thanks / Modular Hippo

 

[Modular Hippo]

Forgot t mention, cutting these in: Stainless A4 316 (thickness 10mm).

 

[Skypower]

Have you used a calculator for your hull, and power?

Vicprop - Prop calculator for Displacement and semi-displacement hulls

Vicprop, marine propeller specialists.

vicprop.com

These are surprisingly accurate and easy

 

[Modular Hippo]

Have you used a calculator for your hull, and power?

Vicprop - Prop calculator for Displacement and semi-displacement hulls

Vicprop, marine propeller specialists.

vicprop.com

These are surprisingly accurate and easy

Wow - that is such a useful tool, big thank you as really did not know where to start on tat one

 

[Modular Hippo]

There's some wear around the cutlass bearing, and there's a hole drilled where a bolt goes through the v-drive coupler and acts like a thrust bearing. The new prop is unlikely to be the same angle/thread as the old prop, too. So given all that, starting fresh seems ideal. Also, the new prop is 17" vs 13" I have now, and it's designed for electric drive, and can do regen.

Hib Digimer, hope Christmas have been good and a Happy 2024 in advance!! Meant to ask you what propeller you went for, not had a chance to research this part so thought your choice was a good starting point - I have just ordered the pulleys for the motors and went for a Ratio: 1 : 1.3 (Example: Small Top does 10 RPM and as a result the larger bottom will do 7.8 RPM.). I wish I could back this up with a really good reason why went for 1 : 1.3 but the truth is that I took a middle road between some of the professional solutions I have come across and 'The Neds' setup where he is running against a direct drive (no gearing at all). I guess I will find out if I need to change this down the line, at least it will get me of the ground. Happy 2024!! // Modular Hippo

 

[digimer]

Hib Digimer, hope Christmas have been good and a Happy 2024 in advance!! Meant to ask you what propeller you went for, not had a chance to research this part so thought your choice was a good starting point - I have just ordered the pulleys for the motors and went for a Ratio: 1 : 1.3 (Example: Small Top does 10 RPM and as a result the larger bottom will do 7.8 RPM.). I wish I could back this up with a really good reason why went for 1 : 1.3 but the truth is that I took a middle road between some of the professional solutions I have come across and 'The Neds' setup where he is running against a direct drive (no gearing at all). I guess I will find out if I need to change this down the line, at least it will get me of the ground. Happy 2024!! // Modular Hippo

Happy new year!

I've not ordered it yet, but I am planning on getting the Brunton Autoprop Eco*Star 430mm (~17") prop. The max RPM is 1050, so looking at the motor's unloaded RPM of ~4000, I'll be looking at a 4:1 reduction. Of course, this might be too much, once loaded, but I'd rather start too slow. Once I'm in the water, I can see if the RPM is in fact too slow, and adust the gear ration easily enough. Given the cost of this prop, I am very very reluctant to take chances with cavitation chewing it up like swiss cheese.

Madi

 

[Modular Hippo]

Happy new year!

I've not ordered it yet, but I am planning on getting the Brunton Autoprop Eco*Star 430mm (~17") prop. The max RPM is 1050, so looking at the motor's unloaded RPM of ~4000, I'll be looking at a 4:1 reduction. Of course, this might be too much, once loaded, but I'd rather start too slow. Once I'm in the water, I can see if the RPM is in fact too slow, and adust the gear ration easily enough. Given the cost of this prop, I am very very reluctant to take chances with cavitation chewing it up like swiss cheese.

Madi

Happy New 2024! - Big thank you for pointing me in the right direction, amazing looking prop, but as you say it loos expensive. Against the peak efficiency talked about (48V | 4902.92 W (RPM: 4183) you should be pretty much spot on with your reduction. Looks like I should have done my math before ordering my pulleys. Regardless of input the RPM does not fluctuate to much (between 3400-4700), it seems to be the torque that is increasing. Knowing that a propeller has a max RPM should have been my starting point. Saying that, still allot of 'Unknowns' that will come to light when propeller is in water doing it's job - will stick to what I got and modify if needs be. Jezz - 'propeller cavitation', news to me and VERY good information, thank you for that!