Is Enphase good/worth cost for microinverters for small system? Why don't many people do smaller systems?

[jlrosine]

Hi all. I am looking to DiY install either a 4.8kW system or a 6.8kW system. This will be my first install so I have been learning a lot the past few weeks. Any thoughts/suggestions/disagreements with my reasoning are welcome. I'd love to hear what others have done, the REAL power I might expect from this system, and if anyone here knows a better way to do smaller systems that you might expand later. In my research, Enphase with micros seemed to be pretty future proof, and no single point of failure (I've had some friends with string inverters down recently and it's not too fun for them).

Question 1: Why don't a lot of installers do smaller systems? My reasoning for building smaller systems it to have a much faster break even, and simpler installation. There are other reasons too, I may be moving in about 10 years, but I think I'll be here until then. In addition to that, my utility company offers net metering, however they only pay wholesale at .04c / kW produced, so to me, the math doesn't really seem to work out building a massive overproduced system where I don't really get a lot of value for the energy I send back. I pay about .15c / kW averaged annually.

Between the two systems, they are relatively close on my estimated break even, however the 17 panel system breaks even faster. Probably due to the fixed cost of the combiner and microinverters that I'm getting.

Our Home Avg Montly kWh: 1091 kWh
Our Home Annual Usage: 13100 kWh

6.8kW - Total system cost before Fed Tax Credit = $8921 - Annual savings based on estimated production = $1645
Break even with tax credit (solar system paid for itself): 3.7 years

4.8kW - Total system cost before Fed Tax Credit = $7308 - Annual savings based on estimated production = $1161
Break even with tax credit (solar system paid for itself): 4.4 years

Question 2: I think I'd rather have the larger system however there are quite a few downsides: it would require me to install part or all of it on a high end of my roof. There is a considerable slope on both sides. I'd need to wear a safety harness at all times. In addition to that, if anything goes wrong with a panel up high, or inverter, I'm going to need to get up two sets of ladders to get to it and have the safety gear on (not ideal for maintenance). The last thing is snow. I really wanted to install these panels lower so that I could get to them on my first level roof...and clean off the snow in the winter. The smaller system would allow me to do this, larger system not so much. Is this flawed thinking...should I just suck it up and get on the steeper parts of the roof?

Here's a list of items I'll be purchasing. Did I forget anything? Could this be done better/cheaper with other systems? Any thoughts welcome....

Panel - Hanwha Q.PEAK-DUO-BLK x12

IIQ8Plus microinverters x12

Enphase Q cable portrait x 12

Enphase Q Terminator cap x4

Enphase IQ Combiner w/Envoy

Ironridge XR-100 Black Rails

Ironridge UFO clamps

Ironridge clamp end stopper sleeve x16

Ironridge end stopper sleeve x16

Ironridge grounding lug x4

Ironridge micro mounting bolts x34

Ironridge FM-FF2-01-B1 x34

Ironridge bolt attachment SQ-02-A1 x34

Ironridge wire clips x40

Solar warning sticker pack

 

[Solarisium]

My thoughts:
Break even delta is 6-7 months! Negligible!

Cost difference: ~$1600 (smaller system + %25 more than) not a game changer, but not negligible neither.

Maintenance: you will need easier access! From time to time you might need to clean/ plow the snow or regular checks. Make it easier.

Moving in 10 years? Spend only for your needs.

Valuation? Your home value goes up an average of 3-5% the moment you put a few panels up. It doesn’t make a difference if you install 48 panels or 8 panels!

what percentage of your electricity cost will the 4.8kw system cover? Suppose 60%.
Does it make sense to spend %25 more to cover the 40%? Account for the minimum fees you must pay to the Utility company.
In both scenarios you are connected to the grid. So you have to pay something!

Are you expecting an increase in your electricity consumption in the next 5 years? if yes, you can expand it in the future since your system is actually expandable.
You dont need to oversize and overpay just tongenerate free power for the Utility company

I designed my system to break even in 3 to 4 years. Small 3.8 string, self install. Yet it’s a chore to do maintenance even though it is easy to access.

Oh one more thing, smaller systems get approved easier!

I’m sure other folks here will have different opinions.


You will need conduit, wires, breakers, disconnects, ground rod, ground wire, etc.

 

[jlrosine]

Thanks Solarisium. Yeah the 4.8 system covers about 60% electricity, the larger system about 83%.

