Must Read: EMF (Electro Magnetic Field) or leaking current/ voltage, and why you need to be aware

[Frank in Thailand]

Just a voltage difference between you and the rods.
Fuel tankers have a earth lead they connect to the fuel tanks before refilling.
An earth strap on your boots?

You really need to fix this... do you have a pacemaker....or even worse: a $800 smartwatch??


Probably need to earth each rod to the frame. Wrapping your cells with tin foil before binding them isn't so silly.
Earthing is only a generic term. In most cases establishing a connection between two sites of PD is the aim.

Edit- ''You can't get emf with dc!" With switchmode electronics isn't DC just AC with zero V set lower?

worse... $3500 mining rig... (well... it was in 2017)

And boots??
Barefoot In the home Mr.
This is Thailand.
No shoes or boots in the house!

 

[cinergi]

Are the threaded rods that make up your compression setup insulated (inside / in-between the cells)? E.g. covered with a hose? I can't tell from the pictures.

Is there measurable voltage between any of the rods and the battery terminals?

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Video uploading, done.

You will see a sh!t load of wires all over and under the cells.
one of the reasons I need to redo my setup.
Other, more important reason is my wire.. I choose massive core and stripped the coating with special stripper.


Apparently I had the settings wrong, it made a "dent" in de 1mm2 wire core.wiggle the cable a little, even with shrink wrap and... snap, broken connection :-(

I need to redo the wire-ring for my DIYBMS cell modules.


Originally planned to have on the cell, but if defective the replacement would be challenging.
then too short wires to make good placement, oh well.... I'm good at making mistakes

 

[cinergi]

Are the threaded rods that make up your compression setup insulated (inside / in-between the cells)? E.g. covered with a hose? I can't tell from the pictures.

Is there measurable voltage between any of the rods and the battery terminals?

OK I see your video now - but even though visually it seems there's no connection between the cells and the rods, I'm concerned that there may be some inadvertent touching happening (plus I'd strongly advise insulating those rods anyway).

I'm still curious about measuring voltage from a battery terminal to the rods.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Are the threaded rods that make up your compression setup insulated (inside / in-between the cells)? E.g. covered with a hose? I can't tell from the pictures.

Is there measurable voltage between any of the rods and the battery terminals?

No, the rods aren't insulated.

The top rods have only contact with the 280Ah cells who have no damages on the blue wrap.

The rods have no connection with eachother.

I did notice that the casing of the cells are - 3.33 volt, like the negative terminal.
Trying to measure from the laser qr code or the sticker (light blue) of the pressure seal gave 0, just like the blue wrap or black top.
The edge of the seal where it shows aluminium, there I can measure the voltage

 

[Frank in Thailand]

OK I see your video now - but even though visually it seems there's no connection between the cells and the rods, I'm concerned that there may be some inadvertent touching happening (plus I'd strongly advise insulating those rods anyway).

I'm still curious about measuring voltage from a battery terminal to the rods.

From terminal to the rods shows 0.00, while 2 rods show different voltages

 

[cinergi]

From terminal to the rods shows 0.00, while 2 rods show different voltages

OK, from the rods that show voltage to the battery terminal, test that rod with the positive and negative of *every* cell in the pack ... any 0's?

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Just a voltage difference between you and the rods.
Fuel tankers have a earth lead they connect to the fuel tanks before refilling.
An earth strap on your boots?

You really need to fix this... do you have a pacemaker....or even worse: a $800 smartwatch??


Probably need to earth each rod to the frame. Wrapping your cells with tin foil before binding them isn't so silly.
Earthing is only a generic term. In most cases establishing a connection between two sites of PD is the aim.

Edit- ''You can't get emf with dc!" With switchmode electronics isn't DC just AC with zero V set lower?

It can be leakage.

But what is leakage?
It's not solid, not liquid..
So?
Is it EMF?
Or does it have different scientific name??

I'm the noob here, I really do not know.

Wrapping with tin foil and grounding this foil is probably the most easy way to get rid of the "leakage".

Not solving it.

I'm not that smart, but in my book leaking is never good,and all that got leaked out, you can not use.

No idea on how to measure how much we talk about.
kWh wise 0.0000 close to nothing?
Or?

Making Faraday cage and grounding this is the best solution to avoid problems like getting shocked.

Probably the time of day will make difference also, as around 10 am cells charge with +/- 4000 watt.
during the video it was early

 

[Frank in Thailand]

OK, from the rods that show voltage to the battery terminal, test that rod with the positive and negative of *every* cell in the pack ... any 0's?

