diy solar

diy solar

looking for a good quality bms for my large 14s system

Well i just got a reply back from REC. They didn't seem to be of much help.. I told them what i wanted to do,, and this was their reply....


Dear Dacflyer,

We are not familiar with EPEVER and the BMS cannot communicate with this inverter, but anyway you can use it for cell's monitoring.

Best regards,
Maja Pozar Andrejasic

What exactly is it that you want your BMS to communicate to the EPEVER charge controller? A "stop charging" signal?

If 'stop charging' is all you desire, it may be possible to use the controllers remote on/off and/or an external relay controlled by the BMS to switch the charge controller.

It seems like the components with the best chance of being able to interface with a BMS are victron components. Some BMS' Batrium I think, 123smartBMS, and the SBMS0 have some level of communication with some Victron components
 
I wasn't wanting it to communicate at all,,, That was just what they told me.. like they weren't interested in my question... basically the same thing i asked here in the beginning...
 
Toms >> Can you explain to me what this means..
you mentioned >>>>> keeping the voltages between the knees equal.
 
GXMnow >> I'll get you some pictures of the BMW batteries I have. there is only a plastic cover on top. It pops off relatively easy.
the battery cells aren't removable that I can tell, the cells are glued together from what I saw in the videos on BMW batteries being built,
and all cell connections are laser welded.. and the cells are tightly encased in an aluminum case. I think it would be too much work to separate the cells. Mine have 2 cells doubled up.. example a 3s pack will have 6 cells.. 4s will have 8 cells etc. the tabs would be super easy to solder onto. i still have the OEM connectors that connect onto the cells, and i have all the modules that connect to the batteries,, I'm guessing they are the cell balancers and bms ? I am not sure, and i cannot find any info on them, or how to make them work.. but i have all the cell balance lead harnesses, co i can utilize them if needed..

I have 6 16s BMW packs i acquired, can i offer them for sale on here somewhere ??
 
Toms >> Can you explain to me what this means..
you mentioned >>>>> keeping the voltages between the knees equal.

An active balancer will keep cell voltages equal while the battery is charging. This will not necessarily capacity balance the cells.
 
Tom >> ok,, i just didn't understand the term ( Between the knees.. )

Tom's previous comment doesn't really touch on the meaning of the term "between the knees." The term refers to the voltage/SOC curve of lifepo4 (visually and conceptually). Between the knees is slang/shorthand for the flat part of the charge/discharge curve (most most of the energy is to be found, and where voltage is relatively stable).

Below is a standard charge and discharge curve, Y axis is voltage, X axis is SOC. The knees are the inflection points in the curve (red line) around roughly 10% and 90% SOC where the curve goes from relatively flat to near vertical. What this translates to in reality is when you are in the knees, small changes in SOC can lead to large changes in voltage. There is relatively little energy to be squeezed out of your batteries in the knees, consequently its often advised to "stay out of the knees", and at the same time balancing is most effective "in the knees." or at least that is my limited understanding.

LiFePO4 Charge Voltage vs. SOC
LiFePO4 Discharge Voltage vs. SOC


For a much more detailed look, see the links in my signature NordkynDesign and Marinehowto

EDIT: just remembered you are using EV batteries, so they probably are not lifepo4. I'm not sure how this will apply to NMC or whatever battery chemistry you are using.
 
I have some large BMW batteries
They range in 3s, 4s, and 5s packs, i have them configured so that i have 14s groups. i can make up to 6 strings, but for now i will start off with 2 and see how much more I can add in the future.
But for now I am searching for a good BMS, one with active top and bottom balancing, multi thermal sensor capabilitys ( I'd like to use the thermal sensors on the battery if i can. )
I have heard that Orion , Batrium and REC were pretty good units, but picking the one i need seems to be over my head.
I know i'll probably need one BMS for each string I have.
I need suggestions.
Thanks.
I use a Orion Jr BMS, up to 16s. Lots of options with this unit, takes a PC to adjust settings. You can add extra thermal leads comes with three. Change settings to balance cells all the time if you wish, makes the device extremely versatile.
 
What exactly is it that you want your BMS to communicate to the EPEVER charge controller? A "stop charging" signal?