There's another thing I have been researching. I was going to buy the IQ8+ inverters, however they are only rated at 300w output and the panels I'm looking at are 400w. Being the engineer type, I really don't want to lose wattage. I know that peak power isn't that common however I hate paying for something and only using 3/4 of that thing....

I'm thinking I might get the more expensive inverters but geeez....they are pricey. The IQ8H are $225 per.

Is there a better solution for the microinverter path?

 

[zanydroid]

Engineer perspective here.

Installers don't want to do smaller systems, it's not economical.

Soft costs like permits, plans, inspections, which you pay as DIYer, are fixed regardless of system size. If my city did not discount solar permits from $500 to $10 for environmental reasons I would have spent something like $1000 on permits (I have to submit my permits to two jurisdictions, one gives the discount the other does not). I spent about $600 on custom plans to simplify submission. Some AHJ require plans drawn in CAD.

For moving in 10 years... good luck getting a reasonable ROI on that without unmounting it and taking it with you, and at that point you're going to have to explain the holes in the roof to the new buyer / really underselling the value of your time, which should be pretty valuable as an engineer. I'd consider consider myself lucky to break even, and get some free education on doing PV and electrical.

Look into NEP, APSystems, Hoymiles. There is a Hoymiles distributor on the forums who has been helping me a lot with my personal project (permitted grid tie project in California). I just ordered another ~7 kW-AC of HM microinverters. Those microinverters support multiple panels per microinverter, and amortize the cost of some combination of electronics between the panels. For instance on HM1500, a 4 panel, 1500W microinverter saves cost by having a single inverter, single trunk, two MPPT (instead of 4, IE two panels are paralleled to have the same voltage).

AC to DC ratio is conventionally done at 80%. Keep in mind 400W is STC, PTC or NOCT are more realistic. Enphase business model is heavily geared towards lower ratios. Hoymiles is geared towards higher ratios b/c they have lower cost per W-AC.

STC vs PTC. Note STC most likely involves forced cooling of the cells to achieve 25C cell temperature. PTC just lets them get to whatever temperature they get in the ambient air temperature and irradiance

PTC refers to PVUSA Test Conditions, which were developed to test and compare PV systems as part of the PVUSA (Photovoltaics for Utility Scale Applications) project. PTC are 1,000 Watts per square meter solar irradiance, 20 degrees C air temperature, and wind speed of 1 meter per second at 10 meters above ground level. PV manufacturers use Standard Test Conditions, or STC, to rate their PV products. STC are 1,000 Watts per square meter solar irradiance, 25 degrees C cell temperature, air mass equal to 1.5, and ASTM G173-03 standard spectrum. The PTC rating, which is lower than the STC rating, is generally recognized as a more realistic measure of PV output because the test conditions better reflect "real-world" solar and climatic conditions, compared to the STC rating. All ratings in the list are DC (direct current) watts.

I wouldn't say Enphase micros (esp IQ8) are guaranteed to be futureproof. I used to drink the Kool-aid too about IQ8 being the latest/greatest and futureproof to whatever new stuff Enphase comes out with, but search the forums for the massive level of salt about AC coupling IQ8 to non-Enphase batteries. In some ways DC strings are more future proof since DC coupling has less complex control theory and interoperability problems than AC coupling. The way to address single point of failure for string inverter is to just swap the inverter, keeping in mind interoperability issues like the operating voltage, rapid shutdown protocol, and optimizers being compatible across multiple brands so you don't get locked in / screwed by supply chain constraints.

I will say that micros are perfectly structured for the way that the US residential solar installer industry works -- throw expensive hardware at the problem (compensated for by 30% ITC credit and net metering), instead of hiring good designers and installers like they do in Europe and Australia, which are predominantly string inverter systems. Micros are also simple for first time DIY because you can treat it as regular home wiring, and you don't have to do much planning other than, don't put solar panels under shade. In this case, throwing the expensive hardware at the problem is smart, because first time DIY is by definition inexperienced, and dare I say it, inherently dumb in the ways of solar. While someone working in the industry shouldn't be.

 

[OzSolar]

6.8kW - Total system cost before Fed Tax Credit = $8921 - Annual savings based on estimated production = $1645
Break even with tax credit (solar system paid for itself): 3.7 years

4.8kW - Total system cost before Fed Tax Credit = $7308 - Annual savings based on estimated production = $1161
Break even with tax credit (solar system paid for itself): 4.4 years

What annual kWh production numbers are you using?