I tested 4 different parallel sets, 50%, all 0
And no other cells have connection with those rods

 

[Frank in Thailand]

I tested 4 different parallel sets, 50%, all 0
And no other cells have connection with those rods

As you can see, the 3 rods are sided by 2 x 2 x 2 cells sets.
2 parallel, both sides.

Measure them, and all cells that could possibly make contact are tested.

Even if it would have contact with one or more cells, they are coated.
Even if the coating is damage where I can not see, then it should be 3.33 negative.

Not the different voltages we see in the videoz

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Leaking...
Sounds just as possible as EMF, where I think leaking is EMF.

Reading the Wikipedia stuff about this subject it's a phenomenal that was seen +150 years ago, "leaking" into iron rod.

It's hard to find stuff ONLY about electricity, and not magnetic.
If I wouldhabe a compass it probably would go nuts above the battery.

The leaking in a rod as described on Wikipedia was the closest thing I could find that describes the same thing.

There it's called EMF

 

[cinergi]

I tested 4 different parallel sets, 50%, all 0
And no other cells have connection with those rods

Ah, I misunderstood your previous reply. Are you able to shut down the equipment in the area and observe the voltages go to zero? They shouldn't hold voltage if nothing is inducing it. Heck, this would mean that walking around with 2 rods in your hands are picking up something from somewhere in that room - because you're showing it happening to rods that have no cells between them -- meaning it has nothing to do with the cells/battery.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Ah, I misunderstood your previous reply. Are you able to shut down the equipment in the area and observe the voltages go to zero? They shouldn't hold voltage if nothing is inducing it. Heck, this would mean that walking around with 2 rods in your hands are picking up something from somewhere in that room - because you're showing it happening to rods that have no cells between them -- meaning it has nothing to do with the cells/battery.

The rods have the 280Ah cells in the back on both sides.

I tested those cells +/- (4 x 2 parallel) and the 3 rods that are in-between them.

If I disconnect the battery from the Inverter and discharge them, I'm quite positive it would not charge this much.

There needs to be movement for leaking can occur.

It's NOT Falce contact.
Obviously that is something I tested first.

It's not constant.
It builds up, and is quickly discharged when in contact with "ground".

I've seen voltage up and over 40 volts.

I thought about static electricity, to my knowledge that's high voltage.

Humidity is "low" 50%
The air is filtered in the the electronica room.

This is what happens, perhaps "no one else" have this issue, perhaps many have, but never touched the rods days after installation.

Or they did proper grounding, something I didn't do.

All possible.

Yes, I will start grounding today.
Include the metal roof to the 6 lightning rods in the soil.
I have separate rod for the room, no direct contact with the rebars or concrete.

During the build I thought about how the grounding for lighting and electrical systems better be split, as I'm sure most appliances won't like the thousands of volts from lighting

 

[cinergi]

You can certainly ground them and call it a day, but personally I'd want to explain it. I'd start by creating the same rod structure with no cells in them and see if anything builds up. Follow up with cells in between, but nothing connected. Keep going until the phenomenon occurs.

While I haven't tested the voltages of the rods in my system, I touch them all the time without being electrocuted. I'm sure others here have as well -- so we're all very curious what your circumstances are so the rest of us can benefit from this knowledge and prevent similar issues.

Thanks!

 

[Frank in Thailand]

You can certainly ground them and call it a day, but personally I'd want to explain it. I'd start by creating the same rod structure with no cells in them and see if anything builds up. Follow up with cells in between, but nothing connected. Keep going until the phenomenon occurs.

While I haven't tested the voltages of the rods in my system, I touch them all the time without being electrocuted. I'm sure others here have as well -- so we're all very curious what your circumstances are so the rest of us can benefit from this knowledge and prevent similar issues.

Thanks!

Yes, I can and will do this.
I need to rebuild the cells as I need to shuffle the 152Ah cells.

Some on the lower section have "delicate" threads... I used them too often with bolts ;-(

I already tried to fix one with helicoil, that didn't work out, At ALL!
The thread cutting rod have a 3mm tapered end, smaller.
You have just 3.5 mm of the 6.5mm left, as the first 3 mm don't get thread.

I know there are more expensive kits that uses 3 or 5 different rods to make thread, they have almost no loss.
I didn't have them.