If 'stop charging' is all you desire, it may be possible to use the controllers remote on/off and/or an external relay controlled by the BMS to switch the charge controller.

It seems like the components with the best chance of being able to interface with a BMS are victron components. Some BMS' Batrium I think, 123smartBMS, and the SBMS0 have some level of communication with some Victron components
Best way to link BMS to Victron products is CanBus communications.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dzl
EDIT: just remembered you are using EV batteries, so they probably are not lifepo4. I'm not sure how this will apply to NMC or whatever battery chemistry you are using.
[/QUOTE]

my cells indicate Lithium-ion
 
EDIT: just remembered you are using EV batteries, so they probably are not lifepo4. I'm not sure how this will apply to NMC or whatever battery chemistry you are using.

my cells indicate Lithium-ion
[/QUOTE]
Most likely they are a Cobalt type which run a little higher voltage than the LiFePo4 (aka LFP) most people like to use. The LFP type does have several advantages. They will not catch fire. They can handle more charge cycles. They have a flatter voltage curve. And they act more like Lead Acid so charger settings are a bit easier. Their only real disadvantage is they have a lower energy density than the Cobalt variants. So for the same power the pack will be larger and heavier, but for a system sitting in a home, it is not a big problem. And the difference is not all that big either. LFP are also a little bit lower voltage. A typical "48 volt" system is 16 cells with LFP, where a LiIon with Cobalt only needs 14 cells to get a good typical "48 volt" pack.

My LG Chem Chevy Bolt batteries, are technically Li NMC (Lithium, Nickle, Manganese, and Cobalt). There are a few other varieties. The less Cobalt, the less likely to burst into flames, but less energy per volume and mass as well. Li NMC is one of the safer Cobalt designs, and I have not seen any reports of a Chevy Bolt or Volt catching fire after a crash like we have seen in Teslas. I think the Nissan Leaf cells are between the Tesla and Bolt on the Cobalt scale.

If we are all careful and keep the cell voltages between the safe limits, and don't exceed the maximum charge and discharge rates, the cells are very safe and should provide several years of service without a problem. Each chemistry does have it's little differences in the charge characteristics, but they are all close enough that as long as we use a CC CV charge profile below the maximum, they will work without stressing the batteries. The cells for EV's now are being built to take huge power surges and fast charging to make the cars more like a gasoline car. So these cells are now able to crank out crazy short term current and then get charged to 80% in just 20 minutes. In our home storage use, we will never push the cells anywhere close to those numbers. Charging at over 30 amps and discharging up to 80 amps, my pack is dead cold, the same temp as the floor of my garage where they are located.

Any BMS that can monitor the cell voltages and disconnect the charge or load current if something goes out of range is all you really need to keep you safe. But you should not depend on the BMS to control the charge or discharge limits. I know my Schneider XW-Pro will throw errors and go offline if the BMS has to shut it down, but it won't damage anything. The only reason you need the BMS to communicate is to tell the inverter or charger to stop as there is a problem. If you are running the cells close to full and empty, this may be a helpful feature to keep the system from going into a shutdown with errors they may require a manual operation to get it back running again. When my XW saw a low battery condition, I had to clear the error before it would turn back on. If this was a remote cabin that was not occupied, it could be a serious problem. But if you leave the top 10% and bottom 30% by limiting the max charge and load run down, even if there is drift, this should not happen. The BMS should only come into play if something if failing and going bad, and it will save the pack and maybe prevent a fire. In which case, you will need to go there to find out and fix what went wrong anyways. So while it is nice to be able to monitor the battery bank, I don't feel it is truly necessary to have it talk to the inverter / charger. If you see it going out of the normal range, fix the issue before it goes far enough to shut it down.