 

[Mike 134]

If you mount them on your steeper roof section I installed these for any future work

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Guardian-Fall-Protection-RIDG-2-Double-D-Ring-Roof-Anchor-Nails-Included-00510-QC/203191924

I have an 8/12 pitch roof wet snow slides off, dry snow not so much.

 

[Shimmy]

The disadvantage of microinverters is you don't get the battery benefit. I look at PV energy costs as around $0.05/kWh and PV+battery as about $0.13/kWh (for power after sundown). My assumptions are likely different than yours though, but it helps look at the overall cost/benefit.

You really should look at monthly production/consumption rather than annual; it will show you a much clearer picture.

I have old Enphase M215s, and while they did a good job with 1:1 net metering storage has become more important with discount rates or your 3.5:1 and similar.

 

[jlrosine]

What annual kWh production numbers are you using?

I may be oversimplifying my calcs, but here they are. Let me know if I should be more conservative or...just totally messed up the math. Seems like most solar calcs must be using the same or similar formulas because my percentages come out almost identical to say...tesla projects or other sites, depending on the size.

(Panels x watts) x .85 x sun hours for location
((12 x 400) x .85) x 5.2 = 21216watts/day
21216 x 365 (yearly projected watts produced) / 1000 = 7743.84 kW annually
7743.84kW x .15 (my average kWh cost)

 

[Shimmy]

I may be oversimplifying my calcs, but here they are. Let me know if I should be more conservative or...just totally messed up the math. Seems like most solar calcs must be using the same or similar formulas because my percentages come out almost identical to say...tesla projects or other sites, depending on the size.

(Panels x watts) x .85 x sun hours for location
((12 x 400) x .85) x 5.2 = 21216watts/day
21216 x 365 (yearly projected watts produced) / 1000 = 7743.84 kW annually
7743.84kW x .15 (my average kWh cost)

That is a good coarse calculation, but you really should go into pvwatts.nrel.gov and look at monthly data at a minimum. Sam (nrel) is better, but I think you will get a better idea with the quick output from pvwatts.

 

[jlrosine]

Engineer perspective here.

Installers don't want to do smaller systems, it's not economical.

Soft costs like permits, plans, inspections, which you pay as DIYer, are fixed regardless of system size. If my city did not discount solar permits from $500 to $10 for environmental reasons I would have spent something like $1000 on permits (I have to submit my permits to two jurisdictions, one gives the discount the other does not). I spent about $600 on custom plans to simplify submission. Some AHJ require plans drawn in CAD.

For moving in 10 years... good luck getting a reasonable ROI on that without unmounting it and taking it with you, and at that point you're going to have to explain the holes in the roof to the new buyer / really underselling the value of your time, which should be pretty valuable as an engineer. I'd consider consider myself lucky to break even, and get some free education on doing PV and electrical.

Look into NEP, APSystems, Hoymiles. There is a Hoymiles distributor on the forums who has been helping me a lot with my personal project (permitted grid tie project in California). I just ordered another ~7 kW-AC of HM microinverters. Those microinverters support multiple panels per microinverter, and amortize the cost of some combination of electronics between the panels. For instance on HM1500, a 4 panel, 1500W microinverter saves cost by having a single inverter, single trunk, two MPPT (instead of 4, IE two panels are paralleled to have the same voltage).

AC to DC ratio is conventionally done at 80%. Keep in mind 400W is STC, PTC or NOCT are more realistic. Enphase business model is heavily geared towards lower ratios. Hoymiles is geared towards higher ratios b/c they have lower cost per W-AC.

STC vs PTC. Note STC most likely involves forced cooling of the cells to achieve 25C cell temperature. PTC just lets them get to whatever temperature they get in the ambient air temperature and irradiance


I wouldn't say Enphase micros (esp IQ8) are guaranteed to be futureproof. I used to drink the Kool-aid too about IQ8 being the latest/greatest and futureproof to whatever new stuff Enphase comes out with, but search the forums for the massive level of salt about AC coupling IQ8 to non-Enphase batteries. In some ways DC strings are more future proof since DC coupling has less complex control theory and interoperability problems than AC coupling. The way to address single point of failure for string inverter is to just swap the inverter, keeping in mind interoperability issues like the operating voltage, rapid shutdown protocol, and optimizers being compatible across multiple brands so you don't get locked in / screwed by supply chain constraints.

