Leaking Electrolyte from Bigbattery Powerblock

[MrNatural22]

YOLO

Maybe trying to test the sprinkler system too?

 

[backforty2]

You also need to consider the cooling issue.

I have a temp sensor, but only pull 30 amps or so, so no issues yet.

 

[MrGreen]

Parlor trick.
You only put out a class A fire of a few crumpled newspapers.

You've got a PCB made of FR4. "Fire Resistant", won't keep burning after source of heat is removed.
You've got batteries with stored energy and wires.
How about shorting out the battery terminals so PCB gets hot, cells get hot and vent. If it doesn't happen to ignite, ignite it.

We've seen a demo that two punctures of a cell resulted in fire.
One member had a DIY battery and electronics in a van, and the stuff went up - we're not sure what ignited it.

Like to see how your fire extinguisher performs with a fire involving relevant materials present in the product.

Hello Hedges:

Per our LiFePO4 Batteries that use this fire extinguisher, we were unable to get them to hit thermal runaway in our tests.
The fire extinguisher is a (4th) safety feature provided for free in all our new lines of LiFePO4 Batteries that we sell. It auto-ignites at a certain temperature and disperses a fire-retardant within the pack. To my knowledge, the only two companies that are offering this added safety feature are ourselves and BYD. BYD China has done tests on the same unit using LFP that you can see online. To date, we have produced 37,000 Battery packs with ZERO thermal runaway issues. I find it fascinating that you have chosen to blast us over a free added safety feature.

 

[MrGreen]

Pretty scary scenario- fire test right next to a mountain of wood pallets. ? ?
In a plastic bucket ?

Yes, we laughed about that too.. In the end - the fire was put out even though the bucket was open. The unit works a lot better inside a closed environment as it's sole purpose is to eliminate oxygen from the fire. Thank you for your comment MrNatural22! : )

 

[MrGreen]

Yes Mobil is targetted: Product Description:
Description:
Our 24V 4.4KWh battery is designed around NEW LiFePO4 cells and manufactured in the USA. This Replacement Battery Pack is an extreme upgrade to any Lead-Acid battery system in your RV, Golf Cart, Solar, or Off-Grid Power Application. By upgrading to this BigBattery pack, you will have More Capacity, More Power, Faster Charging Capabilities, Lighter Payloads, Longer Cycle-Life and the lowest carbon footprint. These batteries are designed to last up to (10) years with Zero Maintenance Required. In both short and long-term, we guarantee that you will see and feel the LiFePO4 difference!

I just picked up my BigBattery shook it gently like it may in a mobile trailer and no rattle. No I didn't try dropping and then shaking. Nor did I stir.

Mandride: I can assure you that these batteries are secure. The design is correct and all mass-produced models already had issues resolved prior to mass-production. I'd really like Will Prowse to review the (2) mass-produced models in his trailer rather than make a video of a Beta Version sent to him (5) months ago. Then everyone would see that the issues brought up had already been fixed prior to mass-production.

 

[Hedges]

I find it fascinating that you have chosen to blast us over a free added safety feature.

I respect all good work.
But I will blast you over advertising an "added safety feature" if it is not documented or demonstrated to be appropriate for the application.
In that case it only gives a false sense of security, which is worse than not including it at all. Based on the apparently improved safety, a customer might situate your battery where they otherwise would not.

As you know there are many types of fire extinguishers with various ratings, e.g. 2A 10BC.
You only demonstrated this one putting out crumpled newspaper, a class A fire. It is inside an electrical device.
I have no idea how it will perform if there is a fault and the FR4 starts and continues burning due to electrical heating.
It is incumbent upon you to show the fire extinguisher is suitable for the application.

I have participated in a failure analysis where power inadvertently applied to a metal shield ignited a PCB. Rather than turning off power, a "hero" ran into the computer room with a chemical extinguisher to save the day. $3 million later, people had to sort out liability.

 

[MrGreen]

I love that video, watched it over and over again with fascination and horror. I'm not seeing the spark theory. Here is an alternate theory: the red hot shorted area is above the ignition temperature of the venting gas but does not ignite it because there is no oxygen supply. Puncturing the cell again sends a puff of air (by moving the whole battery) into the puncture, supplying the missing ingredient for combustion. The resulting ignition produces a strong air flow that sustains the flame. The other gas plume ignites only when exposed to open flame.

Just a theory, strictly amateur. This subject is worthy of serious study. The common wisdom that LFP doesn't catch fire is rather upended. On the other hand we get a hint of the unusual trauma required, so in the end I find it more reassuring than disturbing. I got the takeaway "at least it doesn't ignite spontaneously" like some chemistries we know of. At least not all by itself without a large iron stake jammed through its heart. Theres that.

All by way of saying that I see the eensy weensy built in fire extinguisher as mainly safety theater. I don't hate it but I wouldn't miss it if it wasn't there. If there is an internal short extreme enough to vent and ignite gas then it will most probably still be present after the limited amount of extinguishing gas has dissipated. What you really need is a good sized class C extinguisher and a smoke alarm.