Long story short, 2 components epoxy is now the base for the threaded terminal on that cell.

As understandable, I need that cell on top, so I can more easily attach the bus-bar with alternative method.

Threaded rods/bolts aren't the only system to make good (or good enough) contact.

As result, all cells are removed, and the whole setup is done again.

One thing that I will do different,that probably might solve the issue, is to better seal the bus-bars.

They are now mostly blank, no shrink wrap.

I also probably will use tube around the rods to prevent issues.

If the electricity charging issue still occur, it's for sure magnetic, EMF.

If it doesn't, it was leaking.

It's not possible for me to just make test setup.

Changing the batteries takes two or three days for me.
(80 cells!)
My personal energy is limited due medical conditions.

I was happy to have the power back up and running with just the 280Ah connected, after countering the thread issues with the 152ah's.

That took me 8 days to build.
During daytime we have electricity, the Revo II can work without battery.
After 16.30... no electricity till 09.00

Doable, not ideal.

 

[hankcurt]

@fhorst , this is an interesting problem. I don't have a new answer to suggest, but just some things to think about.

To feel a shock from DC power, electric current has to flow through your body. You have to have completed a circuit. If you touch something at 40V but have no connection somewhere else on your body to complete the circuit you won't feel anything.

You are working barefoot, and I assume you get shocked when you touch only one rod, so the circuit you are completing is from your threaded rod, thought your body, through your floor, and back into your system somewhere it is grounded. My best example of this is when I was young, I wanted to move a telephone jack in my basement. I was barefoot and putting the wire on the terminal coming from the phone company. It runs at about 40V. When I touched the terminal, I got shocked. I had never been shocked working on telephone equipment before. Too lazy to go get my shoes, I had a plastic garbage back nearby. I stood on the garbage bag and could touch the terminal and not feel any shock, because it insulated my feet, and I no longer completed the circuit with my body.

Your experience may be different than most others because very few people are working on their batteries while barefoot on a concrete floor. For safety, it is a good idea to wear insulating shoes while doing this work.

If the threaded rod is in contact with the case of the cell, it can get a voltage on it. I agree with others who suggest adding tubing around the rod to protect the blue wrapper from getting cut by the threaded rod.

The video is very interesting. But in the video, you measure from threaded rod to threaded rod. This is not what your body feels. Do you have a good metal connection to your foundation so that you could measure from threaded rod to metal in your cement floor?

I agree with others that it is very important to figure this out. Be safe.

 

[ArthurEld]

Don't make me wear shoes ?️

 

[Frank in Thailand]

I used to have rubber slab to stand on when working with the lead acid battery.

That got lost in transition...
Better find it back

I agree, it's strange, and not safe.
How bad/ not safe highly depending on the course of the problem.

One thing keeps bugging me.
"Leaking current/voltage" on relative lower voltage, but high capacity (1016Ah)

I don't see any sparks or so, at all!
How does it leak?
And how much leaks?
How much distance can it travel?

I usually wear rubber gloves when working, that is good enough, but won't protect my arms and legs..
Rubber slab are pond foil sheets of 0.8 mm thick 4 layer should be perfect safe.

I know how to work safely with high current, just never experienced this.

So I share to get more insight on what is going on!

 

[sunshine]

Probably the time of day will make difference also

Seasonal as well.
Probably you are having a period of low humidity.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

It's a few days later.

Grounding rod installed and connected to my "home grid" and appliances.

I need to find copper clamp, for now this will do.
About 180cm into the soil.


I relocated the mining equipment to our room.
Cold season now, why not use the heat
Cold in night temperature below 15 Celcius...
For my wife and kids cold enough to wear winter jacket in the morning!!
(Pussies, not used to real cold)

For when it moves back (Februari/March) I prepared "EMF shield" made from simple chicken wire.(grounded)
If it is a problem, it will be low frequency, the holes are small enough.



Leakage, EMF, what ever it is/was.....
Things where getting high enough charged to "bite".

After using my grounding rod, that disappeared.

Obviously,
I do need to ground the threaded rods, and electric equipment.

I never realized how important that is.
And what the effects of not grounding are, how it can slowly charge your equipment housing up to a point where it "bites" or probably will give errors in the equipment.

My Samsung "inverter type" refrigerator have 2 wire plug, and separate ground cable on the base.
Probably Thai logic...
If it needs to be grounded (and according to the manual it needs to be) why not use the 3 wire power plug that is invented to do just that??