I will say that micros are perfectly structured for the way that the US residential solar installer industry works -- throw expensive hardware at the problem (compensated for by 30% ITC credit and net metering), instead of hiring good designers and installers like they do in Europe and Australia, which are predominantly string inverter systems. Micros are also simple for first time DIY because you can treat it as regular home wiring, and you don't have to do much planning other than, don't put solar panels under shade. In this case, throwing the expensive hardware at the problem is smart, because first time DIY is by definition inexperienced, and dare I say it, inherently dumb in the ways of solar. While someone working in the industry shouldn't be.

Thank you for the thoughtful response(s). I have some questions, and I'm genuinely curious given your hands-on experience.

Why would you think that I wouldn't get a reasonable ROI on the system if I stay here 10 years? I could be doing my calcs incorrectly so, any input here is much appreciated. If we do sell the house around the 10 year mark, I believe the panels would be sold with it.

Do you have a good (better than mine) formula for calculating your solar system output annually? I may look in to the hoymiles equipment. Regarding your statement on other microinverters...I did see a some other brands (Vector?) that allowed 4 panels to one micro, for about $190.

I don't know that I agree with you on string inverter systems being better, but because I have no experience building these systems, all of my knowledge is from reading/watching videos/analyzing pros and cons....I'll have to trust you here. I just had a friend who paid someone a lot of money to install his solar. His inverter has already gone out or having issues. He hasn't been able to get someone out for weeks now, entire system is down. Maybe this is an anomaly? I think for simplicity/safety/shade situations/non-south facing roofs/multi-roof configs/independent panel monitoring/overall system efficiency, I really like the "idea" of the microinverters, but at the end of the day I'm open to listening to every word of knowledge you have to set me straight here .

Final question: I researched hybrid inverters initially and doing a zero export system, potentially with battery. If I could have a guaranteed zero-export system I would probably set that up and save on the permit/inspection hassle, though I think when I sell the house I might still rather just have all my permits/inspections there for the buyer as they probably won't understand it all. Every time I ran the cost estimates for zero-export equipment/output etc., it came out more expensive than just doing the net-metering grid-tie solution. Ultimately, I would love to NOT do a grid-tie system because I don't feel that the utility company really gives much value for the watts produced at wholesale, which is one reason I'm going with a smaller system to offset the actual daily usage. Would you consider a zero-export system in my scenario? If so, what equipment would you suggest I look at?

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, I do really appreciate it.

 

[jlrosine]

That is a good coarse calculation, but you really should go into pvwatts.nrel.gov and look at monthly data at a minimum. Sam (nrel) is better, but I think you will get a better idea with the quick output from pvwatts.

Thanks. I was using pvwatts at the beginning of my research but then got off track and stopped.

When I estimate (roughly) the azimuth into the calculation of the system with their loss calculator, I recalculated my estimates.

4.8kW system would annually save me around $908 (5.6 yr break even)
6.8kW system would annually save me around $1283 (4.7 yr break even)

This seems more realistic I think....

 

[1201]

you don't have batteries so you are forgetting that up to 40-60% of your production will not be self consumed. it will be sold back to the utility probably at a greatly reduced cost. and you will still be buying a lot more than you think from the utility.

I would recommend doing a spreadsheet factoring in the self consumption

 

[Shimmy]

you don't have batteries so you are forgetting that up to 40-60% of your production will not be self consumed.

PVWatts can export a 8760-hour spreadsheet to help with the process.

For me, my daytime loads are approximately 20% of my solar generation with the PV sized to offset 100% of my loads, without opportunistic charging of the car during the day, which adds another ~20%. A 15kWh battery would get me to ~70% average self-consumption. Seasonality makes it impossible to self-consume 100% of my generation; I think I would max out around 80% with a 40kWh battery and current PV.

 

[hwy17]

Installers don't do small systems because they're loaded with fixed costs, sales time, their trucks, the permit process and inspection, the panel electrical work. It doesn't cost them twice as much to do twice the system size so they push customers to bigger systems so they can hit a better price per watt.

It's true that if price per watt was fixed smaller systems would pay off faster.

 

[1201]

PVWatts can export a 8760-hour spreadsheet to help with the process.

For me, my daytime loads are approximately 20% of my solar generation with the PV sized to offset 100% of my loads, without opportunistic charging of the car during the day, which adds another ~20%. A 15kWh battery would get me to ~70% average self-consumption. Seasonality makes it impossible to self-consume 100% of my generation; I think I would max out around 80% with a 40kWh battery and current PV.

it irks me when i see a quote and the greasy solar salespeople show the "$ value of your yearly production" leading people to think they will save the much, when they in fact will not.
about 40% of my energy use is when the sun is shining.