Hello Solarbot,

Just to be clear, we do not advise anyone to puncture our raw cells with a giant metal spear. Nor would I advise anyone to light the gasoline from their gas tank on fire. haha

 

[Hedges]

To date, we have produced 37,000 Battery packs with ZERO thermal runaway issues.

And that is good.
I was interested to read about LG RESU-10H recall due to half a dozen fires. I'm sure you're aware of them.
Different chemistry, and fortunately a large enough company to backstop any loss.

 

[MrGreen]

I respect all good work.
But I will blast you over advertising an "added safety feature" if it is not documented or demonstrated to be appropriate for the application.
In that case it only gives a false sense of security, which is worse than not including it at all. Based on the apparently improved safety, a customer might situate your battery where they otherwise would not.

As you know there are many types of fire extinguishers with various ratings, e.g. 2A 10BC.
You only demonstrated this one putting out crumpled newspaper, a class A fire. It is inside an electrical device.
I have no idea how it will perform if there is a fault and the FR4 starts and continues burning due to electrical heating.
It is incumbent upon you to show the fire extinguisher is suitable for the application.

I have participated in a failure analysis where power inadvertently applied to a metal shield ignited a PCB. Rather than turning off power, a "hero" ran into the computer room with a chemical extinguisher to save the day. $3 million later, people had to sort out liability.

Hedges,
Do you mean to tell me that eliminating the oxygen in a sealed metal container would not assist in the case of a LiFePO4 fire?
We have not been able to get one of our Lishen LiFePO4 batteries to catch on fire - but if we could, this unit would effectively eliminate the oxygen within the container hence the fuel for the fire. The fire retardant does not leave my case hence there would not be the same damage that you referred to per your $3M comment. Again, this is an added (free) 4th safety feature that does in fact help. If the auto-industry took your advice, they would not include seatbelts in their cars. If you don't want it, then buy someone else' product that doesn't have it included. If the battery that you have catches on fire for any reason, you would be glad you had this unit in your pack.

 

[MrGreen]

This comment may not have as much to do with BB as Will's testing.
I think Will needs to have the products that he tests be purchased under someone else's name. Will is getting to be too big of a name in this industry and chances are if he order something the company will make sure it is perfect before sending. Not a true sample of production.

Hello Tbuechner:

Actually, it's the exact opposite. Companies are too excited to have "Will Prowse" take a look at their product and send him their "Beta" packs from (4.5) Months prior. We sent Will Prowse our Mass-Production models that are in his trailer now and if he opens those units, he will see that all the issues he brought up in his last video were already fixed prior to the release of this video. If Will Prowse would have ordered one of our units under a fake-name he would not have had any of these problems. We have learned our lesson and will not be sending out Beta Batteries to any you-tuber's prior to mass-production.

Eric Lundgren : CEO
BigBattery, Inc.

 

[MrGreen]

Not to drive the convo off topic, but this seems like a broken system. It’s an unfair barrier to competition and jacks up prices (artificially?).

DerpsyDoodler,

You are 100% Correct! UL is BS and designed to keep the little-guys from innovation. We just got our 12V OWL Packs "UL CERTIFIED" and it cost us $260,000 & (6) Months of work! UL is a way for TESLA & LG to maintain dominance selling volumes of antiquated solutions that are hard to update. We need to change this system to promote innovation and let the little-guys compete.

 

[MrGreen]

Wouldn't be hard to figure out. If it's going to Henderson it's probably Will. My takeaway from @MrGreen's response was that they shouldn't have sent a beta version for Will's review. At the very least, they should have disclosed that it was basically a prototype so that Will could have noted that in his review.

k3nny,

You are correct. I would add that the Mass-Production Models with all issues fixed are already in Will's possession in his trailer.
The battery tested in Will's last video was the Beta sent to him 4.5 months ago. If anyone has our product, they can see that the mass-production model has already had all these issues fixed prior to customer distribution. Thank you for your time.

Best Regards,
Eric Lundgren : CEO
BigBattery, Inc.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

DerpsyDoodler,

You are 100% Correct! UL is BS and designed to keep the little-guys from innovation. We just got our 12V OWL Packs "UL CERTIFIED" and it cost us $260,000 & (6) Months of work! UL is a way for TESLA & LG to maintain dominance selling volumes of antiquated solutions that are hard to update. We need to change this system to promote innovation and let the little-guys compete.

Excuse me? I never said UL was BS. I do not consider safety to be “BS”. I don’t consider safety to be a cornered monopoly that stifles fair competition, either.

 

[Hedges]

Hedges,
Do you mean to tell me that eliminating the oxygen in a sealed metal container would not assist in the case of a LiFePO4 fire?
We have not been able to get one of our Lishen LiFePO4 batteries to catch on fire - but if we could, this unit would effectively eliminate the oxygen within the container hence the fuel for the fire. The fire retardant does not leave my case hence there would not be the same damage that you referred to per your $3M comment. Again, this is an added (free) 4th safety feature that does in fact help. If the auto-industry took your advice, they would not include seatbelts in their cars. If you don't want it, then buy someone else' product that doesn't have it included. If the battery that you have catches on fire for any reason, you would be glad you had this unit in your pack.

What are the ratings of the fire extinguisher you used?
Is it UL listed or have other recognized test lab ratings?