A decent Basic BMS will still prevent a battery failure due to over/under charging any single cell. That is the whole point of having one. Even with no balance current, they should be able to do that. If it goes too far out of balance, it shuts down when a cell hits the safe limit. Add balance current, and it can prevent a nuisance shut down by helping keep the batteries from drifting out and hitting the limit. A "Smart" BMS can report and tell you how it is doing. Some also have temperature shut down for high temp, and some even do low temp protection. LFP cells can't be charged below freezing. This is all to protect the batteries. The harder you push the batteries, the more protection you might need to keep them safe. If everything goes well, the BMS should never need to shut anything down. The proper operation of the inverter / charger system should keep the batteries in a safe state. It should know to shut down if the pack is too hot or cold or if the total pack voltage is going out of range. It really can't do anything for a single cell problem. And that is where the BMS really comes in. A single cell going bad. It could be a failing cell or a connection that came loose. But it is a problem so having the system shut down makes sense. Fix the problem, don't make the inverter work around it.
 
Well i just got a reply back from REC. They didn't seem to be of much help.. I told them what i wanted to do,, and this was their reply....


Dear Dacflyer,

We are not familiar with EPEVER and the BMS cannot communicate with this inverter, but anyway you can use it for cell's monitoring.

Best regards,
Maja Pozar Andrejasic

LOL.. Maja is a bit cryptic sometimes. Tine is a little better but not much.

Hooking up an EVPURE charger to a lithium ion battery bank is a risky proposition if you ask me. Cheap charge controllers are bad enough, using one on a lithium battery just seems like asking for problems. Get a Victron or some other non-chinese quality unit.

I use a couple of Sunny Islands and a REC BMS myself. It is a high quality BMS with an adequate cell balancing current. Most BMS's like batrium, Daly, and even the smaller Orions, don't have balancing currents big enough to handle larger packs. (I think some of the Batriums do however) They're fine for packs with 50 or 75 ah of capacity, but I wouldn't hook one up to my 480ah bank. 150 or 300ma of balance current isn't enough to do anything.. its like a fly hitting a freight train to slow it down.

I don't want to sound condescending here, but someone needs to say this... If you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be messing with large lithium battery packs. Lithium batteries come universally equipped with idiot detectors, and when they detect an idiot, they call the guys with fire hoses.
You need to learn what you're doing on something safer first. LFP or Lead Acid.. Neither of these will burn down your home if you make a mistake.. and you WILL probably make a mistake along the way somewhere. I think we all do at some point as its all part of the learning curve.

One other piece of advice. If you do go with a REC BMS, make sure you mount the SHUNT directly to the negative terminal of the battery.. and I mean directly.. SHUNT.jpg
 
In my testing of 24Ah NMC PHEV cells @ 20A I found a range of 3.3V to 4.05V/cell to represent a 20-80% SoC utilization and keeps you well between the knees.
 
Mine are also Bolt cells. I have been running them down to about 49.3 volts under a 50 amp load. That is 3.52 volts per cell, or about 30% remaining on that graph. A few minutes after the current shuts off, the pack comes back up to 49.9 volts, 3.56 per cell. So resting that looks like 40% which is pretty close to what the BMS is reporting by counting the AH in and out. On the charge side, I have been stopping at 57.3 volts, 4.09 per cell. That looks like about 82% give or take, and I know it is safe. Since my charge current is just 30 amps across six 60 AH cells, the voltage does not drop back at all. It is basically an absorbtion charge. After a full hour at no current, it still showed no drop. I want to pull them a little higher, but the Schneider LiIon battery setting won't allow it. I just moved it to "Custom" and I will see if I can get them to 4.15 per cell, 58 volts total on the 14S pack. But I don't think I will go up there unless I am in a power outage situation to get a bit more energy stored.
 
Phuuu, ok, I did a bit more homework.. I called BHU and asked for exact chemistry of the cells I have.. They are Samsung NMC Prismatic 3.7V cells.

GXMnow >> I appreciate how informative you are.. you've helped a lot..
These are the packs I have... 3s, 4s and 5s
https://batteryhookup.com/products/bmw-oem-3s-12v-85ah-869wh-battery-module

MurphyGuy >> I am stuck with the solar charger I bought. and it is a EPEVER, not EVPure.. are they the same ? I do not know..
But I asked questions before I bought it. I was Assured that it was a good quality charger.
And I've watched several videos by Will Prowse on the TUBE.
So I will give it a whirl and see how it does. The same with my AIMS inverter/ charger. ( the charger shouldn't get used hardly ever i hope)
 
Here's a few pictures of what I'm building / gathering
I am making sure things are fuses well also
Going to start with just 2s worth of batteries,, then add more later on.
 