 

[zanydroid]

Why would you think that I wouldn't get a reasonable ROI on the system if I stay here 10 years? I could be doing my calcs incorrectly so, any input here is much appreciated. If we do sell the house around the 10 year mark, I believe the panels would be sold with it.

I just use a simple model based on PVwatts, my historical production, and current TOU prices. My house has absolutely terrible conditions for solar so my ROI assumptions are overly pessimistic due to anchoring bias. Your PVwatts model should be fine as long as you put the right data in and understand how your net metering etc works. OTOH, in some places TOU prices just keep getting worse so some pessimism is warranted.

Whether panels / batteries affect resell value is a big question mark involving local real estate quirks. Here in California I've never cared about panels on a home (solar panel cost is too small of a % of a home purchase price to haggle over it), I think most real estate agents don't understand, a lot of homes have them so it's not a differentiating feature. I've had friends buy houses with solar in MA and be very confused about how to value it due to weird things going on with the seller & SRECs.

An educated buyer (extreme minority, buyers aren't solar people and neither are real estate agents) would probably look at an overly complicated DIY solar setup with diversion loads and Tier 2 inverters and questionable batteries and not be happy about it. To an uneducated buyer it's just going to go over their head and ignore it.

I did see a some other brands (Vector?) that allowed 4 panels to one micro, for about $190.

That sounds too cheap. Are you looking for 1741SA/1741SB? Anything on California Energy Commission list should be good for 50 or 49 states (not sure about Hawaii), but it might be overly pessimistic. Other states 1741SA/SB is probably fine (there is a changeover rule to SB that will vary by state that like probably 1% of this forum actually understands correctly, it's too complicated and error prone for me to look up for you, and describing how it works in California is not useful for you).

I'll have to trust you here. I just had a friend who paid someone a lot of money to install his solar. His inverter has already gone out or having issues. He hasn't been able to get someone out for weeks now, entire system is down. Maybe this is an anomaly?

Of course there is a single point of failure, and it happens, lots of sad SolarEdge and Tesla customers. Standards operations & logistics thinking to mitigate.

In your friends model they're blocked on at least the labor. If you DIY you are not blocked on that, but for situations when you're too busy.

You can hedge against the single point of failure by having extra inverter or buying an inverter that is easy to swap (mechanically and supply chain wise), and swapping yourself. You can add to the ease of swapping inverter by avoiding SolarEdge (since it is highly proprietary wrt rooftop MLPE optimizers) and by making sure you understand how the inverter activates the Rapid Shutdown MLPEs (which automatically go inert and blocking the circuit when the inverter is turned off).

You can mitigate this by having two inverters, then you only lose 50% (but lose some of the cost advantage vs microinverters) while waiting for someone to fix it for you.

ETC.

Final question: I researched hybrid inverters initially and doing a zero export system, potentially with battery. If I could have a guaranteed zero-export system I would probably set that up and save on the permit/inspection hassle, though I think when I sell the house I might still rather just have all my permits/inspections there for the buyer as they probably won't understand it all.

? Zero export is still subject to inspections and interconnect agreement. Even off-grid is still subject to inspections in most states since it involves electrical / construction work on your home. There are differing legal interpretations by non-lawyers on the forum on whether paralleling your hybrid inverter to the grid without an interconnect agreement is legal or not. The Power Company's rules say no, but I guess some non-lawyers on here say that doesn't have the force of law. Pick your poison. Remember it's not possible to hide solar panels, so any unpermitted work is easy for the city and utility workers to see.

Batteries are heavily regulated now in residential construction code, I would not resell a home and leave the batteries unless they are UL9540 and the battery locations are approved by the AHJ (correct rooms in the house, sufficient physical protection from cars, etc.).

In California unpermitted work is a mandatory disclosure on sale of a home. Don't know about your state.

With regard about offsetting daily usage, since electricity usage is lumpy & a lot at night, it may not be that easy for you to achieve a good local consumption savings without a battery or at least net metering within the same day. It depends on how big your constant loads are and whether you set up diversion loads. If you constantly run AC and heat pump, that helps.

