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Modified Sine Inverter Uses

seneysolar

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These days, mod sine inverters get a bad rep. What is a good use of your old mod sine inverter laying around?
Several manufacturers still make them and alot of inverter generators are mod sine without people even realizing it.
Is THD more important than just the squared off sine wave I assume?
 
I see most inverter generators dont even want to talk about it. They go out of there way not to mention pure sine. They just say "clean power for sensitive electronics" and tell you your computer is safe... or low THD. So it seems people are using them in this manner (as if they are pure sine) and nobody notices the difference, everything works.

If you had a brand new Magnum mod sine inverter, youd just consider it a paperweight??
Screenshot_20240320-074831_Chrome.jpg
 
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Wire welder, air compressor, washing machine, is what I power with my 3000 Watt MSW inverter.
It may do those things but I’m paranoid about killing things much more expensive than the psw inverters are. Because I killed a computer monitor and fridge with one many moons ago and I’ve watched a refrigerator ‘dance’ each time it started that worked fine on a smaller psw inverter…
Power tools with universal (brush-type) motors
I trust hedges professional background to inform this.
One of my tablesaws is a brush motor as are my makita angle grinders, but I don’t have any mod sine stuff anymore other than an old 300W in storage somewhere that I have not seen in years so it doesn’t matter to me now.
 
Increasing my blood pressure because I bought one accidentally last year during a power outage.
Now I’m wondering about the Champion 6250 inverter generator I bought last year LOL
It works fine but if I start the ~15A brush motor tablesaw while another 120V load is running it trips the generator’s GFCI on the existing load, even if on the same circuit. Once I start the tablesaw, resetting the GFCI works successfully. I’ve wondered about adding some capacitors but I’m unclear if that will thwart GFCI function and I sorta like the GFCI functioning.
 
Up until the last couple years I used nothing but MSW inverters in my off grid house (35 years off grid). The only things that failed on MSW power were an electric blanket controller and a bread maker. Everything else worked fine although some induction motors would hum louder than they should.
 
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My 2500-watt msw inverter works great for taking up space and collecting dust. Jeez, I think it cost $800 and it weighs 50 lbs.
I bought it in 1990 to run the marine air conditioner on our boat while away from the dock. It's worked great for everything including powering our new camper. It went into semi-retirement when I bought a 3000/9000 psw inverter-charger.
 
I’ve got an ancient TrippLite APS2424 that produces modified sinewave, with 2x12v AGM batteries.
The thing weighs a ton due to its transformer, and has really good surge capability.

Now relegated to backup duty for computer racks. The PSUs just rectify, and don’t care about the waveform.
It can run a microwave, but I don’t like the buzzing sound from it so I don’t do that anymore.
 
Maybe your over thinking things and not trying things.

For better part of a decade I used an ancient SENDON 400 UPS to run back up on my sump pump.
That's a 400 watt rated UPS for electronics with a crude modified square wave inverter running thorough a transformer no less to drive a 1/4 hp sump pump...

It was a tank, I'd still be using it had my son no dropped a rag in the sump and a trace burned off the power board as the old inverter tried to repeatedly start the motor hours on end.
Some will say you that it was too small or the motor would not work or the it would damage things...
The only thing that Sendon was not good for was a computer back up because it was not fast enough to switch over to keep my PC on

Maybe rather than worry about what a thing can for you should try it out and see if its got any objectionable results.

It has been said here there are some rough starts and noise when using motors and such on modified sign inverters.
That's true...
Your going to get more heat and lower efficiency.
The MSW inverter

This image shows what happens when you add a triple harmonic to a pure sign wave ( in case folks don't understand I'm not trying to waste bandwidth with a physics lesson )
1710944804921.png

What you see is the yellow and blue sign wave super imposed on on the the green first harmonic.
These wave forms add and if you look at it and think about you can see where they add and where they cancel.
This is how we can create a square wave from pure sign waves!!!

And this is what a square wave really is its a mixture of different frequencies are odd numbers added together.
The effect of this is on electrical equipment can be heard as the loud hum in a motor or transformer.
These higher frequencies make sounds we hear and they cause abnormal pulses in torque and.
These higher frequencies cause losses in the motor because its not designed to effectively use the torque pulses and the iron lamination are not the correct thickness to reduce heating losses.

These can make a motor run too hot
if your loads are already near the peak power a machine can deliver then the extra heat and wasted power may cause a motor to overheat.
But most of the time we don't run things at peak power output do we?
So it your motor is not getting too hot and you can live with the objectionable sounds not worries.

There are other places in a power system with a lot of harmonics on it that these things can cause voltage spikes and higher corrent flows in wiring, mostly these are confined to three phase systems and large systems.
So try things ad observe...


Things right off the top I would not trust with a MSW inverter are modern electronics.
Generally they are disposable from the start and prone to fail with out any help form us by feeding them less digestible power.