Seat belts cost $30,000 per life saved.
Air bags cost $2,000,000 per life saved. But 3/4 of those are lives of people who didn't wear their seat belt.
Air bags cost $8,000,000 per life of someone wearing seatbelt saved.
Air bags kill one person for every 3 people wearing seatbelts saved.

I do not know if the fire extinguisher in your battery pack would do any/much good if the battery vented and caught fire. It hasn't been tested for that use. Perhaps it would, extinguishing flames inside the box so only cooler gasses escape the box and do not reignite; testing of the system or the extinguisher in a representative application could support that. As you say, 37,000 batteries shipped without any undergoing thermal runaway, which is good.

When there is an electrical fire, stopping current flow is the thing to do. Your BMS may do that, in the event of a short circuit downstream.

I did observe your cables route through holes in sheetmetal. It appeared to me that was a location where shorting might occur without protection by either BMS or fuse.

Leaking Electrolyte from Bigbattery Powerblock

Depends on presence of children, pets, clueless significant other. It is probably reasonably safe especially after you've inspected and monitored it. And implemented any suggestions like orienting for vents up and placing in "secondary containment" (rubbermaid pan). Obviously a lot better than...

diysolarforum.com

 

[MrGreen]

Wouldn't be hard to figure out. If it's going to Henderson it's probably Will. My takeaway from @MrGreen's response was that they shouldn't have sent a beta version for Will's review. At the very least, they should have disclosed that it was basically a prototype so that Will could have noted that in his review.

K3nny:
You are correct. We are simply not going to be sending BETA Versions out for review. In the future, only Mass-Production for review.

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

Looks maybe like they batteries became voltage unbalanced ?

That would cause some batteries to be fine and other to be not so fine.

 

[MrGreen]

What are the ratings of the fire extinguisher you used?
Is it UL listed or have other recognized test lab ratings?

Seat belts cost $30,000 per life saved.
Air bags cost $2,000,000 per life saved. But 3/4 of those are lives of people who didn't wear their seat belt.
Air bags cost $8,000,000 per life of someone wearing seatbelt saved.
Air bags kill one person for every 3 people wearing seatbelts saved.

I do not know if the fire extinguisher in your battery pack would do any/much good if the battery vented and caught fire. It hasn't been tested for that use. Perhaps it would, extinguishing flames inside the box so only cooler gasses escape the box and do not reignite; testing of the system or the extinguisher in a representative application could support that. As you say, 37,000 batteries shipped without any undergoing thermal runaway, which is good.

When there is an electrical fire, stopping current flow is the thing to do. Your BMS may do that, in the event of a short circuit downstream.

I did observe your cables route through holes in sheetmetal. It appeared to me that was a location where shorting might occur without protection by either BMS or fuse.

Leaking Electrolyte from Bigbattery Powerblock

Depends on presence of children, pets, clueless significant other. It is probably reasonably safe especially after you've inspected and monitored it. And implemented any suggestions like orienting for vents up and placing in "secondary containment" (rubbermaid pan). Obviously a lot better than...

diysolarforum.com

Hedges,

Wherever our battery cables wrap through sheet-metal, the sheet-metal is protected with a rubber ring.
This fire-extinguisher is a (4th) safety feature.. Our BMS is the main safety feature and yes, it functions in the format you have stated.

We are all about "Constructive Criticism", if you have a better way of doing things - please do let us know so that we can provide a better product to the customer. If I spend extra money to provide a free (4th) safety feature and you deem that to be unacceptable; I cannot follow your logic.

The truth is, our batteries do not catch on fire due to our existing safety features. If I choose to take our company above and beyond the current industry safety standards.. well.. that's my choice. If you don't like added safety features - then don't buy our battery or any battery from BYD.

Thank you,

Eric Lundgren : CEO
BigBattery.com

 

[MrGreen]

Looks maybe like they batteries became voltage unbalanced ?

That would cause some batteries to be fine and other to be not so fine.

Hello SpongeboB Sinewave,

All of our batteries are bottom-balanced and tested prior to MFG and our BMS keeps voltage balanced. If you buy a pack and you see that this is not the case, feel free to return it for a replacement. Thank you.

 

[Sky-HHI]

I just checked BigBattery web site and could find no information on batteries with fire extinguishers. I chatted with a tech and he said that it is only in the 12v owl max but there was no information on the web site? The youtube video with the fire in a bucket said " We've included a miniature fire extinguisher unit in every one of our LFP batteries." was that a true statement made on Jan 25 ,2021 ?? I hope Will P. opens his new batteries and looks for the fire extinguishers.

 

[MrGreen]

Excuse me? I never said UL was BS. I do not consider safety to be “BS”. I don’t consider safety to be a cornered monopoly that stifles fair competition, either.

DerpsyDoodler,
Yes, you are correct. What I was referring to is the amount that it costs to get "UL Certified" and the bureaucratic process of attaining this certification are in my mind "BS". We could not agree more.. I agree, Safety should not be a cornered monopoly that stifles fair competition and UL should not cost $250K or take (6) months to achieve for us when it only costs $25K and (2) months for larger companies.