I don't have a favorite hybrid inverter with zero export. Grid tie and off-grid are simple, commodity things that are hard to mess up. Hybrid zero export, AC coupling of battery and microinverter, are more bleeding edge; any savings you get in equipment cost will bite you in terms of permitting trouble or spending a lot of time being an beta tester / documentation editor for the company, running hot patches and asking on the forum a lot. See: EG4 8K and 18K threads. (I don't think those are CEC approved so I don't bother reading those threads closely, but they are legal to install , allegedly, in other states).

 

[jlrosine]

.............

I don't have a favorite hybrid inverter with zero export. Grid tie and off-grid are simple, commodity things that are hard to mess up. Hybrid zero export, AC coupling of battery and microinverter, are more bleeding edge; any savings you get in equipment cost will bite you in terms of permitting trouble or spending a lot of time being an beta tester / documentation editor for the company, running hot patches and asking on the forum a lot. See: EG4 8K and 18K threads. (I don't think those are CEC approved so I don't bother reading those threads closely, but they are legal to install , allegedly, in other states).

Phew, that's a lot of info and thanks again.

I think the next step for me is to go back to the drawing board. I'm taking snapshots of my power meter at intervals. Snapshots in the morning/evening, and trying to snapshot it when my "demand pricing" kicks in (and ends). I believe my power is higher priced (demand) from 1pm - 10pm Monday - Saturday, the rest of the time it's .9c/kWh.

Over the past 3 years I have dropped my electric usage by an average of $120/mo just by installing a whole house fan that cost about $300 (5700cfm). Best $300 I've ever spent on energy savings, it paid for itself in 3 months. The single reason my power dropped so significantly was due to how cool the house will get overnight in non-demand pricing, then even on hot days my A/C unit doesn't kick in until after 12pm...sometimes even as late as 3-4pm, rather than running all day/night like most folks do. Changed lights to LED helped somewhat but nowhere near what the whole house fan did.

After reading through all of your responses, it seems that the best "value" or savings I could get would be to setup a small zero-export system that just supplements the daily usage while the sun is up, and adding a battery or two for the evening loads that are on demand (until 10pm).

I need to monitor my meter daily to see what is even possible for me to offset during sun hours. If it requires batteries, the cost begins to rise even more and may not make sense as you were saying, if I'm deciding to move in 10 years.

Thanks again for all of the assistance.

 

[zanydroid]

I think the next step for me is to go back to the drawing board. I'm taking snapshots of my power meter at intervals. Snapshots in the morning/evening, and trying to snapshot it when my "demand pricing" kicks in (and ends). I believe my power is higher priced (demand) from 1pm - 10pm Monday - Saturday, the rest of the time it's .9c/kWh.

Why are you making it so hard for yourself :laugh:

Just install an Emporia Vue 2 and have it log the data for you, or download the hourly (or whatever) data from the power company. Emporia I believe has a built-in analysis showing the peak charge. The company is based on Colorado so they might even be able to tell you how to make it solve your local-specific billing issues.

Ah yes, my friends in Colorado have mentioned demand charges for power. Solar can help with that (either with or without batteries, solar is a brute force thing that cancels out the demand charges that overlap during the production hours; the more advanced hybrids can do 24x7 discharge of the battery at the right time to cancel demand charges to a target value, AKA "peak shaving")

 

[jlrosine]

Why are you making it so hard for yourself :laugh:

Just install an Emporia Vue 2 and have it log the data for you, or download the hourly (or whatever) data from the power company. Emporia I believe has a built-in analysis showing the peak charge. The company is based on Colorado so they might even be able to tell you how to make it solve your local-specific billing issues.

Ah yes, my friends in Colorado have mentioned demand charges for power. Solar can help with that (either with or without batteries, solar is a brute force thing that cancels out the demand charges that overlap during the production hours; the more advanced hybrids can do 24x7 discharge of the battery at the right time to cancel demand charges to a target value, AKA "peak shaving")

Funny story, I tried using my power company website however they have some bad javascript (they just updated to angular/SPA design), so nearly all of their usage reports are broken/don't work at all, so I have resorted to the old fashioned way of kW monitoring until they fix it.

I was researching some hybrid inverters, the MP LV6548 looks nice but I'm not sure I could zero export with it, I'll need to do some more research. At this point, doing a small system with offset and hybrid inverter, and maybe a small battery might have a good payoff for me. Like you said, trying to schedule the battery for usage in demand hours after the sun is down would be ideal.

 

[Quattrohead]

LV6548 cannot do export, but are great units if you get the 250v PV input version.
Emporia Vue is the most important tool you should get right now.