Attachments

  • 20200726_134051.jpg
    20200726_134051.jpg
    115.5 KB · Views: 11
  • 20200903_171313.jpg
    20200903_171313.jpg
    102.1 KB · Views: 11
Mine are also Bolt cells. I have been running them down to about 49.3 volts under a 50 amp load. That is 3.52 volts per cell, or about 30% remaining on that graph. A few minutes after the current shuts off, the pack comes back up to 49.9 volts, 3.56 per cell. So resting that looks like 40% which is pretty close to what the BMS is reporting by counting the AH in and out. On the charge side, I have been stopping at 57.3 volts, 4.09 per cell. That looks like about 82% give or take, and I know it is safe. Since my charge current is just 30 amps across six 60 AH cells, the voltage does not drop back at all. It is basically an absorbtion charge. After a full hour at no current, it still showed no drop. I want to pull them a little higher, but the Schneider LiIon battery setting won't allow it. I just moved it to "Custom" and I will see if I can get them to 4.15 per cell, 58 volts total on the 14S pack. But I don't think I will go up there unless I am in a power outage situation to get a bit more energy stored.
I cut my charge off at 4.05 (56.7v). The Sunny Island Load Shedding contactor opens at 3.4 (47.6v) and the BMS set to disconnect the battery at 3.3v. But I monitor my battery when we use it and would start shutting down house loads if we ever started to approach the lower end.

The load shedding contactor is a 160 amp ABB monster that's about 5-1/2 inches square. When it engages, it sounds like someone slamming a large text book down on a steel table. You can hear it all the way across the house.

I'm using a 480ah (14s8p) pack and set to charge at 100 amps, which works out to 12.5amps per 60ah pouch.

Since the REC BMS tapers the charge current, my charge curve is a bit closer to the discharge curve on that graph. My pack also discharges at around 50 amps on average, with short duration 100 amp spikes as the well water pump is used. House pulls a steady 800 to 1000 watts most of the day. The pack handles it like its nothing.

I was testing my grid charging settings in the Sunny Island the other day. Pumped 2.4 kw into the pack for an hour and it brought it up only 0.5 volts.. LOL. My system is only for emergencies so it doesn't get used unless a storm knocks out grid power. I store it at 3.6 volts at around 65degF in the basement. Should last 20 years.

Our net metering agreement with the utility is such that I give them energy, they have to give it back when I want it. No money. But now they've changed. I'm grandfathered until 2028, but after that, they sell it to me a retail rates (currently 16 cents) and buy it back at wholesale (4 cents). At the rate the rates are climbing, I'm guessing by 2028, the retail rate will be somewhere around 20 to 22 cents.

I'm hoping that by the time that happens, the solid state batteries will be common and cheap.. or maybe the LTO's will be more common. I plan to build a 200kw pack and just disconnect. For the 3 or 4 weeks during the deep winter when solar is a real issue, I can charge with a generator if I need.
 
Murphyguy >> I know all about how loud them contactors are when they engage.
I maintain hiway HI-Mast lighting, and the control box can have up to 6 contactors in them, and they almost sound like a car crash when they turn on..
BANG! let there be light....lol
My utility here is a joke also.. they don't even generate their own power..they buy from Duke Energy.. 2c per Kw and sell to us at 12c per Kw.
I was with an incentive program for 5 yrs.. it was a 1 time contract.. they paid me 15c per Kw. So I was getting 17c total per Kw..
But after that ended, i tried to negotiate to see if they would consider net metering.. they wouldn't.. so i had to disconnect from them,, otherwise i'd have to pay them to take my power..and that wouldn't work for me... so now that i can afford it, i am doing partial off grid things here..
I still have to install dedicated outlets for the isolated circuits i plan. i'm just running 120V. I'm going to try to use all the solar i can here,, depends on how many of the new panels i can fit on my roof..
 

Attachments

  • 20200822_115059.jpg
    20200822_115059.jpg
    166 KB · Views: 5
  • 20200823_124051.jpg
    20200823_124051.jpg
    154.9 KB · Views: 5
Back
Top