Since realty important loads are known to be sensitive power spikes and fail at the worst times its probably a good idea to look at a power conditioner to protect your furnace or washing machine these days not just your TV or Micro wave.
I won't suggest brands or anything because thats up to you and how much your fear and mistrust your stuff


Many years ago I used to use a lot of SOLA transformers at work to protect our sensitive automation from lightening, switching transients and harmonics.
They would take dirty power and make it into clean power.
And Today we don't put these in or replace them as they fail ,mostly because we have been real lucky I guess or the electronics are better?
I couldn't say.
1710945797492.png

I can tell you after spending years on picket lines I could not care less how much it costs to blow up all the electronics where I work and don't bother too much raising alarm about bad power at work.
Sometimes I even torture things.
I am amazed how Toshiba TV sets can be poked with 5000 volt meggars and still function!
( just an example of what a bored electrician will do with TV set you took out of an office no one wants )

Modern electronics seem to be quite able to survive a lot of abuse and I figure as long as your TV set is OK with a MSW inverter its probably going to be fine for a long time...
So your Mileage may vary, as they say.

Maybe you never have a problem....
Maybe your stuff is such cheap crap it blows up without a wisper or sigh.
You can predict a failure anymore, but if its important like your Furnace perhaps your should not risk abusing the boards and electronics or even trust utility power without some kind of power conditioner.
Since I don;t trust most electronics I tend to unplug things I am not using like electronic washing machine if there is a thunderstorm....
The Chinese TV from Costco is so cheap and under warranty I don't bother.
 
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I trust hedges professional background to inform this.
One of my tablesaws is a brush motor as are my makita angle grinders, but I don’t have any mod sine stuff anymore other than an old 300W in storage somewhere that I have not seen in years so it doesn’t matter to me now.

The higher frequency harmonics of square edges would still cause heating in magnetic cores, maybe vibration too. But I've used it connected to car battery for portable power tools. Not sure how good for speed control (electronic dimmer).

Waveforms vs. load


Powered an induction air compressor, but not log splitter



"Warpverter" is very interesting. Three or four MSW of different voltages and switching frequency, connected in series to make stair-step sine wave. I think that could be the best balance of surge current and smooth waveform.

I don't understand how modern "low frequency" inverter with HF buck converter into LF transformer gives significant surge. Maybe it doesn't really - about 2x or 3x rating for a few seconds. Warpverter on the other hand should be able to deliver transformer short-circuit fault current (limited by winding resistance) if it has enough FETs in parallel.
 
I don't understand how modern "low frequency" inverter with HF buck converter into LF transformer gives significant surge. Maybe it doesn't really - about 2x or 3x rating for a few seconds. Warpverter on the other hand should be able to deliver transformer short-circuit fault current (limited by winding resistance) if it has enough FETs in parallel.

I don't understand what this is even asking

Transformers short circuit current is govern by the output impedance.
If you get a DC offset from a switching transient you might get a higher voltage and available current on a fault for a very brief period for a few cycles.
 
I don't understand how modern "low frequency" inverter with HF buck converter into LF transformer gives significant surge. Maybe it doesn't really - about 2x or 3x rating for a few seconds.
Unscientific, but my hefty APC 3000XL (2700W LF) UPS can start my 1/2hp garbage disposal without blinking. My lightweight 2500W HF Reliable can barely start the disposal, and will brown out the entire house making other items turn off.
 

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I don't understand what this is even asking

Transformers short circuit current is govern by the output impedance.
If you get a DC offset from a switching transient you might get a higher voltage and available current on a fault for a very brief period for a few cycles.

A square-wave or MSW inverter applies battery voltage to 12V (or 48V) winding of a transformer. I think 120V output current is limited only by transformer winding resistance and transistor resistance. Transformers that have 3% regulation might run high 3% in voltage around 124V, and low 3% around 116V. If you short them, current could be 15x or so rated current. So LF MSW could let load draw whatever current transformer could deliver.

Modern PSW LF inverter has buck converter off 48V battery to feed primary of transformer. Buck converter can only deliver so much current (unless inductor is allowed to saturate). I think its surge is limited to max current of the buck converter.

I'm also puzzled how it can instantly instantly reverse power flow for reactive loads or load-dump situation. Seems to me it would be just like HF inverter in that regard, having a buck converter to make sine wave. Difference it is doesn't also have boost converter from battery to HV rail.
 
The first inverter I ever bought was a Tripplite square wave, not an MSW. It was a small aluminum box with some of the old TO3 case power transistors sticking out. Wouldn't even run a 13" TV unless I disconnected the degaussing coil. Everything plugged into it hummed loudly. MSW inverters were a huge improvement.
 
I'm also puzzled how it can instantly instantly reverse power flow for reactive loads or load-dump situation. Seems to me it would be just like HF inverter in that regard, having a buck converter to make sine wave. Difference it is doesn't also have boost converter from battery to HV rail.
OK That I can answer.

Reactive power.

When you have have high speed switching on inductive reactive loads the load continues to drive the solid state components to conduct for a short time.
They don't actually switch off as fast as you might expect and you get VARs generated

Best place to see this is where you might least expect it in a DC motor driven by a Chopper

See here..
1710950213370.png

Without that diode the Armature reaction will continue to push current after the SCR should turn off.
It has no place to go so it pushes this Lagging reactive power back through the SCR forcing it to conduct a little longer and back to the bridge.

This is not an inverter but its the same principle just simplified.
There is no free lunch so this reactive power has to be dealt with, by adding the the free wheeling diode the SRC can switch faster
 
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